BrickHithouse Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I don't have a dog in this fight and to be honest, don't totally follow the arguments. Would it be safe to say, generally speaking that: WWF tended to have one feud going at a time with a rolling boil, then 3-5 other things with that simmered on low burners. JCP had 5-6 burners turned up to maximum heat more often than not. WWF kept things at a simmer because for a period of time they did crazy business and there was no incentive to turn up the heat. In the summer/fall of 1991, they had a significant drop-off in house show business and in turn, added more heat to their various pots on the stove. So if each company on a given night (say, 1986 thru 1988) had the exact same number of matches that had heat/feud/whatever attached to them, JCP's tended to have way more heat associated with them, and more vested crowd interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Been a while since I've seen jdw really "go". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 So I'm looking back at this, and perhaps see one of the problems: I must now summon Solie.org NWA roster for September 1986 was as follows: "The Nature Boy" Ric Flair, "The American Dream" Dusty Rhodes, Nelson Royal, "Beautiful" Bobby Eaton, Ivan Kolkoff, Hawk, Animal, Nikita Koloff, "The Enforcer" Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard, Ricky Morton, Robert Gibson, "Hands of Stone" Ronnie Garvin, The Barbarian, Sam Houston, Chris Champion, Sean Royal, Barry Windham, "Sweet" Stan Lane, "The Total Package" Lex Luger, Ray Candy, Commando #2, The Warlord, "Ravishing" Rick Rude, Manny Fernandez, Kendall Windham, Kevin Sullivan, Michael "P.S." Hayes, Big Bubba Rogers, Dick Murdock TOTAL ROSTER: 30 The WWF roster for September 1986 was as follows: The Fabulous Moolah, George "The Animal" Steel, Andre the Giant, Pedro Morales, "Adorable" Adrian Adonis, Tony Garea, The Magnificent Muraco, The Iron Shiek, Hulk Hogan, The Junkyard Dog, Tito Santana, Lelanie Kai, Judy Martin, Moondog Rex, Moondog Spot, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Gregg "The Hammer" Valentine, Mike Rotundo, Nikolia Volkoff, "The Giant" John Studd, "Mr. Wonderful" Paul Orndorff, Brutus Beefcake, King Kong Bundy, Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat, "Cowboy" Bob Orton, Davey Boy Smith, The Dynamite Kid, Steve Lombardi, Sivi Afi, Haku, Toma, Hillbilly Jim, B. Brian Blair, "Jump'in" Jim Brunzell, Barry O, Brett "Hitman" Hart, Jim "The Andvil" Neidhart, Terry Funk, Dory Funk Jr., Randy "Macho Man" Savage, "Leaping" Lanny Poffo, Corporal Kirshener, Hercules Hernandez, Jauques Rougeau, Raymond Rougeau, Jake "The Snake" Roberts, "Golden Boy" Danny Spivey, Jimmy Jack Funk, Billy Jack Haynes, "The King" Handsome Harley Race, "The Natural Butch Reed, The Honkytonk Man, "Superstar" Billy Graham, Paul Roma, Jim Powers, The Super Machine, The Big Machine, Kamala the Uygandan Giant, Sika the Savage Samoan, "The Birdman" Koko B. Ware. TOTAL ROSTER: 59 I feel almost spent making such an obvious argument that the one roster is much deeper than the other one. Why this stubborn refusal to accept it? Let's set aside the last snark for a moment, and focus in on the fact that clearly someone is posting about JCP without actually knowing much about JCP: Ric Flair Dusty Rhodes Nelson Royal Bobby Eaton Ivan Koloff Hawk Animal Nikita Koloff Arn Anderson Tully Blanchard Ricky Morton Robert Gibson Ronnie Garvin The Barbarian Sam Houston Chris Champion Sean Royal Barry Windham Stan Lane Lex Luger Wait... let's stop here. Stan Lane? He wasn't in JCP until 1987 when he joined the MX. Barry didn't come to JCP until later in the year. Lex didn't either. These are three guys in Florida, not JCP. Ray Candy Commando #2 What? The Warlord Rick Rude Manny Fernandez Kendall Windham Kevin Sullivan Kendall... Sully... more FL guys? Michael Hayes Um... Hayes as in the UWF. Big Bubba Rogers Dick Murdock Okay, I know Jerry is going to jump in here and say, "Ah hah! JCP has less than 30 guys!" Well, not so fast... Let's set aside some of the guys that I've mentioned in the thread (Wahoo, Jimmy Garvin, etc), and ponder some of the guys that Jerry has cited like Jimmy Valiant and Magnum. I think I mentioned early that it doesn't seem like you're reading what others post, and often don't even slow down to think about what you post. Anyway, let's see if we can build a September list by look at the results for WCW and the WWF that are available in September 1986: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/jcp86.htm http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/86.htm I am going to ignore TV tapings due to the use of jobbers, and instead look at house shows. Jim Powers was a JTTS at the time, but he worked house shows that he was truly part of the "roster" rather than just brought in to do jobs on TV. Same goes for folks like Italian Stallion. The exceptions are clear jobbers: a Mulkey brother working one house show... he's still a jobber, he's off the list. In turn, the Thunderfoots are on the list, and the Conquistadors would be if they hadn't debuted in 1987: tag team JTTS. I'll count Mr. X. I will not count "visiting" stars such as the Jumping Bomb Angles since we all know they're on the AJW roster. Owen worked a handful of prelims during the year, including two in September. He wasn't on the roster. The WWF worked in Australia and used Gama Singh... and that's the only time he was used. Not on the list. There's also some oddballs like Alexis Smirnoff, who worked one house show, a couple earlier in the year, but those seem to be local ones in the sense of "we need someone" rather than him being on the roster. Frankie Laine was a local guy who worked a few Toronto cards, did some jobber roles on tv, not really on the roster. Pete Doherty worked a few Boston Garden and Providence cards, one in September, but that wasn't really on the regular roster. Roger Kirby was used as a sub for a few shows when Dory left the WWF, but again was just a jobber other than that. A couple of guys for each promotion like this. I will not count "out of promotion" cards that Graham lists, such as Battle of the Belts III which was in Florida and not a JCP card. Same goes if a WWF guy worked on an out of territory card that Graham lists (such as NJPW cards). Not included. Lastly, I'll pitch the women and the midgets. Both the WWF and JCP has a limited amount of women, with JCP at the time trying to push Misty Blue while Moolah still worked as champ. Midgets... eh. I'll cop right off the bat that it's 100% certain that the WWF will have a larger roster. We all agree on that. I just would prefer that the arguments are fact based, and reviewing the thread and finding something as obviously errant at that shouldn't be left in here. These aren't going to be in "ranked" order because I'm just adding names to the spreadsheet as a new one pops up, then sorting to be alpha. JCP (46) Animal Arn Anderson Barbarian Baron Von Raschke Big Bubba Rogers Bill Dundee Black Bart Bobby Eaton Bobby Jaggers Buddy Landell Dennis Condrey Denny Brown Dick Murdock Don Kernodle Dusty Rhodes Dutch Mantell George South Hawk Hector Guerrero Ivan Koloff Jimmy Garvin Jimmy Valiant Krusher Kruschev Magnum TA Manny Fernandez Nelson Royal Nikita Koloff Ole Anderson Ric Flair Rick Rude Ricky Morton Robert Gibson Rocky Kernodle Ronnie Garvin Sam Houston Shaska Whatley Steve Regal Teijo Khan The Italian Stallion The Warlord Thunderfoot #1 Thunderfoot #2 Tim Horner Todd Champion Tully Blanchard Wahoo McDaniel Managers who worked (3) JJ Dillon Paul Ellering Paul Jones WWF (68) Adrian Adonis Andre the Giant Barry O Big John Studd Billy Jack Haynes Bob Bradley Bob Orton Jr. Bret Hart Brian Blair Brutus Beefcake Cousin Luke Cpl. Kirchner Dan Spivey Davey Boy Smith Dick Slater Don Muraco Dory Funk Jr. Dynamite Kid George Steele George Wells Greg Valentine Harley Race Hercules Hillbilly Jim Hulk Hogan Iron Mike Sharpe Iron Sheik Jacques Rougeau Jake Roberts Jerry Allen Jim Brunzell Jim Neidhart Jim Powers Jimmy Jack Funk Jose Luis Rivera Junkyard Dog Kamala King Kong Bundy King Tonga / Haku Koko B. Ware Lanny Poffo Mike Rotundo Moondog Rex Moondog Spot Mr. X Nick Kiniski Nikolai Volkoff Paul Orndorff Paul Roma Pedro Morales Randy Savage Raymond Rougeau Rene Goulet Ricky Steamboat Roddy Piper Salvatore Bellomo SD Jones Sika Sivi Afi Steve Lombardi Steve Regal Super Machine Ted Arcidi Terry Gibbs Tiger Chung Lee Tito Santana Tonga Kid / Tama Tony Garea Managers who worked (2) Bobby Heenan Capt. Lou Albano Debuts at Tapings / No House Shows (3) Butch Reed (did not work house shows until November) Superstar Billy Graham (did not work house shows after hurting hip) The Honkytonk Man (did not work house shows until October) One thing that jumps out is that the WWF had a lot of JTTS on the roster. I count around 20, and that doesn't include Jimmy Jack Funk or Cousin Luke. There clearly are some on the JCP roster, but there just aren't as many of the likes of these guys working regularly: Barry O Bob Bradley George Wells Jerry Allen Jose Luis Rivera Mr. X Salvatore Bellomo Steve Lombardi Terry Gibbs JCP has their Rocky Kernodle, but Stallion was more succesful in 1986 than Roma and Power, Nelson Royal was similar to Garea and Goulet, the Thunderfoots were the Moondogs... for the most part, there are two in the WWF for every one in JCP. Anyway... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I'm very frustrated at this stage jdw. I said look at this post, you go back to a post I made 2 weeks ago. And then use it as evidence to say I don't know much about JCP. At this point, I've spent over 40 hours talking about JCP, and god knows how many watching it. And god knows how many more tracking the observers and so on. I don't think it's fair to say I don't know the promotion. I'm sorry, I didn't check Solie's info closely to see he'd made so many errors in there. I just wanted to make the glib point that one roster was almost double the size of the other one. Maybe I should be more anal about these things. If you go back to the post you are so adamantly ignoring, you'll see that the past two pages of this argument -- especially the one between me and you -- are built mainly on the misunderstanding or miscommunication of a single phrase. The argument you think I've been making has not been the argument I've been making. I did throw out a parting shot in that post. One about JCP always putting on strong cards actually being a kind of weakness. I think that's something that, on another day, maybe even with a different set of participants, might be an interesting discussion. "Actually IS it such a great idea to put on so many strong cards?" But I think this thread has had enough different arguments. It's now becoming increasingly tedious. It's flogging a dead horse. I even said I'm not taking part anymore. Do you just like the sound of your voice? I don't understand what point you're even trying to prove anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I think that's something that, on another day, maybe even with a different set of participants, might be an interesting discussion. "Actually IS it such a great idea to put on so many strong cards?" Hell yes, this sounds like it has potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 Jerry, I think you should concede the point that the WWF story lines were spread out over multiple cards and not stacked on one show to the next. Even their PPVs were not that well built to during this era. They tended to focus on 3 main story lines while continuing to push various gimmicks on the undercard. The houseshows weren't only about Hogan, however. When I watch WWF house shows I see workers who were over and matches where the audience aren't off in droves taking some kind of break. Loss has mentioned how protected both Boss Man and Dibiase have been on the yearbooks and they're not the only ones. I started watching wrestling post-Wrestlemania IV and there were numerous angles and gimmicks relayed to us via Superstars. The WWF was not special in this respect, their gimmicks simply tendered to be more colorful. I think I would argue presentation over depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 God. Final thoughts here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5533535 I'm not saying more about the debate. Just to say it's easy to play that game if you know where to look. Bolded matches had feuds / storylines. WrestleMania VI - Toronto, Ontario - Skydome - April 1, 1990 (64,287; announced at 67,678; sell out; new attendance record) 8 out of 14? 57%? That's going to be tough to top... what was WCW's next PPV? Capital Combat: Return of Robocop May 19, 1990 in Washington, DC DC Armory drawing 7,500 ($98,000) Shown live on PPV (1.4) 1. The Road Warriors & Norman beat Kevin Sullivan, Cactus Jack, & Bam Bam Bigelow (9:38) when Hawk pinned Sullivan. Norman was feuding with Sullivan all year's crew, including Norman-Sully at the first Clash of the year, Cactus-Norman match on the prior PPV. The Warriors were pulled in via two different angles earlier in the month to set this up. Storyline. 2. Mark Callous pinned Johnny Ace (10:41). This was thrown together. The Skyscrapers 2.0 (Spivey & Callous) broke up back in Feb when Spivey wandered off. This was part of the start of pushing Callous, eventually towards Luger. Ace was in the doghouse with the bookers, so he was chosen to put over Mark. No real storyline to this that I recall, though they had worked about a month of house shows. 3. Fatu & Samoan Savage beat Mike Rotunda & Tommy Rich (17:54) when Savage pinned Rich. Rich along with Eddie Gilbert had a lot of matches with the Samoans going back to March including on TV, so there's storyline. Gilbert's last matches with WCW were just prior to this, so my guess is that it was suppose to be Rich & Gilbert, but Gilbert left the promotion. 4. Paul Ellering pinned Teddy Long (1:57) in a "hair vs hair" match. Hair match. Of course there's storyline. 5. The Midnight Express (Eaton & Lane) beat Tom Zenk & Brian Pillman (20:20) to win the NWA U.S. Tag Title when Eaton pinned Zenk. This had probably WCW's best angle of the year. Storyline, even if WCW Management tried to kill the storyline. 6. The Rock-n-Roll Express beat The Freebirds (Garvin & Hayes) (18:33) in a "corporal punishment" match when Morton pinned Hayes. These teams were feuding their asses off, hence the country whipping match. 7. Doom beat Rick & Scott Steiner (19:14) to win the NWA Tag Title when Reed pinned Rick. These teams had been feuding since the prior year, including a major angle. Storyline. 8. Lex Luger beat NWA World Champ Ric Flair (17:21) via DQ in a "steel cage" match. Rematch off the prior PPV, let along years of storyline between the two. 7 out of 8 matches had storylines going in. 88%. Note that this was at a time when WCW's booking was going to shit after Flair gave up the book, and The Black Scorpion was right around the corner. That said, they still gave reasons for almost all of the matches on the PPV to be there. So... Just to say it's easy to play that game if you know where to look. Yep. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 OJ - the thing is I never doubted that. I've never argued against that. I've never said they weren't spread out over multiple cards. As that post I've linked to says, which no-one seems to want to read, the point of my post looking at the first 9 days of Jan 88 was to demonstrate depth in the roster across the promotion, NOT to say that each of the individual cards were stacked. I was talking about how people who weren't Hogan played a role in drawing. I can see how the misunderstanding came about. My phrase "up and down the card" was taken to mean "up and down individual cards", I was really talking about "up and down the roster". This isn't moving the goalposts, it's clarification. I don't think you'll find me anywhere in the 10 pages of this thread arguing that WWF put all its storylines onto one card or that their individual cards were stronger than JCP's cards. I would concede the point if I'd ever made it, but I don't think I have. It's simply not the way I think about promotions. I'm a big picture guy, I think about booking across a promotion over a period of time. jdw seems to be a details guy and he is seemingly obsessed with trying to demonstrate things with individual cards. So when I post a sequence of cards, assuming the take-away is 1. the impressive amount of towns run in 9 days with the roster and 2. the amount of hot stars, feuds, storylines etc. spread across all those cards, jdw's takeaway is to look at individual cards and draw conclusions about from the specifics of each card -- not helped of course by aforementioned misunderstanding. If no one disagrees that WWF had multiple storylines running spread across different cards, then the point about "meaningless depth" can't apply. This is the argument I've been trying to have. I think the "meaningless depth" criticism only applies up to 86 and after that things start to change. Somehow we've got from that to people telling me I'm arguing that random house shows have 5-6 storyline matches on them, an argument I never made anywhere. I'm fried by this now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I don't have a dog in this fight and to be honest, don't totally follow the arguments. Would it be safe to say, generally speaking that: WWF tended to have one feud going at a time with a rolling boil, then 3-5 other things with that simmered on low burners. I think the WWF had more than that, especially when working split crews. You needed 2-3 "hot" feuds to headline cards in different parts of the country. So you've got Savage vs Tito on five straight MSG cards in 1986: Mar, Apr, May, Jun, Jul. Hogan main events one of those cards, two of the others are supported by the Bulldogs vs Dream Team feud, and a fourth has a Battle Royal + Bulldogs defense against the Moondogs (something of a throwaway, but the Dogs were over). In turn, the Hogan-Savage feud was hitting other cities around the country while the Tito-Savage was going on... because Hogan-Savage had played out in MSG from Dec-Jan-Feb. We had another thread where we talked about the WWF's booking in this era, and I think I was pretty clear in trying to get across how amazing of a job they did in juggling so much shit: different crews, loads of cities, matches cycling through cities at different times, keeping track that Savage is feuding with Tito in New York while he's feuding with Hogan in Detroit. I half joked about them having a Big Board back in the Titan Towers to try to keep track of all this stuff, but I have no clue how they juggled it. Anyway, Hogan at times had two feuds going on at ones: the one that's wrapping up in some cities while the other one is starting it's run. Hogan-Orndorff and Hogan-Kamala had overlap in December, probably some in November as well. Then behind that, they had their other feuds going on: juggling Savage-Tito with Savage-Animal, then Savage-Steamer with Savage-Animal. Tag feuds... lots of stuff. JCP had 5-6 burners turned up to maximum heat more often than not. They had some of the same things going on in 1986. Flair-Dusty was their big match, so they often used it to "open" towns like Los Angeles. You'll see Flair-Dusty matches going on in some cities long after they've moved onto Flair-Morton in the core cities. Same with MX-R'n'R and MX-RW and RW-Russians: it depended on the city. They had the same thing post Bash: MX-R'n'R in some cities, and R'n'R vs Andersons starting to heat up. Similar to the WWF, I have no idea how they kept easy track of what had played where. That would be something interesting to ask Cornette. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 God. Final thoughts here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5533535 I'm not saying more about the debate. Just to say it's easy to play that game if you know where to look. Bolded matches had feuds / storylines. WrestleMania VI - Toronto, Ontario - Skydome - April 1, 1990 (64,287; announced at 67,678; sell out; new attendance record) Rick Martel defeated Koko B. Ware via submission with the Boston Crab at 5:30 Demolition defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku (w/ Bobby Heenan) to win the titles at 9:15 when Ax pinned Haku following the Decapitation after Andre's arms became entangled in the ring ropes; during the contest, it was mentioned Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart had already challenged the winners to a title match; after the match, Heenan berated Andre for the loss and slapped him before Andre grabbed Heenan by the jacket, slapped, and punched Heenan out of the ring; moments later, Haku attempted to attack Andre but Andre assaulted him and cleared Haku from the ring, with Andre then stealing the team's motorized cart to leave ringside alone (Andre's last TV match) Earthquake (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Hercules with an elbow drop and the sit-down splash at 4:54; after the match, Earthquake hit a second sit-down splash; moments later, Hercules struggled back to his feet under his own power Brutus Beefcake pinned Mr. Perfect (w/ the Genius) at 7:47 after a catapult into the ringpost; during the bout, Mary Tyler Moore was shown in attendance; after the match, the Genius attempted to steal Beefcake's hedge clippers and sneak backstage but Beefcake caught him on the floor, rolled him back in the ring, put him in the sleeper, and then cut the Genius' hair (Perfect's first national TV pinfall loss) (WrestleMania's Greatest Matches Vol. 2) Roddy Piper fought Bad News Brown to a double count-out at 6:47 when both men began brawling on the floor and Piper attempted to hit News with a steel chair; Piper had half his body painted black for the match; after the contest, both men continued brawling in the aisle all the way backstage, with Pat Patterson, Chief Jay Strongbow, Rene Goulet, and referees trying to break up the fight (Born to Controversy: The Roddy Piper Story) Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov when Bret pinned Zhukov following the Hart Attack at the 18-second mark The Barbarian (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned Tito Santana with a clothesline off the top at 4:33 Dusty Rhodes & Sapphire (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Randy Savage & Sensational Sherri at 7:31 when Sapphire pinned Sherri with a roll up after Elizabeth shoved Sherri as Sherri grabbed at her on the floor; prior to the bout, Rhodes introduced Elizabeth to be in his and Sapphire's corner; after the bout, Rhodes stole Savage's sceptor before dancing in the ring with Sapphire and Elizabeth (Miss Elizabeth's surprise return after a 3-month absence) (the first man-woman tag team match) (American Dream: The Dusty Rhodes Story, Macho Madness: The Ultimate Randy Savage Collection) The Orient Express (w/ Mr. Fuji) defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty via count-out at 7:36 after Jannetty had salt thrown into his eyes while on the floor Jim Duggan pinned Dino Bravo (w/ Jimmy Hart) at 4:15 after hitting him with the 2x4; after the bout, Earthquake attacked Duggan and hit two sit-down splashes Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) defeated Jake Roberts via count-out at 11:53 as Roberts was distracted by Virgil on the floor; after the match, Virgil returned backstage with the Million $ belt while Roberts hit the DDT on Dibiase and passed his money to fans around ringside; prior to the bout, Gene Okerlund conducted a backstage interview with Roberts regarding the match; stipulations stated the winner would earn the Million $ Belt (WrestleMania 26 Collector's Edition) The Big Bossman pinned Akeem (w/ Slick) at around 1:50 with the sidewalk slam despite interference from Ted Dibiase before the match; Dibiase hid underneath the ring after the previous match Rick Rude (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned Jimmy Snuka at 3:51 with the Rude Awakening; Steve Allen did guest commentary for the match WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan to win the title at 22:50 with a splash after Hogan missed the legdrop; after the match, Hogan presented Warrior with the world title belt; both championships were on the line in the contest; voted Pro Wrestling Illustrated's Match of the Year (Hulkamania Forever, The Ultimate Warrior 92, Best of the WWF: Ultimate Warrior, WrestleMania X8, The Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior, The History of the WWE Heavyweight Championship, Hulk Hogan: The Ultimate Anthology) So on the biggest WWF show of the year, the show where they blow off all of their biggest storylines from the past year, the show that an entire year's worth of booking culminates towards...just over half of the matches had storyline buildup? And that's supposed to make your point? And what was the storyline between the Rockers and the Orient Express? I do not remember those two having done anything going into this show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 There was no issue with Rockers-Orients going in to WM. The salt in the eyes finish at WM set up their house show run that went thru the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 And then use it as evidence to say I don't know much about JCP. At this point, I've spent over 40 hours talking about JCP, and god knows how many watching it. And god knows how many more tracking the observers and so on. I don't think it's fair to say I don't know the promotion.To be fair, JCP and early WCW are much different promotions if you're only watching the big shows (and that goes double if you were watching the home video versions of any of those shows, and I don't know if you were or not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I would concede the point if I'd ever made it, but I don't think I have. It's simply not the way I think about promotions. I'm a big picture guy, I think about booking across a promotion over a period of time. jdw seems to be a details guy and he is seemingly obsessed with trying to demonstrate things with individual cards. Jerry: I'm trying to do comparative analysis. We have to do that because we don't have full results of both promotions, and have to look at cards with full information. Look at the first 10 days of 1988 for JCP: http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/jcp88.htm * we don't have full results of the 1/2 cards * we don't have full results of the 1/3 cards * we have no results for the one "known" 1/4 card, and don't even know where the b-show was * no results for the 1/5 cards, just a listing of what was billed as the card at some point * studio results for 1/6, but no card results * no results for 1/7 cards * the one known card on 1/8 was cancelled due to snow, nothing on whether there's a second card * no results for 1/9 * three known cards for 1/10, what looks like an incomplete set of results for one, and what are clearly incomplete results for the other two So how should we compare the promotions in the first 9-10 days, Jerry? This is one of the reasons I went with the Los Angeles cards: they tend to be complete in the one or other sources Graham used to compile his reports. For both promotions. Folks who have spent a lot of time sifting through those results for different research areas tend to know this, as do those who read the 80s WON in detail week after week after week in detail: there are gaps in the data available, and in terms of what's complete. So one needs to look for things that can be compared. And hell... the first two weeks of 1988 were a mess for JCP trying to figure out where to go coming off Starcade. Lex had turned, but they didn't want him to run with Flair yet in singles. Flair didn't really have a dance partner after winning the title back, so was killing time with Hayes... until Sting clearly was the choice to dance. Dusty had the US title back, but the Larry Z & Baby Doll thing was spinning its wheels. The MX were without a dance partner, which is something that Corny talks about quite well in his MX book, along with his solution to it, and Dusty letting him run with it. That would just take a little while to happen. The RW were inching towards their feud with PoP, Arn & Tully were just a bit away from their feud with Barry & Lex... if one looks just at the first week or two of 1988, you see a promotion in transition, not flipping the page just yet. That said, as I pointed out when looking at the Los Angeles cards in early 1988, you will find across them the feuds starting to line up, with a mix of the ones killing time (Flair-Hayes), being dropped (Dusty-Larry), and hitting their stride (Flair-Sting, Barry & Lex vs Arn & Tully). So when I post a sequence of cards, assuming the take-away is 1. the impressive amount of towns run in 9 days with the roster In the same period, JCP was largely running two shows a day with a split crew, and double shots on some of the weekends. It's similar to the WWF, except that the WWF had a C-crew... which much like JCP's B-crew, we don't really have close to full results for. Both promotions would look much more impressive if we had the level of results that Meltzer has gotten for the last decade. Of course... the WWF only runs (at most) 2 cards a night now, and only certain days of the week. It's easy to track now. and 2. the amount of storylines spread across all those matches, As a % of matches, it really isn't that impressive of a number of storylines. Frankly, you were point more towards an "impressive number of Pushed and Over wrestlers" than actual storylines. You put over Ted-Jake not for a storyline that hadn't started yet, but that this was Ted at his peak and Jake when he was over... so this was Really Huge, even if it didn't have a storyline. Those are two wildly different things. jdw's takeaway is to look at individual cards and draw conclusions about from the specifics of each card -- not helped of course by aforementioned misunderstanding. Jerry: please recall my first post in the thread. I took an entire months worth of JCP cards in 1986 and pointed out to you how many different feuds / storylines they had going on the cards. I wasn't even bothering with individual cards when talking about the 1986 Bash: just the storylines and match ups in general. I did give examples of cards out here in Los Angeles to counter your strange claim that JCP didn't have depth in the midcard. I tended to think that things like two Horsemen matches (one a title change) in the #3 and #4 slots, and RW vs Russians and Magnum-Nikita in the #5 & # 6 slots of an 8 match card as being kind of a deep card. 1 2 --- 3 4 5 6 --- 7 --- 8 Yep... 3-6 would be the middle of the card. So what I was trying to do was correct a slew of your own misunderstandings in that initial response, starting with the goofy notion that Boogie Woogie was the #3 face in JCP and then working through the rest. If no one disagrees that WWF had multiple storylines running spread across different cards, then the point about "meaningless depth" can't apply. This is the argument I've been trying to have. I think the "meaningless depth" criticism only applies up to 86 and after that things start to change. WWF cards in 1986 were similar to 1988. The talent and storyline were spread across cards in almost an identical fashion. Here's one right close to JCP's expansion debut in Los Angeles: WWF @ Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - August 20, 1986 (7,000) Jim Brunzell fought Brutus Beefcake to a draw Hercules pinned Tiger Chung Lee Greg Valentine fought B. Brian Blair to a draw Mike Rotundo & Danny Spivey defeated the Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff when Sheik was pinned after Slick accidentally hit him with his cane; Cpl. Kirchner was the guest referee for the match Paul Orndorff pinned Tito Santana after hitting him with a foreign object handed to him by Bobby Heenan King Kong Bundy & Big John Studd defeated Big & Super Machine via disqualification when Giant Machine interfered The main event was a pushed feud. The New US Express vs Sheik & Volkoff was one of a slew of tag storylines pushed, as was the Dream Team vs Bees split into to matches. If you saw this card, you'd get the pieces fitting together and then the random ones like Mr. Wonderful and Tito. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 And then use it as evidence to say I don't know much about JCP. At this point, I've spent over 40 hours talking about JCP, and god knows how many watching it. And god knows how many more tracking the observers and so on. I don't think it's fair to say I don't know the promotion.To be fair, JCP and early WCW are much different promotions if you're only watching the big shows (and that goes double if you were watching the home video versions of any of those shows, and I don't know if you were or not). We have not been watching week-to-week TV, and the closest thing to that I've had exposure to has been Will's Horsemen set which obviously only gives Horsemen related stuff. What I've tried to do is to use the Observers week-to-week as a means of filling out some of the gaps. If I didn't have a job,a wife, a book to write, an AWA set and a yearbook to watch AND if I was privy to endless amounts of time then I would ideally watch the TV week-to-week since I just love watching studio wrestling. I do understand that this approach will lead to some slightly skewed views. I fucking hate Paul Jones, for example, and think he sucks. Johnny who was watching at that time has fond memories of that feud. The main thing that led to this whole argument was my view -- which I will admit has been strongly influenced by Meltzer moaning so much about the roster and whining about how the promotion needed new talent -- that the JCP roster was thin, or at least a lot thinner than WWF's. A view that jdw thinks is "strange". We established: 1. WWF had greater numbers. 2. That JCP put on stronger cards. This led somewhere down the line to Dylan's argument that WWF's greater numbers -- which I was calling "depth", was in fact "meaningless". I accepted this, but only to a point. When tomk ressurrected the thread a fortnight later, I came back with a view WWF shifted the way it booked from the 84-6 Hogan gold rush period to a more diversified way of running things from 88 onwards where a healthy dose of "meaning" was injected into things -- not necessarily on a card-by-card basis, but across the promotion. jdw rejects this view, or at least, he rejects the idea that 1. that there was any change in the booking and 2. that there was much more "meaning". This was complicated by the fact there was a little misunderstanding over exactly what I was saying. An unfortunate phrase "up and down the card", where I was still talking about roster depth and "meaning", was translated into "ability to put on stronger individual cards". I've done my best to rectify this, although I've yet to see jdw admit that any such misunderstanding took place. It's not in his DNA to contradict himself or go back on anything he's already committed to screen, gods and kings have to play by those rules -- and I respect that. I, not being a god or a king, have made some mistakes in this thread, sure -- I've also been ready and willing to adapt and change my views throughout the debate since it has started -- but I also think there's a general point I've made that stands which is being rather whitewashed. I don't think I'm arguing with someone who will ever concede any ground. I am less wound up this morning than I was last night and don't mind one way or the other. I will thank jdw for his education -- and parts of this have been really educational -- and move on. It's not often threads about wrestling stress me out. I'm also ready to have a different argument -- one that, I think, complicates the idea of roster depth further and one that directly challenges some of the assumptions made in this thread by jdw and others. I have gestured towards this already twice, but will advance it in a different thread because this one is starting to become detrimental to my mental health and also I think there are lots of people put off from taking part because of its general fierceness and the length of posts involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I, actually being a God and a King, approve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 Was there ever a guy who defined "career journeyman" more than Doug Somers? Here he is jobbing to Arachnaman in 1991: Got to be a career low for him. During the match Jim Ross calls him a "journeyman competitor". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Was there ever a guy who defined "career journeyman" more than Doug Somers? Mike Jackson? Steve Lombardi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Low Ki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 I'm fried by this now. Although this guy may not, I appreciate you guys using his "theories" to teach me stuff about wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 "That ain't right... that's ain't right!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.