The JTTS

[ajsmith_7]

When I first saw this thread I didn't know what JTTS stood for and my first guess after a bit of reading was 'Just There To Sell' as in a jobber who gets in no offense but just sells the bigger stars moves. Now I know it means 'Jobber To The Stars' but I'm quite happy as my first guess wasn't too far out.

[jdw]

Sorry for bumping but this thread is a terrific read and makes for interesting comparison with the recent Midcarder thread.

 

Having watched a ton more JCP since the original conversation happened, I think as a promotion they had less clearly defined strata than the WWF. For example, we think of Paul Jones's army mostly being at JTTS level and the feud with Valiant being lower card fodder.

 

But in 86 and even 87 before Nikita turned, The Boogey Woogey Man was arguably number 3 face behind Dusty and Magnum. Seriously, who else did they have?

Let's look at the Bash series:

 

Flair title defense: Dusty Rhodes, Magnum T.A., Wahoo McDaniel, Ron Garvin, Ricky Morton, Robert Gibson, Road Warrior Hawk, Road Warrior Animal and Nikita Koloff (heel).

 

Midnight Express matches: Rock'n'Roll Express, Dusty Rhodes & Magnum TA, The Road Warriors

 

Many of these matches were six-person with Baby Doll on one side and Corny on the other.

 

Tully & Ole & Arn's various matches:

 

Dusty Rhodes & Road Warriors - against the Andersons & Tully (on last after Flair-Magnum)

Dusty Rhodes & Road Warrior Animal - against the Andersons (cage on last after Flair-Hawk)

Dusty Rhodes & Road Warrior Hawk - against the Andersons (cage on last after Flair-Animal)

Rock'n'Roll Express - against the Andersons

Magnum TA - against Arn

Ron Garvin - a major taped fist feud through the Bash against Tully... lots of matches

Wahoo McDaniel - strap match with Arn

Wahoo McDaniel - National Title against Tully

Sam Houston & Nelson Royal - Andersons

Don Kernodle & Italian Stallion - Andersons

Hector Guerrero - lower card against Ole

 

Because JCP had such a deep roster, on occasion guys like the Andersons would get stuck with

 

Houston & Royal & Kernodle & Stallion & Guerrero types, especially in a city where perhaps their Bash matches had run before. But those were the exceptions.

 

Nikita's various matches:

 

Magnum TA - this was the start of the Best of 7

Flair - heel challenge on a card that didn't draw flies in Memphis despite being loaded

Road Warriors - with Ivan in a double chain match

Road Warriors - with Ivan in a cage

Road Warriors - with Krusher

Road Warriors & Magnum - with the rest of the Russians in a cage

Road Warriors & Dusty - with the rest of the Russians in a cage

Road Warriors & Wahoo - with the rest of the Russians in a cage

Ron Garvin & Manny Fernandez - with Ivan in a Texas Tornado match

 

Mostly opposite Maggy or the Roadies in various configurations. The oddball match against Garvin & Manny was on a card where the Roadies teamed with Dusty against the Horsemen, while Flair defended against Maggy in Maggy's home town of Norfolk. Sometimes your normal dance partners are occupied.

 

Anyway, those were the top Heels of the promotion: Flair, Midnight Express, The Rest of the Horsemen, Nikita (with the other Russians as tag alongs). Their standard opponents:

 

Top Tier

Dusty

Maggy

Rock'n'Roll Express

Road Warriors

 

Second Tier

Garvin

Wahoo

 

Third Tier

Everyone Else

 

You could tier a card like this:

 

World Title: Dusty vs Flair

Best of 7 for US Title: Maggy vs Nikita

Rock'n'Roll Express vs Midnight Express (with for the WTT or in a six with Baby Doll & Corny)

Double Chain: Road Warriors vs Russians (Ivan & Krusher since Nikita was occupied)

Taped Fist: Garvin vs Tully

Indian Strap: Wahoo vs Jimmy Garvin (which was Wahoo's feud at the time)

 

Then you'd get into the bottom of the card such as Boogie's feud with Paul Jones' Army.

 

And those were all actual feuds / storylines at the time, including Boogie's. That was part of the strength of Dusty: there were reasons for all of those being on the card. Then there were secondary feuds even among those guys: Dusty & Maggie against the MX, everyone against Flair, Andersons vs R'n'R, etc. Even goofy Boogie had a focused feud.

 

Anyway, Boogie was below Dusty, Maggie, the R'n'R, the Roadies, Ron Garvin and Wahoo. He just has a focused feud.

 

 

I think ultimately JCP were thin in the middle. It's like there is no equivalent of a Tito or even Jim Duggan -- if there is, Valiant is probably it and he wrestles guys like Shaska Whatley.

Not really. You had Wahoo working his "regular feud" with Garvin, but also able to move up into bigger matches including challenging for the World Title. Same thing with Ron Garvin. And if you watched TV at the time, week in and week out, Garvin-Tully was a pushed feud/storyline. Every bit as much as any WWF pushed mid-card feud.

 

There's a huge gulf between the main and semi-main and the rest of the card in JCP.

Well, considering the main/semi-main went Four Matches Deep when not slapped together (Dusty match, Maggie match, R'n'R match, Roadies match), the cards were loaded.

 

Don't believe me?

 

When JCP went focused into expanded into Los Angeles in 1986, this was the card they gave to fans like me:

 

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - August 28, 1986 (10,000)

Debut at the venue

Hector Guerrero defeated the Barbarian

Jimmy Valiant defeated Shaska Whatley

Wahoo McDaniel defeated NWA National Heavyweight Champion Tully Blanchard to win the title

Dick Murdoch defeated NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson

The Road Warriors defeated Ivan Koloff & Krusher Kruschev

Magnum TA fought NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff to a no contest

NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Dusty Rhodes via disqualification

 

I never went to a WWF card in the 80s that was a loaded up as that one. Second match had a focused feud: Boogie vs Jones. "Mid card" had the Horsemen in singles, against Wahoo who had been pushed all year and the newly arriving Murdoch getting a pushed post-Bash as a player at that level. Then four big matches. In a sense, we got a Best of the Bash on the card, with the exception of Wahoo stepping in for Ron Garvin to face Tully... and they gave us a title change.

 

Post Starcade card?

 

JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - January 29, 1987 (4,750)

Todd Champion defeated Teijo Khan

Big Bubba defeated Ron Garvin in a Louisville streetfight

Dusty Rhodes defeated NWA TV Champion Tully Blanchard (w/ JJ Dillon) via disqualification at around the 9-minute mark after NWA US Tag Team Champion Barry Windham came out to counter the interference of Arn Anderson, with all four men then brawling in the ring and Windham counting a pinfall for Rhodes; after the match, Rhodes was bloodied with a shoe until Windham made the save

Barry Windham fought Arn Anderson to a no contest

NWA Tag Team Champions Rick Rude & Manny Fernandez defeated Dick Murdoch & Baron Von Raschke

NWA US Champion Nikita Koloff defeated NWA World Champion Ric Flair via disqualification

The Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) defeated Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey (w/ Jim Cornette & Big Bubba) in a scaffold match at around the 7-minute mark

 

Not entirely sure why we didn't get the R'nR challenging Rude & Raging... draw a blank. Anyway, you've got:

 

* Bubba vs Garvin in a Starcade rematch as the second match on the card

* Dusty vs Tully in a Starcade rematch as the 3rd match on the card

* Arn facing the newly arriving and getting-a-big-push Barry next

* WTT defense, though admittedly slapped together

* World Title Starcade rematch

* Starcade Scaffold rematch

 

Ummm... I'd like to find the WWF cards in Los Angeles in 1986-89 that were loaded up like this.

 

Anyway, by this time, Barry came in to be yet another challenger to Flair, while Nikita was as well.

 

If there was a problem with JCP it's that they had a bit too much talent when putting together "everyone's on the card" shows. The WWF, with their split crews, tended to have Hogan Match + #2 Match + Everyone Else cards, which on non-Hogan cards tended to be IC/WTT Match + #2 Drawing Feuding Match + Everyone Else.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Yes, Garvin was the big oversight I made in the initial post there. Not sure that Wahoo was above the Boogie Woogie Man though.

 

I STILL think the roster was weaker in the middle than you are making out. The point is that JCP could put on A strong card -- as in variations of the one you posted above, but beyond the guys in each match there were not a whole plethora of options.

 

WWF always kept at least 3 heels who could main event around plus your Kamalas and King Kong Bundys, JCP had one (Flair) -- arguably two if you count pre-turn Nikita.

 

WWF had Hogan plus a B-show face, plus another face who could be put in the semi-main or main against one of the heels not facing Hogan that night. Post-Magnum, JCP had Dusty and that's about it.

 

So in 86 say, while JCP could effectively pick a main event from Flair, Dusty and Nikita, WWF could pick one from Hogan, Piper, Orndorff, Bundy, Andre.

 

Next rung down JCP have Tully, Arn, Ole [--> Luger], Ronnie Garvin and The Road Warriors in singles or in tags. WWF had Savage, Steamboat, Tito, any 3 of the maineventers who weren't maineventing, Greg Valentine, Kamala (who could mainevent), JYD (who could main event), John Studd and arguably (pre-injury) Harley Race (who could main event)

 

There's no way of arguing that different manifestations of any of the 4 Horsemen vs. Garvin, The Road Warriors or Dusty lines up depth-wise against the almost endless possible combinations you can get in the main and semi-main from Hogan, Orndorff, Andre, Bundy, Piper, Savage, Steamboat, Tito, Valentine, Kamala, JYD, Studd or Race

 

I don't think it's even POSSIBLE to argue that JCP were "more loaded" than the WWF on top. Sure, you could get ONE amazing looking card from the available talent but what then? The same card again? And again? And again?

 

Let's go another rung down into the tag ranks and the real midcard.

 

Tagteams first. For JCP:

 

[Road Warriors], [Arn + Tully], Midnights, Rock n Roll Express, and for a while Rude and Fernandez, and then what? Sure, four of those are arguably among the greatest tag-teams of all time, but you can't really argue that FIVE tag teams is strength in depth. Again, it's one or two good cards deep. Roadies vs. Arn and Tully, Roadies vs. Mightnights, Mightnights vs. R n R, R n R vs. Arn and Tully.

 

Let's look at WWF:

 

Iron Sheik and Nikolai Volkoff, The British Bulldogs, The Islanders, The Funks, The Dreamteam, The Killer Bees, The Hart Foundation, The Rougeaus, Afa and Sika, The US Express, The Can-Am Connnection, The Young Stallions

 

I'm not doing "the math" but it's clear to see that regardless of the greatness of the JCP teams, there are more than double the amount of guys in the WWF tag ranks and, aside from the odd Volkoff or Sheik or Terry Funk match vs. Hogan on an SNME (or whatever), the vast majority of the tag teams stick to tags only. JCP frequently need to call on Hawk or Animal to main event with Flair.

 

Now the midcard:

 

JCP:

 

The Barbarian, Jimmy Garvin, Ivan Koloff, Big Bubba Rogers, Barry Windham, Kevin Sullivan, Dick Murdoch, Sam Houston, Wahoo McDaniel, Pez Whatley, Jimmy Valiant

 

WWF:

 

Adrian Adonis, George Steele, Don Muraco (could main event), Bob Orton, Hillbilly Jim, Billy Jack Haynes, Koko B. Ware, Honkytonk Man, Hercules, Butch Reed, Dino Bravo, Pedro Morales, Jake Roberts

 

JCP's lineup may look slightly stronger on paper, but remember that whoever is not in the semi-main from the maineventers and upper midcarders can also have matches with these guys. Again, it's the total possible amount of matches that you need to consider, not ONE card, but let's say 10 different cards.

 

WWF had pretty much DOUBLE JCP's roster at any given time, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that that means JCP are going to be doing a lot more rinse and repeat than WWF.

 

If you'll suffer one of my soccer analogies John: JCP had a good "starting lineup" but no one on the bench to come on. They had to field largely the same team week-in, week-out.

 

WWF had almost endless variety.

 

Ok you've got Dusty vs. Flair and Arn and Tully vs. The Roadies but what then? Flair vs. Nikita and Arn and Tully vs. R n R what then? Then you're stuck. Tully vs. Dusty part 322? Flair vs. Dusty again? Dusty and Nikta vs. Arn and Tully with Flair against Hawk? What then?

 

I don't need to write it out in full to see that this simply doesn't happen on the WWF -- hell, they ran split shows everywhere and it didn't even happen on the B shows. I don't think an argument can really be made that JCP had "too much talent" when compared with their nearest rivals.

[Matt D]

Traditionally, and this may be truer for a few years later, WWF may have HAD the opportunity for variety, but they would run the same focused cards for months while things could be almost completely different over a week span for JCP/WCW.

[tomk]

It's worth looking at the cards that jdw psoted for Los Angeles and actually comparing them to the WWF cards in major market LA around same period

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - August 20, 1986 (7,000)

Jim Brunzell fought Brutus Beefcake to a draw

Hercules pinned Tiger Chung Lee

Greg Valentine fought B. Brian Blair to a draw

Mike Rotundo & Danny Spivey defeated the Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff when Sheik was pinned after Slick accidentally hit him with his cane

Paul Orndorff pinned Tito Santana after hitting him with a foreign object handed to him by Bobby Heenan

King Kong Bundy & Big John Studd defeated Big & Super Machine via disqualification when Giant Machine interfered

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - September 26, 1986 (16,000; sell out)

Haku defeated Moondog Rex

Tama defeated Moondog Spot

Billy Jack Haynes defeated Mr. X via submission with the full nelson

Sika defeated George Wells

Nick Kiniski defeated Steve Regal

Ted Arcidi defeated Tony Garea

Lanny Poffo defeated Jack Armstrong

Tito Santana pinned Bob Orton Jr. (sub. for Adrian Adonis) via disqualification

King Harley Race defeated George Steele via disqualification

Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Paul Orndorff via disqualification

These are not really deep cards at all. The first has a match with Andre opponents and alies where he's not actually in match and a match with Hogan opponent. Second has Hogan. Pretty much evrything else is Paul Jones Army level stuff and below.

 

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - December 8, 1986 (2,500)

Sivi Afi defeated Rene Goulet

Butch Reed defeated Lanny Poffo

Jim Neidhart pinned B. Brian Blair

Bret Hart pinned Jim Brunzell

The Islanders defeated the Moondogs

WWF Tag Team Champions Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Bob Orton Jr. & Don Muraco

Hercules defeated Tito Santana

Billy Jack Haynes defeated the Iron Sheik

Adrian Adonis defeated Roddy Piper via disqualification

WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - January 24, 1987 (16,000; sell out)

Jake Roberts fought Paul Orndorff to a double count-out

Billy Jack Haynes pinned Dino Bravo

Tito Santana fought Butch Reed to a draw

Rick Martel & Tom Zenk defeated Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake

B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated Don Muraco & Bob Orton Jr.

Ron Bass pinned Cpl. Kirchner

Pedro Morales pinned Nick Kiniski

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Kamala via disqualification

[JerryvonKramer]

Try doing the same thing in 1988.

[goc]

Interesting to see how little LA drew without Hogan on the card, especially the show with Adonis/Piper on top.

[tomk]

Try doing the same thing in 1988.

 

Why?

 

1)Los Angeles does at some point in 88 became a site for Superstars tapings so there is even more jobber matches interspersed with TV angles, not sure if it is representative of standard WWF at that point.

 

2)

The WWF, with their split crews, tended to have Hogan Match + #2 Match + Everyone Else cards, which on non-Hogan cards tended to be IC/WTT Match + #2 Drawing Feuding Match + Everyone Else.

HEck look at the mania cards between 89-95. There's a huge gulf between the main and semi-main and the rest of the card in WWF on their supercards.

 

3) The big change in terms of card structure in 88 wouldn't be WWF (well Savage title is change in that with Hogan they were more willing to do Hogan match + everyone else, while with Savage they normally did a #1 and #2 match + everyone else.), but with JCP. 88 JCP had a completely different cast of characters. The whole argument you were making about roster depth was about 86-87 JCP. Jimmy Valiant wasn't even in JCP in 88, neither was Wahoo, Powers of PAin are on the top feuding with Road Warriors and then leave for WWF, Luger is face feuding with Horsemen that now include Windham, Sting is being built uo super fast, Steve Williams moves from guy in midcard to guy in Wargames matches and then back down, Tully, Arn and Ron Garvin all leave for WWF by end of year, etc. The 88 midcard feud was Jimmy Garvin v Kevin Sullivan and I think that is less defined midcard feud than the Jimmy Valiant v Paul Jones. Valiant v Jones was about sidedraining guys down while Garvin v Sullivan was about moving guys up. 88 was a very different year for JCP. Even so the shows have more depth, less of a gulf between the main and underneath.

 

 

Still the original argument was 86-87. Going "but what about 88?" isn't just moving goalposts, it's a whole new argument.

But what about 89?

[JerryvonKramer]

I would go as far as to say that you can pick any year, 86, 87, 88, 89 or 90 and WWF has a deeper roster.

 

JCP might have deeper CARDS on their house shows, but WWF had the deeper roster. It is painfully obvious. They bought the best talent from all around the country and had a roster of 60 wrestlers deep at any one point. JCP had a roster of about 30 guys at any one point, of which only really 20 or so were "names", and I'm including guys like Ivan Koloff and Jimmy Valiant in that.

 

I don't see how the argument is being made, I really don't. Do you really want me to waste an entire hour of my life breaking down Mania, Summerslam and Starrcade cards to demonstrate this?

 

I will go toe-to-toe with you and jdw on this point all week long if you want.

 

Arn and Tully were maineventers for JCP, they were midcard in WWF.

 

Road Warriors were main eventers in JCP, they were upper midcard at best in WWF.

 

Ronnie Garvin was a world champ for JCP, he was a jobber in WWF.

 

Barry Windham was a major star for JCP, he was an also ran in WWF

 

Dusty Rhodes was the top babyface for JCP, he was a comedy act in WWF.

 

Ricky Steamboat was a mainevneter for JCP, he was at IC level in WWF.

 

How long do you want to keep going?

 

This isn't to try to run JCP down or to big up WWF, but you've got to face facts. JCP couldn't have run a credible Royal Rumble because they didn't have 30 named stars, this becomes painfully obvious on shows like The Crockett Cup or any of the Battle Bowls. Once you are beyond the Horsemen, the big name tag teams and Dusty, you're quickly into Paul Jones's army and after that you're left with the Itallian Stallions of this world.

 

My argument is about ROSTER DEPTH, not card construction. It doesn't matter how Vince booked LA, the fact is he had a roster 60 deep, and on that roster were guys who would main event JCP shows buried in the midcard.

 

I love NWA as much as anyone, but I don't see where this is coming from. Read the Observers from 1986 onwards and it's Meltzer week after week after week saying that JCP need new talent, that the roster is tired and getting stale, that new top babyfaces and heels are needed.

[Dylan Waco]

This is neither here nor there, but Paul Jones Army/Jimmy Valiant feud was insanely over. Where I live it is not uncommon to run into nascar hat wearing, subcontractor fan, who can tell you more about that feud than they could about anything that happened in the WWF. That feud headlined or was near top of a lot of smaller high school shows.

[El-P]

Arn and Tully were maineventers for JCP, they were midcard in WWF.

 

Road Warriors were main eventers in JCP, they were upper midcard at best in WWF.

 

Ronnie Garvin was a world champ for JCP, he was a jobber in WWF.

 

Barry Windham was a major star for JCP, he was an also ran in WWF

 

Dusty Rhodes was the top babyface for JCP, he was a comedy act in WWF.

 

Ricky Steamboat was a mainevneter for JCP, he was at IC level in WWF.

Not to be a shit stirrer or anything, but that doesn't say that WWF had a deeper roster to me, it says that WWF had mostly a shitty taste in pro-wrestling.

[JerryvonKramer]

86 - this is Crockett's best shot at having the deeper roster. A lot of the talent they would go on to lose were still there, and Vince hadn't gone into 5th gear on his epic talent poaching yet. This should be the closest contest. Remember roster DEPTH is what is being measured here, not match quality. "Depth" is going to be defined as a messy combination of talent and star power.

 

Starrcade 86 vs. Wrestlemania 2

 

# Main event

 

Hulk Hogan vs. King Kong Bundy

 

Ric Flair vs. Nikita Koloff

 

Obviously Hogan is Hogan, but then Flair is Flair. In 86, I wonder if Koloff is a bigger star relatively speaking than Bundy, it's possible. Call it a draw? That is overlooking a hell of a lot to be generous to JCP.

 

# Semi-Main

 

Roddy Piper vs. Mr. T

 

The Road Warriors vs. The Midnight Express

 

This says as much about booking philosophy and even company philosophy as it does about anything else. I'd give this one JCP's way because we are measuring depth, obviously Piper vs. Mr. T is going to sell you more tickets in 1986 than most matches.

 

# Secondary title match

 

Randy Savage vs George the Animal Steele

 

Tully Blanchard vs. Dusty Rhodes

 

If you were a booker in 1986, and you had a draft pick out of these four guys, you'd probably want Savage, but this is a fairly easy win for JCP. Dusty and Tully were both bigger stars and better workers than Steele. 2-0 JCP

 

# Tag title match

 

The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team

 

Rock 'n' Roll Express vs. Arn and Ole Anderson

 

Little question this is going JCP's way. 3-0.

 

#Midcard

 

Paul Orndorff vs. Don Muraco

Battle Royale: Andre, Bret Hart, Jimbo Covert (NFL player – Chicago Bears), Pedro Morales, Tony Atlas, Ted Arcidi, Harvey Martin (Former NFL player – Dallas Cowboys), Danny Spivey, Hillbilly Jim, King Tonga, The Iron Sheik, Ernie Holmes (Former NFL player – Pittsburgh Steelers), B. Brian Blair, Jim Brunzell, Big John Studd, Bill Fralic (NFL player – Atlanta Falcons), Jim Neidhart, Russ Francis (NFL player – San Francisco 49ers), Bruno Sammartino, and William "Refrigerator" Perry (NFL player – Chicago Bears).

Ricky Steamboat vs. Hercules Hernandez

Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. Junkyard Dog and Tito Santana

 

Wahoo McDaniel vs. Rick Rude

Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones

Brad Armstrong vs. Jimmy Garvin

Big Bubba vs. Ron Garvin

 

This is not really close, you've got a Battle Royale featuring Andre and some other signicant people I've bolded there, PLUS Steamboat, PLUS the Funks, JYD who was a major draw, Tito Santana who was still a draw and still good, AND Muraco vs. Orndorff. This is what I've been trying to show, DEPTH IN THE UNDERCARD. Rick Rude was not a big star in 1986 and I'm not sure he was good. Valiant vs. Jones might have been bringing the house down in Greensboro but Valiant wasn't Andre, and Paul Jones was at best a regional star, and a manager by that point to boot. Big Bubba was green as heel in 86, putting Armstrong vs. Jimmy Garvin in this bracket was a stretch.

 

# Lower card

 

Jake Roberts vs. George Wells

The Fabulous Moolah © vs. Velvet McIntyre

Corporal Kirchner vs. Nikolai Volkoff

Adrian Adonis vs. Uncle Elmer

 

Tim Horner and Nelson Royal vs. Don and Rocky Kernodle

Hector Guerrero and Baron Von Raschke vs Shaska Whatley and The Barbarian

The Russians (Krusher Khruschev and Ivan Koloff) vs. The Kansas Jayhawks (Bobby Jaggers and Dutch Mantel)

Sam Houston vs. Bill Dundee

 

So both companies are resorting to putting a jobber or two on the card. I don't think Bill Dundee was on the JCP roster at this stage and this was probably a one shot for the big show, the same with some of the other Memphis guys. Nikolai Volkoff had main evented shows vs. Hogan that year. Adrian Adonis was still a good worker. Jake was gathering steam. Those are the three names that stand out. The JCP lower card is filled with guys on their way out (the Kernodles) or desperately hanging on (Baron). Ron Garvin is the only major star there (Dundee was hardly a star in the eyes of the casual JCP fan).

 

Conclusion: If you look at the top of the card, JCP's matches look tastier and more stacked with talent and star power -- overlooking the obvious Hogan factor here (and Mr. T). But once you go beyond that as I've been stressing, WWF's roster is way way way deeper. To the extent that they have a 20-man battle royal on the show. To the extent that Adrian Adonis and Jake Roberts are in nothing lower card matches.

 

Next, 1987 ...

[JerryvonKramer]

87 - people had started to walk out on Crockett at this stage, while Vince was grabbing anyone he could of any name value. I don't see this being close.

 

Wrestlemania III vs. Starrcade 87

 

#Main event

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Andre

 

Ric Flair vs. Ron Garvin

 

If you want to go on workrate alone it's obvious who is winning, but the combined star power of Hulk and Andre cannot be fucked with here. 1-0 WWF

 

# Secondary Title

 

Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage

 

Dusty Rhodes vs. Lex Luger

 

You've got to give this to WWF, not because of the match, but because Luger was not yet a big star in 1987 and Savage was arguably as big as Dusty if not bigger by that point. Work-wise it's a no contest. 2-0 WWF

 

# Semi-Main

 

Roddy Piper vs. Adrian Adonis

 

Rock n Roll Express vs. Midnight Express

 

I think Piper vs. Adonis was probably the #3 match at Mania III, and I've given the big tag scaffold match the nod over Nikita vs. Taylor. Adonis was dropping off work-wise by this point and although Piper was a big star ... 2-1 WWF

 

# Tag Titles

 

The British Bulldogs and Tito Santana vs. The Hart Foundation and Danny Davis

 

Arn and Tully vs. The Road Warriors

 

The tag belts were not defended at Mania III, so I've gone with the closest thing to that on the card. Road Warriors were bigger stars than any of the teams for WWF and Arn and Tully were better workers so 2-2.

 

# Mid Card

 

Iron Sheik and Nikolai Volkoff vs. The Killer Bees

The Dream Team vs. The Rougeau Brothers

Harley Race vs. JYD

 

Nikita Koloff vs. Terry Taylor

Steve William vs. Barry Windham

 

First of all, there are 10 guys here for WWF, and just 4 for JCP. Former NWA champ Harley Race vs. former Mid-South lynchpin JYD is a "main event anywhere in the country", I don't know if I'd say that about either of the JCP matches in 1987. The tag matches are also quite stacked. Jim Brunzell was a star in AWA. Iron Sheik is a former champ. Greg Valentine was a star. Beefcake was on the up. The Rougeaus were decent workers. Comfortable 3-2 WWF.

 

#Lower Card

 

The Can-Am Connection (Martel and Zenk) vs. Bob Orton and Don Muraco

Billy Jack Haynes vs. Hercules

Hillbilly Jim, The Haiti Kid and Little Beaver vs. King Kong Bundy, Little Tokyo and Lord Littlebrook

Butch Reed vs. Koko B. Ware

Honkytonk Man vs. Jake Roberts

 

Sting, Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin (with Precious) vs. Eddie Gilbert, Rick Steiner and Larry Zbyszko

 

So Mania had 4 more matches than Starrcade in 87, another rather strong indicator that they had much greater depth than JCP. Let's look at this lower card. Recent AWA champ Rick Martel goes up against recent main event star and MSG demi-god Don Muraco in a tag match that also features decent worker Bob Orton ... and the Zeeman. Honkytonk Man and Jake Roberts were both on the up and up. Butch Reed was a fairly big territorial star. King Kong Bundy had mainevented last year's Mania. What have JCP got in their 6-man tag? Sting was greener than grass in 87. Michael Hayes was a reasonably big star in the territories. Zybysko, I guess had some name power. Steiner was young. Gilbert not such a big name in Crockett land. Virtually impossible to give it JCP's way, 4-2 WWF.

 

Conclusion: By this stage, the obviousness of what I am saying is plainer than a smack in the face, no one can look at those two cards and say JCP had a deeper or more stacked roster. WWF put on 4 more matches too.

 

Shall we look at 88 or is there no point?

[tomk]

I would go as far as to say that you can pick any year, 86, 87, 88, 89 or 90 and WWF has a deeper roster.

 

JCP might have deeper CARDS on their house shows, but WWF had the deeper roster. It is painfully obvious. They bought the best talent from all around the country and had a roster of 60 wrestlers deep at any one point. JCP had a roster of about 30 guys at any one point, of which only really 20 or so were "names", and I'm including guys like Ivan Koloff and Jimmy Valiant in that.

 

I don't see how the argument is being made, I really don't. Do you really want me to waste an entire hour of my life breaking down Mania, Summerslam and Starrcade cards to demonstrate this?

 

I will go toe-to-toe with you and jdw on this point all week long if you want.

 

Arn and Tully were maineventers for JCP, they were midcard in WWF.

 

Road Warriors were main eventers in JCP, they were upper midcard at best in WWF.

 

Ronnie Garvin was a world champ for JCP, he was a jobber in WWF.

 

Barry Windham was a major star for JCP, he was an also ran in WWF

 

Dusty Rhodes was the top babyface for JCP, he was a comedy act in WWF.

 

Ricky Steamboat was a mainevneter for JCP, he was at IC level in WWF.

 

How long do you want to keep going?

 

This isn't to try to run JCP down or to big up WWF, but you've got to face facts. JCP couldn't have run a credible Royal Rumble because they didn't have 30 named stars, this becomes painfully obvious on shows like The Crockett Cup or any of the Battle Bowls. Once you are beyond the Horsemen, the big name tag teams and Dusty, you're quickly into Paul Jones's army and after that you're left with the Itallian Stallions of this world.

 

My argument is about ROSTER DEPTH, not card construction. It doesn't matter how Vince booked LA, the fact is he had a roster 60 deep, and on that roster were guys who would main event JCP shows buried in the midcard.

 

I love NWA as much as anyone, but I don't see where this is coming from. Read the Observers from 1986 onwards and it's Meltzer week after week after week saying that JCP need new talent, that the roster is tired and getting stale, that new top babyfaces and heels are needed.

 

I'm not sure when you last read the original post that me and jdw were responding to.

 

Having watched a ton more JCP since the original conversation happened, I think as a promotion they had less clearly defined strata than the WWF. For example, we think of Paul Jones's army mostly being at JTTS level and the feud with Valiant being lower card fodder.

 

But in 86 and even 87 before Nikita turned, The Boogey Woogey Man was arguably number 3 face behind Dusty and Magnum. Seriously, who else did they have?

 

I think ultimately JCP were thin in the middle. It's like there is no equivalent of a Tito or even Jim Duggan -- if there is, Valiant is probably it and he wrestles guys like Shaska Whatley.

 

There's a huge gulf between the main and semi-main and the rest of the card in JCP.

That was what we were responding to.

Yes WWF had a larger roster.

At one point WCW had over 100 people on their roster. If 95 of the people on that roster are booked as midcarders. It isn't a deep roster.

 

When you go through guys who were maineventers in JCP and merely midcarders in WWF, it doesn't reinforce the argument that there was a "huge gulf between the main and semi-main and the rest of the card in JCP."

It argues against your point. It suggests that JCP booked top heavy while WWF booked a main and semi-main and then dumped everyone else into pool of interchangeable midcarders.

 

 

Acting somehow like the WWF midcard was booked as semi-mains really suggests you weren't watching or going to shows.

 

Piper v Adonis isn't the semi-main, it is a midcard angle.

If Steamboat v Savage is booked as workrate attraction equivalent to RNR v MX...than it isn't being booked as equivalent of JCP secondary title. It is being booked as less important than JCP books both it's secondary title and it's top tag title. And Bulldogs/Tito v Harts Foundation is booked even lower than that.

 

It's almost as though in the WWE, there's a huge gulf between the main event and the rest of the card.

[JerryvonKramer]

88 - Crockett had an influx of new talent, but also lost some significant names too, most notable Arn and Tully. Starrcade was after the Turner buyout. I've gone with Summerslam 88 rather than Mania IV, because it was a more regular card and a fairer comparison. I will say though -- considering that DEPTH is the important thing here -- that at Mania IV they ran a 14-man tournament, a 20-man Battle Royal AND a tag title match.

 

Summerslam 88 vs. Starrcade 88

 

#Main Event

 

The Mega Powers (Hogan and Savage) vs. The Mega Bucks (Andre and DiBiase)

 

Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger

 

Another year on for Luger, but he can't compete with the WWF lineup here for work or star power. Simply outgunned. 1-0 WWF

 

# Secondary Title

 

Ultimate Warrior vs. Honky Tonk Man

 

Barry Windham vs. Bam Bam Bigelow

 

Hard to know which way to call this. HTM was on the end of quite an effective run as IC champ, Bigelow was having a cup of coffee. Warrior was a rising star and crazy over. If you were a booker in 1988, which match would you pick for your card? It's a tough one. Because I dislike Warrior that much though, I'm going 1-1 -- it probably should be 2-0 though.

 

#Semi-main

 

Jake Roberts vs. Hercules (??!)

 

Rick Steiner vs. Mike Rotunda

 

Summerslam 88 was an exceptionally shitty card looking at it. There is no obvious semi-main. Herc was still being reasonably pushed around this time and Roberts was a major star by this point. However, Steiner vs. Rotunda was a hot feud and given a lot of screen time. Also, Steiner was very over. Also, if you were a booker and the choice was between Roberts and Herc or Steiner and Rotunda, I think you'd probably go with the latter. 2-1 JCP.

 

# Tag Titles

 

Demolition vs. The Hart Foundation

 

Sting and Dusty vs. The Road Warriors

 

Hmmm, one way of thinking says JCP blow WWF away here. But Sting still wasn't really a top star, and Dusty was in terminal decline (and on his way out). The Road Warriors were still big stars. But then I wonder how big Demolition were. Work-wise, you'd probably give it to Demolition, Bret and Jim Neidhart. Very close call, but I'm saying WWF by a squeak -- too early for Sting, too late for Dusty. 2-2.

 

#Mid Card

 

The British Bulldogs vs. The Fabulous Rougeaus

Dino Bravo vs. Don Muraco

 

Kevin Sullivan and Steve Williams defeated The Fantastics (Bobby Fulton and Tommy Rogers)

The Midnight Express (Bobby Eaton and Stan Lane) (with Jim Cornette) defeated The Original Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey and Randy Rose)

 

On the face of it this looks like JCP blow WWF away. But let's look closer: Dino Bravo was a big star in Canada. Don Muraco was past it by this point. The Bulldogs were winding down. The Rougeaus were a very mid-card team by this point. It's not a strong mid-card for WWF. Ok, this one has possibly backfired on me, JCP blow WWF away here. 3-2 JCP.

 

#Lower Card

 

Rick Rude vs. JYD

Bad News Brown vs. Ken Patera

The Powers of Pain vs. The Bolsheviks

Bigboss Man vs. Koko B. Ware

 

The Russian Assassins vs. vs. JYD and Ivan Koloff

 

Heh, look at that JYD jobbing in both places. Again, WWF put on 3 more matches than JCP signalling a deeper roster. The Russian Assassins were essentially jobbers (although they won here, infuriatingly!), so this is an easy WWF win. Rude was on the up here. Ol' pasty legs Patera makes an appearance, he was a big star in his time. Warlord and Barbarian had recently jumped from Crockett. Bossman had jumped from Crockett. Koko Ware was slipping into JTTS mode already. 3-3.

 

Conclusion: Ok, Summerslam 88 is not a good card on paper and Starrcade 88 is a really good one, but even then WWF were putting on three more matches and had a reasonable selection of talent up and down the card. There is no one as jobberish as The Russian Assassins getting wins on PPV.

 

I will stop the demonstration here. The point is made.

 

It's almost as though in the WWE, there's a huge gulf between the main event and the rest of the card.

That is never truer than it is with Summerslam 88 that's for sure.

 

EDIT: tomk - having gone through 86, 87 and 88 in that way, I think my point stands about JCP having strong mains and semi-mains and weaker (thinner) midcards in terms of star power and talent.

 

You can say WWF were wasteful in shoving so many big name guys into meaningless mid-card fodder matches but look at the cards head to head and see how many midcard matches "which would be main events anywhere in the country" the WWF had compared to JCP. They had more guys who could jump into main event spots if required who might just be working a midcard match tonight. JCP only had the Horsemen, Dusty and the Road Warriors with RnR and MX to do a tag match which could be pushed as a semi-main. Beyond that there isn't a lot. Tell me that is not the case and why. Where is the JCP equivalent of, say, Paul Orndorff vs. Don Muraco? Those are two guys that could sell MSG out in 1986, and here they are just having a midcard match on this supercard? Where is it?

 

That is my point.

[Dylan Waco]

Those guys werent' just working mid-card matches. Most of them were booked as mid-carders. They weren't positioned as draws. I do think you could make a case that through most of 86 WWF was still booking certain guys in certain areas for regional drawing purposes or using feuds like Valentine/Tito as a front end feud that could draw in big towns on it's won. 87 on? OUtside of some random, isolated instances, not so much.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, what does it matter how they were positioned or booked? Harley Race in a crown in the midcard is still Harley Race. A stacked midcard is a stacked midcard.

 

Don Muraco or Paul Orndorff in 86 might have been (upper) midcarders, but they could still work Hogan at MSG, at house shows or even on tv specials.

 

Whichever way you slice it, whichever way you want to argue it, Orndorff vs. Muraco is a much more impressive midcard match than Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones.

 

If you look at how Vince booked top heels, it was always the same: come in, run against Hogan, back down the card, maybe into a prominent feud, utilise in main event title matches on SNME or even on PPV if need be. You can look at DiBiase's run to see this most visibly as he has a clear trajectory coming in 87, pushed to the moon in 88, main event run, back down the card, sporadic main events for the next few years before being put in a tag team. You can see a parallel in what they did with Savage after 89.

 

The point is that that's Orndorff in the midcard there, Orndorff who CAN main event if need be. It's not Paul Jones. That's DiBiase there 3rd match vs. Beefcake, he could be against Hogan next PPV. It's not Russian Assassin #2.

 

Am I losing the plot? Is this not the most transparently obvious thing in the world?

 

EDIT: I am in an unusually argumentative mood this evening, apologies.

[Dylan Waco]

Dylan, what does it matter how they were positioned or booked? Harley Race in a crown in the midcard is still Harley Race. A stacked midcard is a stacked midcard.

Aren't you the guy who usually argues that presentation in wrestling matters more than we let on? You don't think it matters how they were presented or positioned? A mid-card can be stacked with good workers or guys who historically meant a lot and still not mean shit in terms of the matches/wrestlers being strong supporting acts for the promotion in question. When assessing drawing power and things of that nature how things were positioned and the general framework is essential. I really don't see what is hard to grasp about that.

 

 

Whichever way you slice it, whichever way you want to argue it, Orndorff vs. Muraco is a much more impressive midcard match than Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones.

If you grew up a WWF fan sure. If you grew up in Crockett country in the mid-80's? I don't know about that.

 

Ask yourself this question - Where is the "Night of The Skywalkers" equivalent for the WWF? Where is Tully/Magnum equivalent co-headlining biggest show of year? If we are being generous we could argue for Savage/Steamboat I guess, but that's a real stretch.

 

If you look at how Vince booked top heels, it was always the same: come in, run against Hogan, back down the card, maybe into a prominent feud, utilise in main event title matches on SNME or even on PPV if need be. You can look at DiBiase's run to see this most visibly as he has a clear trajectory coming in 87, pushed to the moon in 88, main event run, back down the card, sporadic main events for the next few years before being put in a tag team. You can see a parallel in what they did with Savage after 89.

No question that they fed new heels to their top draw. No question that some of these guys like Dibiase and Savage maintained levels of stardom. No question that others faded into mid-card obscurity, irrelevance or silliness.

 

The point is that that's Orndorff in the midcard there, Orndorff who CAN main event if need be. It's not Paul Jones. That's DiBiase there 3rd match vs. Beefcake, he could be against Hogan next PPV. It's not Russian Assassin #2.

Paul Jones was top drawing card in MACW for a long time. Very close to the sort of guy you believe these WWF guys were even though I see no evidence that they were. Actually moreso because we have clear cases of Jones being positioned to draw and drawing as a singles. So Jones is a shit example to point to.

 

Yes there are guys that could be fed to Hogan. Not that many got multiple runs against Hogan though. Very, very few could be said to be guys used in positioned to draw especially after 86. Give me examples and I'll believe otherwise.

[ohtani's jacket]

It's almost as though in the WWE, there's a huge gulf between the main event and the rest of the card.

Is that really true?

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 24, 1989 (16,000)

 

Greg Valentine (w/ Jimmy Hart) vs. Blue Blazer

Hillbilly Jim vs. Honkytonk Man

Dino Bravo vs. Hercules

Paul Roma vs. Boris Zhukov

Ted Dibiase vs. Jake Roberts

Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect

Bushwhackers vs. The Brain Busters

Hulk Hogan vs. Randy Savage

 

Perfect and Bret Hart had a thing going on at the time. Roberts and Dibiase had a thing going on at the time. The Bushwhackers gimmick was over. The undercard is forgettable but you know what you're getting with the gimmicks. Weakest guy on the card is Roma in terms of gimmick and presentation. Maybe I'm blinkered by my memory of this era as a kid where we devoured wrestling magazines and knew everything about everyone. The cards may have been top heavy, but most guys had a program. That's how I remember following wrestling back then -- program to program, who was feuding with whom.

[Johnny Sorrow]

This is neither here nor there, but Paul Jones Army/Jimmy Valiant feud was insanely over. Where I live it is not uncommon to run into nascar hat wearing, subcontractor fan, who can tell you more about that feud than they could about anything that happened in the WWF. That feud headlined or was near top of a lot of smaller high school shows.

And while I don't wear a Nascar hat and only briefly worked for a subcontractor once, Valiant vs Jones is my favorite feud/ program of all time. It was directly what made me start watching Crockett. It was important, people cared deeply about it, and it was great long, long, long term booking.

[Dylan Waco]

This is neither here nor there, but Paul Jones Army/Jimmy Valiant feud was insanely over. Where I live it is not uncommon to run into nascar hat wearing, subcontractor fan, who can tell you more about that feud than they could about anything that happened in the WWF. That feud headlined or was near top of a lot of smaller high school shows.

And while I don't wear a Nascar hat and only briefly worked for a subcontractor once, Valiant vs Jones is my favorite feud/ program of all time. It was directly what made me start watching Crockett. It was important, people cared deeply about it, and it was great long, long, long term booking.

 

 

No way in hell I believe you don't own a Rusty Wallace hat.

[Johnny Sorrow]

This is neither here nor there, but Paul Jones Army/Jimmy Valiant feud was insanely over. Where I live it is not uncommon to run into nascar hat wearing, subcontractor fan, who can tell you more about that feud than they could about anything that happened in the WWF. That feud headlined or was near top of a lot of smaller high school shows.

And while I don't wear a Nascar hat and only briefly worked for a subcontractor once, Valiant vs Jones is my favorite feud/ program of all time. It was directly what made me start watching Crockett. It was important, people cared deeply about it, and it was great long, long, long term booking.

 

 

No way in hell I believe you don't own a Rusty Wallace hat.

 

Yeah, because there's that huge Deadhead/ NASCAR cross over.

[JerryvonKramer]

Johnny - sorry mate, no way in a million years are you pulling the idea that Paul Jones was a bigger draw than Orndorff or Muraco in 1986. Come on dude.

[Dylan Waco]

Johnny - sorry mate, no way in a million years are you pulling the idea that Paul Jones was a bigger draw than Orndorff or Muraco in 1986. Come on dude.

 

I don't think that's his point and it wasn't mine either. But Jones was a big regional draw in MACW and is a poor example of a guy to point to as joke mid-card act with no drawing history, particularly when you are pushing narrative of WWF mid-carders as draws based on previous stardom.

[JerryvonKramer]

Jones was a regional star no doubt about it, but in 1986 he was a manager. I don't understand the point. Jones in 86 for MACW is like what? Pedro Morales?

 

I don't see how it's a bad example at all. Jones is hardly comparable to Orndorff or Muraco. What is the point being made? Could Jones main event in 86? Could he have a run with Flair or Dusty on top if need be? Well?