Ken Patera

[Matt D]

Jake Roberts? Worked Dibiase and Andre in WWF when they were the top heels and then Savage when he was a top face (and main evented a lot of B/C shows vs Rude, no?). Had the big Mohammed Ali match in Mid South. Worked Sting in WCW. It's a stretch before and after that but I know he did some stuff in GA close to the top and then he'd work close to the top briefly in SMW and ECW?

[Dylan Waco]

Jake is not a bad name to throw in as a guy who is more mobile than we may remember (though he was never on top in ECW or even a fixture there). He also had that run in AAA where he was a part of some huge shows.

 

Having said that there is a pretty big difference between Jake - who was never really a main eventer in the WWF, though he flirted with the top of the cards at time - and Patera who's debut match for the promotion was v. Bruno in MSG.

 

More to the point (and not to repeat myself), but Patera DREW all of those places I listed. He challenged Rich on top at the Omni, Lawler on top at MSC, Bruno, Pedro, Backlund, Andre and Dusty in all the big WWF markets and other big buildings (multiple times - he seemed to be a bit of a go to guy for Andre across multiple territories actually), Atlas, Wahoo and Steamboat around the big loop for Crockett, Graham in Dallas and all the major AWA towns (in his rookie year), v. High Flyers for a super hot run in all the AWA towns, runs v. Hogan as Bock's gatekeeper in the AWA, NWA title shots in the Kiel and in OK, farmed out matches on top in Toronto and Montreal v. guys like Backlund, second from the top v. Dusty in Florida at the huge Superbowl show, hot house show with Studd v. Andre and friends including the show that is widely credited with breaking Detroit open as a WWF market (IIRC), et. I mean I am obviously lobbying here, but my point is that the scope here is a LOT different than what we saw from Jake, Luger or Sting.

[Dylan Waco]

Let's look at this another way just for fun if you guys will indulge me.

 

What is the argument for Ted Dibiase as a guy who gets in by fiat? I'm not saying he has no argument there (though I think Ted is a guy who probably should have been put to a vote, but whatever), but what is his resume and what gets him in?

 

Now compare that to Patera.

 

Unless we pretend Ted's years in Money Inc and managing Tatanka were the tipping point that made him a lock via "longevity," I can't see a real measurable gap between Dibiase and Patera as candidates. Certainly not enough of one where one guy was non-controversially put in by fiat in the first class and the other guy was one and done on the ballot

[jdw]

Dick Murdoch is arguable and has a much bigger international profile, but I don't know that he has a string of programs/feuds with names quite like that (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

I think we've talked before in the past on how both Murdoch and Ted have been overrated in the WON Era for just how "big" they were in Japan. Neither were at that top tier like Hansen or Destroyer.

 

In turn, Patera challenged Baba for the PWF Title, Baba & Jumbo for the Int'l Tag Title, and Inoki for the NWF Title (twice). So he didn't pull an airball in Japan.

 

John

[Matt D]

Dylan, what about Sid as a guy who was in a bunch of places on top of the cards? I mean he's in the Sting/Luger/Jake class, but he's still in that class, maybe?

[Loss]

I'm not putting up some of these names because I think they're better, but rather because they are worth discussing in comparison with Patera:

 

Adrian Adonis

Iron Sheik

Ivan Koloff

Greg Valentine

[Dylan Waco]

Not sure about the comp with Sheik. He might loosely fit some aspects of the terms I laid out, but I think you would really have to stretch it.

 

Adonis I sort of see as a lesser version of Patera in the sense that he got the main event runs, but they tended to be in smaller promotions, or they were shorter/less significant versions of what Patera had. I also don't think he has quite the cast of opponents or main event slots on the biggest shows that Patera has. But he's a reasonably good comp within the rough guidelines I laid out.

 

Valentine is a good pick and will likely be my next "project" in terms of being a guy I want to focus more on and dig into with a results sweep. I do not think he was a star in demand across as broad a geographical era as Patera, but he comes close to having the same sort of record with marquee feuds against big names. He is also the only wrestler in history to be a three time winner of the PWI Most Hated Wrestler of The Year Award which I thought was amazing when I stumbled across it the other night.

 

Ivan probably fits pretty well too

[Ricky Jackson]

Valentine is a good pick and will likely be my next "project" in terms of being a guy I want to focus more on and dig into with a results sweep.

Good call, and I'm looking forward to reading it. Valentine is someone I've really become interested in during the footage explosion of the last few years. In his prime years he was almost the perfect heel in the way he projected being a despicable asshole with really no redeemable qualities (and he had a nasty racist streak), to the point it's hard to ever picture him as a babyface. He was also a great worker (before he stopped caring around 87 or so), good talker and as far as I know a decent draw. He maybe didn't work on top in as many territories as Patera, but he was a mainstay and top star in two of the biggest ones, NY and the Carolinas, during a period, roughly 77-85, when both were usually either hot or doing consistently strong business.

[Dylan Waco]

Valentine probably got less consistent when the Dream Team started to wind down, but he still had some pretty great matches after that point. I actually think he had a very underrated year in 89.

[Ricky Jackson]

Yeah, I've always been a fan of the Garvin feud, and I forgot to mention his tag work, which was strong, even as late as 92 with Terry Taylor (a team I really liked at the time).

 

And seeing this is a board of revisionist opinion, anyone care to pimp any Rhythm and Blues matches?

[Matt D]

Part of me wants to go back and watch a lot of HTM to see how smart he really was. The rest of me really sort of doesn't.

[JerryvonKramer]

Let's look at this another way just for fun if you guys will indulge me.

 

What is the argument for Ted Dibiase as a guy who gets in by fiat? I'm not saying he has no argument there (though I think Ted is a guy who probably should have been put to a vote, but whatever), but what is his resume and what gets him in?

 

Now compare that to Patera.

 

Unless we pretend Ted's years in Money Inc and managing Tatanka were the tipping point that made him a lock via "longevity," I can't see a real measurable gap between Dibiase and Patera as candidates. Certainly not enough of one where one guy was non-controversially put in by fiat in the first class and the other guy was one and done on the ballot

I don't mind pimping DiBiase vs Patera.

 

This is actually quite easy. All of your Patera stuff is roughly equal to all of DiBiase's MidSouth stuff. He was the mainevent lock for Watts for about 6-7 years.

 

Arguably his highs -- the angle and match with Flair, the Duggan match, the JYD and ratpack angles -- are higher than Patera's.

 

And tagging with Stan Hansen can't be sniffed at either for general "cred", even if his All-Japan stuff isn't top end. I liked his matches on the 80s set more than most, but then I'm probably in the top 20 DiBiase marks on earth, right behind Dave Meltzer.

 

That means Million Dollar Man is BONUS, that is ON TOP of whatever he's putting up against Patera from his Watts days.

 

Again, there is perspective here. Meltzer had DiBiase as a top 5 or top 10 US worker for the entirety of the 80s. I happen to agree with him. WWF wasn't a workrate promotion. Ted went in there and consistently gave a great performance and consistently gave us **** matches against good opponents (Savage, Bret) and matches in the **1/2 range against any old opponent. His decent matches with Warrior, Virgil and wet-behind-the-ears Dustin Rhodes are enough to cement his status as a "broomstick worker". He was always over and he drew.

 

Let's call Money Inc Ted's decline and the contrast with Patera couldn't be greater. Patera in decline was just sad. Ted in decline was working decent cage matches with the Steiners and helping to get Sean Waltman and Razor Ramon over and let's not forget that the match at Wrestlemania 9 was billed as a "co-main event". So he was in a Mania main event the year he retired. What did Patera do the year he retired?

 

As much as you love Patera, Dylan, I don't think this one can be done. Even allowing for Meltzer-love, Ted is a lock for the HoF first based on being Watts's top worker, and then for being one of the greatest heels of all time in WWF.

[Dylan Waco]

Thanks for the try Jerry, but I'm not buying the degree of difference you are selling and nothing in that post really made me think twice. A couple of things before I get to the meat of the post.

 

1. "As much as you love Patera, Dylan...." isn't really a number that works. Of the three guys I've focused on over the last year as candidates, Patera is a distant third in terms of who I like/enjoy watching behind Blackwell and Rose. I like Patera, but I'm not sure he's one of my 200 favorite wrestlers. The reason I became interested in him is because of how much his career deviated from my preconceived notion of him as a fan who's initial exposure was the bad post-prison face run. It's an exercise in curiosity and discovery not validation of a hero or even trying to talk up a favorite. In fact I think your analysis has a lot more to do with the fact that you're "probably in the top 20 DiBiase marks on earth" than mine does with any alleged "love" for Patera.

 

2. I think the post-peak/decline stuff is really irrelevant, particularly in this case. Patera had a rough post-prime, but it was also a very brief post-prime by the standards of many guys who will slink on forever in irrelevancy or obscurity. Dibiase had a more notable post-prime, but there is NO ONE who seriously believes that had any factor in getting him in the HoF as a fiat candidate. Or at least I hope there isn't. I mean you don't believe that Dave sat there and said "well I think what puts Ted in as an automatic inductee was his stellar work managing Bam Bam Bigelow" do you? The case for Ted is mid/late 70's through 89/90. The case for Patera is 72-85. That is the relevant point of comparison.

 

Now onto the meat.

 

 

This is actually quite easy. All of your Patera stuff is roughly equal to all of DiBiase's MidSouth stuff. He was the mainevent lock for Watts for about 6-7 years.

Not really. Not even close actually.

 

"All of my Patera stuff" includes 12.5 years and features Patera headlining in virtually every major wrestling town in the U.S. and Canada, against nearly every major name of his era. Dibiase had a great run in Mid-South, but to claim that run is equivalent of Patera's ENTIRE run requires more than just an assertion. Where is the record? I'm not shitting on Dibiase's run, but being number two in the territory to JYD (when the territory by all accounts was dead before him) and then taking up the mantel for him for a couple of years as the territory cooled off is not the equivalent of "drew money v. Bruno, Backlund, Dusty, Andre and Morales in the WWF, v. Watts in Oklahoma, v. a variety of people as a major star in St. Louis, v. Atlas, Wahoo, and others in MACW, v. Lawler in Memphis, v. Backlund in Toronto as a farmed out match that was hot in MLG, v. Graham as a rookie in the AWA and Texas, v. Rich at the hot of his popularity in GCW, as gatekeeper v. Hogan in post-prime in AWA, v. Flyers as a member of Sheiks, w/Studd v. Andre and the friends in the WWF, et." If you are being objective it's simply impossible to claim Dibiase Mid-South = Patera from 72-85. Even claiming JYD's Mid-South run (and he ignited the territory, turned NO into the hottest city in wrestling, set records all over the loop, et.) is equal to Patera's 12.5 year pre-prison career is something you would have an extremely difficult job selling me on.

 

Arguably his highs -- the angle and match with Flair, the Duggan match, the JYD and ratpack angles -- are higher than Patera's.

In what way? Artistically? Maybe, perhaps even definitely. Although the Patera/White Wolf angle is very memorable, as was the feats of strength angle with Atlas, the Patera "sellout" angle with Adnan, the angle with Andre getting his hair cut, et. As far as highs as a draw? Well Dibiase had his value to be sure and it was clear that he could get people into the buildings. But it's not at all clear that these feuds made more money than Patera's top feuds did. In fact it's almost certainly not true.

 

Now one could say "well look at Patera, the guy was working the biggest stars at their peak in hot areas." But that's really the point. Patera was brought in to Oklahoma, destroyed Watts on tv and OK got hot. By the end the non-native Patera was getting NWA title shots which was not at all common for that territory. He DEBUTED for the WWF in the Garden v. Bruno and then got ANOTHER run v. Bruno later. In fact Patera got multiple house shows runs v. Bruno and Backlund, which is a tell tale sign that the office saw him as a major heel drawing card. The Backlund feud was so hot and well regarded it was farmed out to other places. Patera was also a go to opponent for Andre and Dusty in both the WWF and elsewhere. This is to say nothing of his value in St. Louis where he was the Missouri champ twice and got NWA title shots, neither of which were things Muchnick just hurled around to random people. He won the PWI Most Hated Wrestler of the Year Award twice and was in the top five two other times. We can laugh about that, but the reality is those awards were pretty good indicators during the era, particularly in regards to the WWF. When he left the WWF he was brought in as Rich's rival in GCW at a point where Rich was the hottest babyface in the nation. This is to say nothing of his run in MACW or his post-prime work where he was consistently positioned at or near the top of the card prior to his prison stint.

 

So we can say "I thought Dibiase's angles were cooler" and I'd probably be inclined to agree. But I don't think we can say "Dibiase's angles and feuds were more successful." It's simply not clear that they were and if anything the evidence would trend the other way. And "Dibiase had more to do with those runs than Patera did his" ignores the fact that Patera was wildly in demand with promoters all over the country.

 

And tagging with Stan Hansen can't be sniffed at either for general "cred", even if his All-Japan stuff isn't top end. I liked his matches on the 80s set more than most, but then I'm probably in the top 20 DiBiase marks on earth, right behind Dave Meltzer.

I think this is peripheral to his case. I get that you like the matches and having international credibility is not irrelevant in these matters, but I don't think it's a key building block anymore than Patera's work in Japan would be a building block for his case. It's their as padding at most.

 

 

That means Million Dollar Man is BONUS, that is ON TOP of whatever he's putting up against Patera from his Watts days.

Again, not really. You are either inflating Dibiase's Mid-South run or deflating Patera's 12.5 year run as a top of the card talent in multiple territories. I can't tell which and it's possible it is both. There are a few ways you could breakdown this comparison, but "Mid-South v. all of Patera's pre-prison work, then throw on the WWF stuff for Dibiase to fatten him up" isn't really one of them.

 

How do their top feuds compare in terms of importance to promotion/drawing power, et? How do their careers in the WWF stack up next to each other? How do their careers in places outside their "home base" compare? Is Dibiase's value to Mid South more impressive than Patera's value as a guy who could be brought in anywhere against anyone and draw? Who's title runs carried more weight/were more significant?

 

Now it is possible to break all of this down and come to the conclusion that Dibiase's resume is better than Patera's. What I don't think it is possible to do is make those comparisons and come to the conclusion that Dibiase is a vastly superior candidate to the point where Teddy is fiat and Patera is peripheral. Not even close.

 

As an aside I think we all tend to romanticize and overrate the MDM character as a draw. I'm not saying he wasn't a draw and I freely admit I have not closely looked at the numbers. He was clearly a big part of the Andre/Hogan stuff and the Megapowers feud did very well as I recall. But as a money drawing character the run was not as long as we may think. I've seen people criticize the brevity of Patera's run as a true main event draw as a reason to keep him out, but I don't think Dibiase's run is any longer even if you add Mid-South and WWF together.

 

I'm also not certain Dibiase would stack up as well in the particulars to Orndorff, Piper and other top dog heels from the rough time period. It's something I'd like to see researched and analyzed but I'm not going to be the one to do it.

 

Again, there is perspective here. Meltzer had DiBiase as a top 5 or top 10 US worker for the entirety of the 80s. I happen to agree with him. WWF wasn't a workrate promotion. Ted went in there and consistently gave a great performance and consistently gave us **** matches against good opponents (Savage, Bret) and matches in the **1/2 range against any old opponent. His decent matches with Warrior, Virgil and wet-behind-the-ears Dustin Rhodes are enough to cement his status as a "broomstick worker". He was always over and he drew.

I doubt Ted would be in my top ten U.S. workers from the period but he certainly has an advantage over Patera in regard to work. If you are someone who regards that as a MASSIVE factor in HoF voting you could argue that Ted distances himself a bit from Patera, but a. I'm not one of those people and b. we do not have the scope of Patera's career that we have of Ted's. What we have of Patera tends to range from "very good" to "great." It is not all together clear to me that Dibiase was a vastly superior worker to Patera based on the footage we actually have. I suspect if we had more Patera in MACW and earlier in his career he would be seen as someone closer to Ted's "peer group" in that regard than not.

[King Solomon]

Thanks for the try Jerry, but I'm not buying the degree of difference you are selling and nothing in that post really made me think twice. A couple of things before I get to the meat of the post.

 

1. "As much as you love Patera, Dylan...." isn't really a number that works. Of the three guys I've focused on over the last year as candidates, Patera is a distant third in terms of who I like/enjoy watching behind Blackwell and Rose. I like Patera, but I'm not sure he's one of my 200 favorite wrestlers. The reason I became interested in him is because of how much his career deviated from my preconceived notion of him as a fan who's initial exposure was the bad post-prison face run. It's an exercise in curiosity and discovery not validation of a hero or even trying to talk up a favorite. In fact I think your analysis has a lot more to do with the fact that you're "probably in the top 20 DiBiase marks on earth" than mine does with any alleged "love" for Patera.

 

2. I think the post-peak/decline stuff is really irrelevant, particularly in this case. Patera had a rough post-prime, but it was also a very brief post-prime by the standards of many guys who will slink on forever in irrelevancy or obscurity. Dibiase had a more notable post-prime, but there is NO ONE who seriously believes that had any factor in getting him in the HoF as a fiat candidate. Or at least I hope there isn't. I mean you don't believe that Dave sat there and said "well I think what puts Ted in as an automatic inductee was his stellar work managing Bam Bam Bigelow" do you? The case for Ted is mid/late 70's through 89/90. The case for Patera is 72-85. That is the relevant point of comparison.

 

Now onto the meat.

 

 

This is actually quite easy. All of your Patera stuff is roughly equal to all of DiBiase's MidSouth stuff. He was the mainevent lock for Watts for about 6-7 years.

Not really. Not even close actually.

 

"All of my Patera stuff" includes 12.5 years and features Patera headlining in virtually every major wrestling town in the U.S. and Canada, against nearly every major name of his era. Dibiase had a great run in Mid-South, but to claim that run is equivalent of Patera's ENTIRE run requires more than just an assertion. Where is the record? I'm not shitting on Dibiase's run, but being number two in the territory to JYD (when the territory by all accounts was dead before him) and then taking up the mantel for him for a couple of years as the territory cooled off is not the equivalent of "drew money v. Bruno, Backlund, Dusty, Andre and Morales in the WWF, v. Watts in Oklahoma, v. a variety of people as a major star in St. Louis, v. Atlas, Wahoo, and others in MACW, v. Lawler in Memphis, v. Backlund in Toronto as a farmed out match that was hot in MLG, v. Graham as a rookie in the AWA and Texas, v. Rich at the hot of his popularity in GCW, as gatekeeper v. Hogan in post-prime in AWA, v. Flyers as a member of Sheiks, w/Studd v. Andre and the friends in the WWF, et." If you are being objective it's simply impossible to claim Dibiase Mid-South = Patera from 72-85. Even claiming JYD's Mid-South run (and he ignited the territory, turned NO into the hottest city in wrestling, set records all over the loop, et.) is equal to Patera's 12.5 year pre-prison career is something you would have an extremely difficult job selling me on.

 

Arguably his highs -- the angle and match with Flair, the Duggan match, the JYD and ratpack angles -- are higher than Patera's.

In what way? Artistically? Maybe, perhaps even definitely. Although the Patera/White Wolf angle is very memorable, as was the feats of strength angle with Atlas, the Patera "sellout" angle with Adnan, the angle with Andre getting his hair cut, et. As far as highs as a draw? Well Dibiase had his value to be sure and it was clear that he could get people into the buildings. But it's not at all clear that these feuds made more money than Patera's top feuds did. In fact it's almost certainly not true.

 

Now one could say "well look at Patera, the guy was working the biggest stars at their peak in hot areas." But that's really the point. Patera was brought in to Oklahoma, destroyed Watts on tv and OK got hot. By the end the non-native Patera was getting NWA title shots which was not at all common for that territory. He DEBUTED for the WWF in the Garden v. Bruno and then got ANOTHER run v. Bruno later. In fact Patera got multiple house shows runs v. Bruno and Backlund, which is a tell tale sign that the office saw him as a major heel drawing card. The Backlund feud was so hot and well regarded it was farmed out to other places. Patera was also a go to opponent for Andre and Dusty in both the WWF and elsewhere. This is to say nothing of his value in St. Louis where he was the Missouri champ twice and got NWA title shots, neither of which were things Muchnick just hurled around to random people. He won the PWI Most Hated Wrestler of the Year Award twice and was in the top five two other times. We can laugh about that, but the reality is those awards were pretty good indicators during the era, particularly in regards to the WWF. When he left the WWF he was brought in as Rich's rival in GCW at a point where Rich was the hottest babyface in the nation. This is to say nothing of his run in MACW or his post-prime work where he was consistently positioned at or near the top of the card prior to his prison stint.

 

So we can say "I thought Dibiase's angles were cooler" and I'd probably be inclined to agree. But I don't think we can say "Dibiase's angles and feuds were more successful." It's simply not clear that they were and if anything the evidence would trend the other way. And "Dibiase had more to do with those runs than Patera did his" ignores the fact that Patera was wildly in demand with promoters all over the country.

 

And tagging with Stan Hansen can't be sniffed at either for general "cred", even if his All-Japan stuff isn't top end. I liked his matches on the 80s set more than most, but then I'm probably in the top 20 DiBiase marks on earth, right behind Dave Meltzer.

I think this is peripheral to his case. I get that you like the matches and having international credibility is not irrelevant in these matters, but I don't think it's a key building block anymore than Patera's work in Japan would be a building block for his case. It's their as padding at most.

 

 

That means Million Dollar Man is BONUS, that is ON TOP of whatever he's putting up against Patera from his Watts days.

Again, not really. You are either inflating Dibiase's Mid-South run or deflating Patera's 12.5 year run as a top of the card talent in multiple territories. I can't tell which and it's possible it is both. There are a few ways you could breakdown this comparison, but "Mid-South v. all of Patera's pre-prison work, then throw on the WWF stuff for Dibiase to fatten him up" isn't really one of them.

 

How do their top feuds compare in terms of importance to promotion/drawing power, et? How do their careers in the WWF stack up next to each other? How do their careers in places outside their "home base" compare? Is Dibiase's value to Mid South more impressive than Patera's value as a guy who could be brought in anywhere against anyone and draw? Who's title runs carried more weight/were more significant?

 

Now it is possible to break all of this down and come to the conclusion that Dibiase's resume is better than Patera's. What I don't think it is possible to do is make those comparisons and come to the conclusion that Dibiase is a vastly superior candidate to the point where Teddy is fiat and Patera is peripheral. Not even close.

 

As an aside I think we all tend to romanticize and overrate the MDM character as a draw. I'm not saying he wasn't a draw and I freely admit I have not closely looked at the numbers. He was clearly a big part of the Andre/Hogan stuff and the Megapowers feud did very well as I recall. But as a money drawing character the run was not as long as we may think. I've seen people criticize the brevity of Patera's run as a true main event draw as a reason to keep him out, but I don't think Dibiase's run is any longer even if you add Mid-South and WWF together.

 

I'm also not certain Dibiase would stack up as well in the particulars to Orndorff, Piper and other top dog heels from the rough time period. It's something I'd like to see researched and analyzed but I'm not going to be the one to do it.

 

Again, there is perspective here. Meltzer had DiBiase as a top 5 or top 10 US worker for the entirety of the 80s. I happen to agree with him. WWF wasn't a workrate promotion. Ted went in there and consistently gave a great performance and consistently gave us **** matches against good opponents (Savage, Bret) and matches in the **1/2 range against any old opponent. His decent matches with Warrior, Virgil and wet-behind-the-ears Dustin Rhodes are enough to cement his status as a "broomstick worker". He was always over and he drew.

I doubt Ted would be in my top ten U.S. workers from the period but he certainly has an advantage over Patera in regard to work. If you are someone who regards that as a MASSIVE factor in HoF voting you could argue that Ted distances himself a bit from Patera, but a. I'm not one of those people and b. we do not have the scope of Patera's career that we have of Ted's. What we have of Patera tends to range from "very good" to "great." It is not all together clear to me that Dibiase was a vastly superior worker to Patera based on the footage we actually have. I suspect if we had more Patera in MACW and earlier in his career he would be seen as someone closer to Ted's "peer group" in that regard than not.

 

 

This^^

 

The Million Dollar Man Charachter is vastly overrated in my opinion and I remember Patera being hot as hell in the WWF challenging Bruno and Backlund in MSG when that was the pinnacle of any wrestlers career. I think too many people look at things thru a late 80's lens instead of a lens for a particular wrestlers prime. I had a friend who always judged Jimmy Snuka on his 1989-91 WWF run because that's all they saw of him but I told them watch his Mid Atlantic, Georgia, Japan, early WWF and the little footager that is available from Portland. You have to place yourself in each given time period rather than the period that you were watching wrestling.

[Matt D]

It would be hilariously hypocritical if I targeted Ted Dibiase for not having great matches.

 

Also i want to see the Patera/Tommy Rich feud.

[King Solomon]

Let's look at this another way just for fun if you guys will indulge me.

 

What is the argument for Ted Dibiase as a guy who gets in by fiat? I'm not saying he has no argument there (though I think Ted is a guy who probably should have been put to a vote, but whatever), but what is his resume and what gets him in?

 

Now compare that to Patera.

 

Unless we pretend Ted's years in Money Inc and managing Tatanka were the tipping point that made him a lock via "longevity," I can't see a real measurable gap between Dibiase and Patera as candidates. Certainly not enough of one where one guy was non-controversially put in by fiat in the first class and the other guy was one and done on the ballot

I don't mind pimping DiBiase vs Patera.

 

This is actually quite easy. All of your Patera stuff is roughly equal to all of DiBiase's MidSouth stuff. He was the mainevent lock for Watts for about 6-7 years.

 

Arguably his highs -- the angle and match with Flair, the Duggan match, the JYD and ratpack angles -- are higher than Patera's.

 

And tagging with Stan Hansen can't be sniffed at either for general "cred", even if his All-Japan stuff isn't top end. I liked his matches on the 80s set more than most, but then I'm probably in the top 20 DiBiase marks on earth, right behind Dave Meltzer.

 

That means Million Dollar Man is BONUS, that is ON TOP of whatever he's putting up against Patera from his Watts days.

 

Again, there is perspective here. Meltzer had DiBiase as a top 5 or top 10 US worker for the entirety of the 80s. I happen to agree with him. WWF wasn't a workrate promotion. Ted went in there and consistently gave a great performance and consistently gave us **** matches against good opponents (Savage, Bret) and matches in the **1/2 range against any old opponent. His decent matches with Warrior, Virgil and wet-behind-the-ears Dustin Rhodes are enough to cement his status as a "broomstick worker". He was always over and he drew.

 

Let's call Money Inc Ted's decline and the contrast with Patera couldn't be greater. Patera in decline was just sad. Ted in decline was working decent cage matches with the Steiners and helping to get Sean Waltman and Razor Ramon over and let's not forget that the match at Wrestlemania 9 was billed as a "co-main event". So he was in a Mania main event the year he retired. What did Patera do the year he retired?

 

As much as you love Patera, Dylan, I don't think this one can be done. Even allowing for Meltzer-love, Ted is a lock for the HoF first based on being Watts's top worker, and then for being one of the greatest heels of all time in WWF.

 

 

"Arguably his highs -- the angle and match with Flair, the Duggan match, the JYD and ratpack angles -- are higher than Patera's."

 

I agree with Dylan, more entertaining possibly and I would be inclined to agree but more payoff at the gate no way and that is what the bottom line is. I don't think there was any real big payoff in the Flair-Murdoch-Dibiase angle whereas Patera was huge in the WWF main eventing against Bruno, Morales and Backlund not to mention his AWA, Missouri, Tri States and globe trotting other territories as a top heel main eventing big cards.

[King Solomon]

Let's look at this another way just for fun if you guys will indulge me.

 

What is the argument for Ted Dibiase as a guy who gets in by fiat? I'm not saying he has no argument there (though I think Ted is a guy who probably should have been put to a vote, but whatever), but what is his resume and what gets him in?

 

Now compare that to Patera.

 

Unless we pretend Ted's years in Money Inc and managing Tatanka were the tipping point that made him a lock via "longevity," I can't see a real measurable gap between Dibiase and Patera as candidates. Certainly not enough of one where one guy was non-controversially put in by fiat in the first class and the other guy was one and done on the ballot

I don't mind pimping DiBiase vs Patera.

 

This is actually quite easy. All of your Patera stuff is roughly equal to all of DiBiase's MidSouth stuff. He was the mainevent lock for Watts for about 6-7 years.

 

Arguably his highs -- the angle and match with Flair, the Duggan match, the JYD and ratpack angles -- are higher than Patera's.

 

And tagging with Stan Hansen can't be sniffed at either for general "cred", even if his All-Japan stuff isn't top end. I liked his matches on the 80s set more than most, but then I'm probably in the top 20 DiBiase marks on earth, right behind Dave Meltzer.

 

That means Million Dollar Man is BONUS, that is ON TOP of whatever he's putting up against Patera from his Watts days.

 

Again, there is perspective here. Meltzer had DiBiase as a top 5 or top 10 US worker for the entirety of the 80s. I happen to agree with him. WWF wasn't a workrate promotion. Ted went in there and consistently gave a great performance and consistently gave us **** matches against good opponents (Savage, Bret) and matches in the **1/2 range against any old opponent. His decent matches with Warrior, Virgil and wet-behind-the-ears Dustin Rhodes are enough to cement his status as a "broomstick worker". He was always over and he drew.

 

Let's call Money Inc Ted's decline and the contrast with Patera couldn't be greater. Patera in decline was just sad. Ted in decline was working decent cage matches with the Steiners and helping to get Sean Waltman and Razor Ramon over and let's not forget that the match at Wrestlemania 9 was billed as a "co-main event". So he was in a Mania main event the year he retired. What did Patera do the year he retired?

 

As much as you love Patera, Dylan, I don't think this one can be done. Even allowing for Meltzer-love, Ted is a lock for the HoF first based on being Watts's top worker, and then for being one of the greatest heels of all time in WWF.

 

 

"Arguably his highs -- the angle and match with Flair, the Duggan match, the JYD and ratpack angles -- are higher than Patera's."

 

I agree with Dylan, more entertaining possibly and I would be inclined to agree but more payoff at the gate no way and that is what the bottom line is. I don't think there was any real big payoff in the Flair-Murdoch-Dibiase angle whereas Patera was huge in the WWF main eventing against Bruno, Morales and Backlund not to mention his AWA, Missouri, Tri States and globe trotting other territories as a top heel main eventing big cards.

 

 

I take maineventing MSG, MLG and the other big markets of the Northeast over maineventing in the Mid South area. Post 84 Mid South wasn't setting the world on fire anymore. Once Savage turned heel in 89 Dibiase was no longer the top heel. Dibiase's heel run at the top in WWF pales in comparison to Piper.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm going to have to go away and do some research on Ted to see what sort of figures we do have. My big claim, which I didn't get into here, is that the WWF used him as a draw in Texas and other states from the Watts hotbed in 87 and 88 -- as well as a main event in general vs. Savage and others.

 

I also argue he had something of a re-push in 1991 when he was managed by Sherri and may have even been positioned for another run at the world title before Flair came in. Again, need to look more closely at the booking. My point about Money Inc. stuff in 93 was that Ted's post-peak AS AN ACTIVE WORKER was a lot better than Patera's, but like you said this is peripheral and the period 92-93 is too short to really base anything on it.

 

Just some initial thoughts:

 

1. Yes, I may be selling the 12.5 years of Patera short, but reading your first few posts in this thread, you can't really say he was a top draw during his rookie years and I didn't mention Ted's early stuff either such as the early WWF run or his rookie Mid-South years. If you accept your own point that the WWF stuff is integral to Ted's case, and accept my point above that Ted's case stretches at least to 91, we're looking at the same sort of time period. About 12 or 13 years each. I'll accept that Patera's pre-prison career might be more than Ted's MidSouth run, but I also wonder if you can really put the start date at 1972?

 

I mean naturally, Patera got a lift / rub from being an Olympian and famous for his weightlifting, so his rookie career was accelerated to an extent. But from what you've written it seems like 74 would be the real starting point.

 

2. Part of your argument seems to be based around lots of different promotions booking Patera. He moved around a lot. Ted was a worker who always extremely loyal. First to Watts, then to Vince. He only left Watts once it was clear they were going to be bought out. He stayed with Vince for almost a decade.

 

From reading the WONs from the 80s -- and again we must remember Meltzer's man-love for Ted, but still -- he seemed to be one of the most coveted workers anywhere in the US. To even be considered for the world title in 83, coming from outside of the NWA as he did, is a pretty big deal. Around 86, he says there was a bidding war for Ted and that Vince had been chasing him for years and how much of a massive loss to MSW he would have been.

 

Had Ted not been so loyal for so long, do you think that any promoter in the US or Japan wouldn't have wanted him? I know this is a game of what actually happened, not of what ifs, but I don't think you can use the fact that Patera worked a lot of different promotions and drew in all of them as a case against Ted who worked for all of three in his whole career.

 

The clear indication is that Ted would have been booked and would have drawn in other places.

 

Of course, on that point, we have to be realistic about Patera and DiBiase here -- they were heels, mostly they were there for the match itself and people were paying to see the other guy as much as they were to see him get beat. There's a conversation somewhere about how much of a draw a heel can be.

 

DiBiase wasn't as good a face as he was a heel and I suspect we'll not see great numbers during his face runs. Watts has said before something like "JYD was the draw, DiBiase was the good hand, he'll give you the match -- Ted alone isn't going to draw". I accept that, but I believe that's the case for a lot of heels. I honestly believe that drawing heels are rarer than any of us might think.

 

3. About the Million Dollar Man character, he was part of the WWF's "family of faces (or heels ha ha)" for a long time. He was used in an interesting way, consistently there as a cornerstone of team evil, a kind of benchmark heel: giving the Macho King his crown and scepter, robbing Texas Tornado of his IC title, turning Bossman, turning the Nasty Boys, turning the Natural Disasters. Realistically his main event run was 87-8, with further brief runs on top or very near the top in 89, 90 and 91 as and when required. For most of his run he was an upper midcarder who could slot into a main event without looking out of place. But in terms of positioning, he was always made to seem like a big deal, and always much more over than your average heel.

 

It's difficult to make a case for this. Orndorff or Piper as WWF maineventers might have the edge on Ted the WWF maineventer, but what about Orndorff the midcarder?

 

Is this a HoF criteria? Being a particularly remarkable WWF upper midcarder for a sizable stretch? Maybe not on its own, but added to his stuff on top, I think it's at least another string to the bow.

 

At any rate, I strongly believe that it's *this* and mainly this, that made him a "fiat pick" in the minds of Meltzer and co back in 96 or whenever it was.

 

That's the big thing Ted has over Patera. Not drawing power or matches worked, but very prominent positioning in the WWF product at a time when it was at its most visible. In kayfabe terms Ted was not a normal heel, he never seemed like "any old heel", even towards the end (the only time I can think of when he really did is Rumble 92) -- and it's THAT which gives the Million Dollar Man character this "inflated" aura you are talking about and which I see others (King Solomon) have picked up on. That's the truth of it.

 

Now I will see if I can dig up some figures.

[jdw]

At any rate, I strongly believe that it's *this* and mainly this, that made him a "fiat pick" in the minds of Meltzer and co back in 96 or whenever it was.

Dave thought Ted was one of the best workers in the business for a long time, and a big star in a lot of places (WWF-land, GA, Wattsville, Japan). That was 100% of the reason Ted went in. There wasn't any debate or thought to it beyond Ted's picture coming up when turning the page in the Gong 1000 and:

 

"Yes"

 

Dave saw Ted as a no-brainer. Suspect if anyone asks him now, he still does. The WWF part wasn't a massive part of it relative to the rest of Ted's career: Dave loved Ted before he even got to the WWF, and never really was that high on his WWF run. Or negative to it: Ted's run in the WWF was what it was to him.

 

Not worth reading too much into it.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Ok well ignore that bit of my post ¬_¬

 

Thanks jdw

[Dooley]

The wall was already down when Ted joined the WWF. Guys like JYD had already brought the fans over from Wattsland, if you're going to use that argument.

[Dylan Waco]

"That's the big thing Ted has over Patera. Not drawing power or matches worked, but very prominent positioning in the WWF product at a time when it was at its most visible."

 

Of course this is true and it's really my point. It's a totally illegitimate and nonsense reason for Dibiase to rate over Patera. Now as I said before there ARE perfectly good arguments for Ted over Ken (and vice versa in my view). But I don't accept that the timing of when you were a drawing card heel/major star is more important than how much money you drew unless there is a case of someone being used as the catalyst for a paradigm shift and there are VERY few guys in history who can make that claim. Neither Dibiase or Patera qualify there.

 

I make note of Patera's run in full because he immediately started off as a top of the card talent. Was he a main eventer right away? No, not in the sense that he was at his true peak. Was he working in feuds positioned to draw against top names right away? Absolutely yes. Of note is the fact that Verne never really debuted guys that high up the card and the fact that he was quickly seen as valuable by other promotions who wanted a crack at making money with his talents.

 

The point is not that Dibiase was not in demand, highly coveted, et. The point is that Patera was a draw a lot of different places, in a lot of different situations and consistently positioned against the top names. Dibiase was considered and seen as an NWA title holder option - what's less remembered is that Patera was too. You can't sleep on the significance of Patera holding the I-C and the Missouri title at the same time. If one were looking for an indicator of how he was viewed by the most powerful promoters that would be it.

[JerryvonKramer]

The wall was already down when Ted joined the WWF. Guys like JYD had already brought the fans over from Wattsland, if you're going to use that argument.

I'm mainly just going to look at figures from towns with and without Ted on top and see if there's any difference.

[JerryvonKramer]

At any rate, I strongly believe that it's *this* and mainly this, that made him a "fiat pick" in the minds of Meltzer and co back in 96 or whenever it was.

Dave thought Ted was one of the best workers in the business for a long time, and a big star in a lot of places (WWF-land, GA, Wattsville, Japan). That was 100% of the reason Ted went in. There wasn't any debate or thought to it beyond Ted's picture coming up when turning the page in the Gong 1000 and:

 

"Yes"

 

Dave saw Ted as a no-brainer. Suspect if anyone asks him now, he still does. The WWF part wasn't a massive part of it relative to the rest of Ted's career: Dave loved Ted before he even got to the WWF, and never really was that high on his WWF run. Or negative to it: Ted's run in the WWF was what it was to him.

 

Not worth reading too much into it.

 

John

 

Just out of interest, how was/ is Ted regarded in Japan? Like was he thought of as Hansen's second? Was he rated? I heard his shoot a few years ago and he talked about always being appreciated there, but I don't know exactly what he meant.

[goodhelmet]

I don't pay attention to drawing power but while watching AWA footage and old WWF footage, Patera's stock as a quality wrestler is going up, up up!!! Also, the idea that Ted Dibiase was a great technical wrestler has always been bullshit. Ted's greatness was his ability to be a great heel (in the ring) and his brawling bloodbaths.