Top Five Opponents Of....

[Dylan Waco]

Thought this would be a fun topic and a bit different.

 

Toss out a few names at a time and we can run down who we think there top five opponents were and why. I'll get things started with five names and I'll leave the thread open for a little while before I answer myself.

 

Jerry Lawler

2 Cold Scorpio

Nick Bockwinkel

John Cena

William Regal

[jpchicago23]

Do you consider opponents to be a single match or a program or feud?

[Dylan Waco]

Do you consider opponents to be a single match or a program or feud?

 

You decide. For my purposes I would tend to view things through the lens of programs or at least multiple matches. But I don't care if someone applies different logic as long as they are clear about why

[FLIK]

John Cena

In no particular order Punk, Taker, HBK, Edge, Orton

 

The 1st 3 are pretty much responsible for the best matches of his career

[Dylan Waco]

John Cena

In no particular order Punk, Taker, HBK, Edge, Orton

 

The 1st 3 are pretty much responsible for the best matches of his career

 

 

You mean they are responsible as in they did all the work, or they happened to have his best matches. Because watching the Punk and HBK series I don't see how anyone could argue that Cena was being carried.

[Tim Evans]

Jerry Lawler

1. Bill Dundee

2. Dutch Mantell

3. Tommy Rich

4. Austin Idol

5. Bret Hart

 

William Regal

1. Finlay

2. Benoit

3. Goldust

4. Flair

5. HHH

 

Really blanking on Regal feuds besides the first 2. Lawler's was pretty easy but the order could go any way.

[FLIK]

You mean they are responsible as in they did all the work, or they happened to have his best matches

The later I meant

[Loss]

I actually think Jericho is Cena's best repeated opponent. Others have had better matches with him, but his matches with Jericho have been consistently good.

 

Jerry Lawler

1. Bill Dundee

2. Dutch Mantell

3. Terry Funk

4. Kerry Von Erich

5. Randy Savage

 

2 Cold Scorpio (A little harder because he doesn't have a lot of "series" opponents that I like)

1. Chris Benoit

2. Barry Windham

3. Steve Austin

4. Shane Douglas

5. Eddy Guerrero

 

Nick Bockwinkel (Need to see way more, so I expect this to be different in a few years)

1. Curt Hennig

2. Rick Martel

3. Jerry Lawler

4. Jumbo Tsuruta

5. Billy Robinson

 

John Cena

1. Chris Jericho

2. Shawn Michaels

3. Randy Orton

4. Umaga

5. Edge

 

William Regal

1. Chris Benoit

2. Fit Finlay

3. Shinya Hashimoto

4. Psicosis

5. Barry Windham (Even though there's only one match that I know of, it's my favorite Regal match)

[FLIK]

Not sure I could come up with a full 5 for Scorpio but Sabu would be one of them atleast.

 

I actually think Jericho is Cena's best repeated opponent. Others have had better matches with him, but his matches with Jericho have been consistently good.

Yeah I considered Jericho too & Angle. Punk, Michaels & Taker were the only 1's who immediatly come to mind for me when I think of what Cena's greatest matches are however, the rest I had to think about for a minute.

[Loss]

What Cena/Undertaker match am I forgetting about?

[cm funk]

What Cena/Undertaker match am I forgetting about?

The only one I know of is from 2003 when Cena was a heel. I remember it being one of Cena's best matches to that point, but that was 8+ years ago they've both had tons of better matches since

[Marty]

I need to think hard on the others, but for one of them...

 

John Cena:

1. Edge

2. Big Show

3. Randy Orton

4. Umaga

5. Batista

 

With CM Punk getting an honourable mention, and JBL and Chris Jericho not being far behind.

 

I guess what I looked at more than anything is what each guy meant to Cena's career. Edge is the least of all these guys (all 8 of them), but I thought his 2006 run was the first time Cena faced a guy who was an actual heel (since Cena moved to RAW anyway). Haven't seen their RR match in a while, but really liked the SummerSlam and TLC matches that year and I think the SNME match that year was pretty good too. There wasn't really too much difference when they feuded again in 2009, but I liked stuff like their WM triple threat (an underrated match that had to follow Taker-HBK).

 

Big Show is an underrated Cena opponent. Cena works best with heel monsters, and when he worked with Show he got to hide his weaknesses and show his strengths more often than not. Also, the WM20 match got the ball rolling on the Cena face run.

 

Orton and Cena have had a number of good matches over the years. Orton in 2009 (heck, even today) had expressions that were almost Edge-like, but like Edge, was willing to play an effective heel. I really like the I Quit match.

 

I've seen this place long enough to know that I don't need to state a case for Umaga.

 

Batista is another diamond in the rough as far as Cena opponents go. Only a couple of matches come to mind, but what Batista really brings is a nice Clash Of The Titans feel in both matches with Cena. Probably could've had a very nice series if Batista stuck around longer.

 

What Cena/Undertaker match am I forgetting about?

The only one I know of is from 2003 when Cena was a heel. I remember it being one of Cena's best matches to that point, but that was 8+ years ago they've both had tons of better matches since

 

They also had a Smackdown match that Cena got the win back due to A-Train interference. I haven't seen that match in ages, not sure if it was as good as the Vengeance one.

[Dylan Waco]

Jerry Lawler

 

1. Bill Dundee

2. Terry Funk

3. Dutch Mantell

4. Kerry Von Erich

5. Nick Bockwinkel

 

Lots of contenders here and I could see filling out slots four and five with a half dozen other names (Hennig, Idol, Rich, Savage, Bret, Gilbert). One is obvious. When you have 35 years of good to great matches with someone it's not hard. I am biased toward Funk but I have him over Dutch because the best Terry v. Jerry matches from their physical primes matches up very closely with the best Dutch v. Jerry matches and Terry/Jerry took their show on the indy road and continued to have high end stuff as recently as two months ago. Kerry and Nick get marks for being the best of Lawler as "traveling champion" and "challenging traveling champion"

 

2 Cold Scorpio

 

1. Sabu

2. Shane Douglas

3. Barry Windham

4. Chris Benoit

5. Rob Van Dam

 

Jericho has a case here and I could maybe be convinced he belongs. Sabu and Scorp had a great series of matches. Scorp was one of the better guys at making Sabu's stuff fit into a well laid out match without killing what made Sabu Sabu. Douglas could easily be number one, but I rated Sabu higher because there are more quality matches there. Bottom three is tough but the Barry matches have a different feel even now, Benoit was a good traveling partner for him and while I'm not sure Van Dam should get a ton of credit, Scorp has two of the best four or five RVD matches I've ever seen.

 

Nick Bockwinkel

 

1. Curt Hennig

2. Wahoo McDaniel

3. Jerry Lawler

4. Rick Martel

5. Larry Zbyszko

 

Verne probably belongs on this list but I've not seen much of their 70's matches. Hogan, Hansen, Jumbo and Billy Robinson could easily place and perhaps Billy should. He does have that AJPW match too as well. But I went with Larry in the five spot because Bock seemed to really work a more high octane style against Larry that he rarely worked in non-studio matches. Wahoo is so high because their best match is one of the best matches I've ever seen. Rated Lawler over Martel because those matches are the best of Bock as traveling champ and as a Memphis fan feel like a huge deal even now. Hennig is easily his best opponent in terms of depth of great matches from where I sit.

 

John Cena

 

1. CM Punk

2. Umaga

3. Shawn Michaels

4. Edge

5. Randy Orton

 

Punk should be number one. The difference between him and the other guys is that none have both the really great matches and the high end tv matches the way Cena and Punk do. Plus we have house show footage from Cena v. Punk that tells us how good they are there as well. Umaga is tempting at one just because it was a perfect dynamic and their best match is so great. Everyone knows i'm not a fan of post-comeback Michaels,but I thought Cena was his best post-comeback opponent and their matches hold up very well. Went with Edge narrowly over Orton because I really love their two marquee gimmick matches (the LMS match and the TLC match) and they don't have any matches that I thought were disappointing whereas Randy and Cena do. Having said that Cena v. Orton from Summerslam 07 is a really awesome match.

 

William Regal

 

1. Finlay

2. Chris Benoit

3. Larry Zbyszko

4. Arn Anderson

5. Christian

 

Bunch of guys who could fill out the bottom three spots and I almost feel bad leaving Danielson off. Sting is another guy I could have seen on there. Went with Christian because I thought their series of matches from 09 was really fucking good stuff and the closest thing Regal has had to a real program of merit in some time. The best Arn matches are great. Regal's run v. Larry is crazy underrated, with all three of their big matches being quality and all three being different. The SN match is a legit contender for top ten in WCW history. I actually think it's tough pickings between Benoit and Finlay in the top slot, but went with Finlay by a small margin only because I thought their best matches had more variation than the Benoit matches did.

 

 

 

 

 

Five more:

 

Tajiri

Dustin Rhodes

Bob Backlund

Brian Pillman

Bret Hart

[FLIK]

What Cena/Undertaker match am I forgetting about?

They had several in 03 & 04 and they've gotten a bit mixed up in my head. I recall them all being pretty good but looking through old results real quick I think the major one i'm thinking of is their 04 tv match on Smackdown whear they got like 20+.

[wwxwce]

Tajiri :

 

Little Guido

Super Crazy

Rey Mysterio

Dreamer

Corino

[FLIK]

Dustin Rhodes

Vader, Austin, Bunkhouse Buck, Jericho & Christian

 

Bob Backlund

Bret, Adrian Adonis, Slaughter, Inoki, Takada

 

Bret Hart

Owen, Backlund, Austin, Bulldog, Nash

[JerryvonKramer]

Dustin Rhodes

Steve Austin

Bunkhouse Buck

Rick Rude

Arn Anderson

Ted Dibiase

[tomk]

Big Show is an underrated Cena opponent. Cena works best with heel monsters, and when he worked with Show he got to hide his weaknesses and show his strengths more often than not. Also, the WM20 match got the ball rolling on the Cena face run.

I want to seconf this. I look forward to anytime these two match up. Not just because plays to Cena's ability to sell and bump but also becuase Cena has really fun almost Backlundesque power moves where you really get a sense of every stage in what goes into a lift.

 

Surprised that JBL didn't make anyones Cena opponent list.

[Marty]

Bret Hart:

1. Steve Austin

2. Jerry Lawler

3. Undertaker

4. Owen Hart

5. Curt Hennig

 

Not fully cemented on the final two, as I feel those spots could also go to Bob Backlund, Davey Boy Smith, Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels (specifically for the mid-92 stuff). The first three I'm certain on, for various reasons.

[Frankensteiner]

Brian Pillman

1. Jushin Liger

2. Barry Windham

3. Lex Luger

4. Steve Austin

5. Ricky Steamboat

 

I like the Liger matches an example where workrate Pillman was hitting on all cylinders. Pillman/Windham is excellent, and one of Pillman’s few chances to work a traditional feud with someone else. The Luger matches were fun too and had really good crowd heat. With Austin, they had good matches pre- and post- Blonds run. Steamboat was more of a tag feud but they did work some excellent singles. Although I wish I could think of some other good heel opponents since I really did like Pillman more as a face. I guess an honorable mention to Flair.

 

Bret Hart

1. Owen Hart

2. Steve Austin

3. Bob Backlund

4. Diesel

5. Mr. Perfect

 

I have Owen ahead of Austin which some people might disagree with but I like the WM X match better than Survivor Series ’96, and the cage match from SummerSlam better than the submission match from WrestleMania. And then you have to factor in that Bret/Owen worked a number of other good matches with different stips (marathon, lumberjack, no holds barred) and produced some really good tags. Bret/Backlund had kind of a unique series of matches for the WWF at the time. Bret and Diesel did not work a traditional feud but the matches, even though they were spread out, did build off each other. It’s unfortunate the blow off wasn’t better, much like with Bret/Backlund. With Perfect, I like how the matches got progressively better over the years to the point where the ’93 one is a legitimate top 20 contender for greatest WWF matches ever. Honorable mentions to Shawn Michaels and Yokozuna.

[smkelly]

John Cena

1. Umaga

2. Edge

3. Batista

4. Punk

5. Jericho

 

William Regal

1. Finlay

2. Benoit

 

Bret Hart

1. Owen

2. Davey Boy

3. Benoit

4. Hennig

5. Piper

[Loss]

William Regal

1. Finlay

2. Benoit

CHEATER!

[jdw]

Five more:

 

Bob Backlund

In chron order since I'd have to think more about ranking them:

 

* Antonio Inoki

 

First, much less seen match (also 60 minutes) is a little tentative. The second match is the more widely seen 60 minute match... and it's pretty much as good of a 60 minute draw from the 60s to early 80s as you'll see. Just exceptional all around work in the context of the time. After that there are a lot of good matches. I love their Miami match since it's not a "home" crowd for either of them, but they do get the crowd into it.

 

These two really worked well together. It's as if they both found an opponent that they could do all their mat stuff with, all their teases with, and whip out all their high spots with. Almost the Flair-Steamboat pairing for Bob of someone who was completely on the same page. The only thing missing is that they were both face by nature, and quite effective faces. That means this doesn't tap strongly into Bob's facedom with a strong hell.

 

 

* Don Muraco

 

Two sets of matches: 1981 and 1983.

 

In 1981 we have the second MSG match (Texas Death Match), the first Philly match (60 minute draw), the second Philly match (90 minute time limit that of course doesn't go 90) and a Cap Centre Texas Death Match. We're missing from circulation the first MSG match, which is also a 60 minute draw and one of the Grails. The MSG TDM is great. The Philly 60 minute draw is a really interesting example of how old school wrestlers broke down a 60 minute match in terms of layout, especially if they weren't trading falls. I can get people who'd find it boring because it is a long match, and there is no real payoff. I find it interesting, and the work is really solid/good if not super exciting for folks. The second Philly match is another good one. It doesn't have the epic feel of the MSG blow off, but the two work well with each other. The Cap Centre TDM is like a Nitro Style match between the two. Not epic or great~!, but a good amount of cool stuff

 

In 1983 we have MSG matches from 2/83 & 3/83. The first is quite a good match, and one I wish we had around the time Will made the Backlund set. It would be a keeper. The second one is a 20 minute match where there's a 7-5-8 split to the match where the opening 7 and finishing 8 are the usual good stuff, but the 5 minute stretch (last part of Bob's opening dominance) is bad. It's worth watching just as an example of what can work and what doesn't work in a match up of guys who work well together, and also as an example of Bob Fans don't always mindlessly shill for Bob.

 

The two tragic missing things are from 1981:

 

- MSG 60 minute draw

- Boston cage match

 

The MSG draw is probably in the vault, so we might get to see it. Given the way the great MSG blow off > good Philly blow played out, it's very possible that the MSG 60:00 draw > Philly 60:00 draw.... and that would be something to see.

 

There are 4 minutes of hand held clips from the Boston cage match, and it looks like one of the best WWF cage matches of the era. The shit on the clips is awesome. This is likely never to be found in more length as they weren't taping in Boston at the time.

 

 

* Greg Valentine

 

Really four sets of match ups: 1979, 1981 and 1984.

 

The 60 minute match in 1979 is terrific... I think it exceeded everyone's expectations when it washed up. The blow off isn't high on the list of good Backlund matches, though it does have one of the coolest finishes ever. I'd have to watch it again to point out what's off, but my recollection is that it pretty much just laid there.

 

1981 had a pair of good MSG matches. They're pretty much sprints compared to the 1979 and 1984 matches. I've yet to see the Philly Cage match (which was early 1982 if I recall) in full, only the edited version that was on CHV release.

 

The one 1984 match that's out was surprisingly good. Slow starter, methodical... but they really got the crowd into it. I enjoyed the hell out of it.

 

 

* Ken Patera

 

We have their first and third MSG matches along with the blow off / transition match in Philly. The two MSG matches are excellent, with the Texas Death Match just off the charts great. The one Philly match in circulation is solid, good work... but had a special ref and the point of it was to set up a Patera vs Special Ref match on the next Philly card. That does take away from it. In the end it's not an essential match since MSG has an epic blow off.

 

 

* Sargent Slaughter

 

Their 1980 MSG match is actually *not* good at all. Don't know what was wrong with the two, but it didn't click at all.

 

The feud clicked in Philly in 1981. Excellent first match, solid enough second match, epic great classic awesome cage match blow off.

 

In 1983 only one of their MSG matches is in circulation: 05/23/83. That's a heck of a match at a time when Bob is suppose to suck. Crowd eats the shit up, and the two work really well together. There matches from Philly are available: 08/13/83, 09/24/83 Texas Death Match and 10/22/83 Scicilian Stretcher Match. I've only seen the middle match. My wrap up comment on it:

 

Not a bad match. If this were the second match in the 1981 trilogy in Philly, it would be pretty good and likely would have gotten a lot of heat for exactly the same match though with a slightly different finish to lead to the cage match. [...] This had a good amount decent stuff in it, Sarge did a bunch of inspired bumping in it, and they did a good job of keeping things moving along. The 05/23/83 MSG is better than this: the layout was better and it really played well to a heated crowd. But this does make me want to see the 10/22/83 Scicilian Stretcher Match that blew off the feud. For a 1983 Yearbook, one might be able to pair the 05/23/83 MSG match as a "first match" in the feud with the third match in the Spectrum as the blow off.

I still need to track down the other two Philly matches. Even if those disappoint and the feud peters out in Philly in 1983, we do get three good-to-great matches in 1981, and one very good MSG match in 1983. The two worked quite well together.

 

John

[Frankensteiner]

How about these guys:

 

Tracy Smothers

Rick Martel

Sting

Tito Santana

[Ricky Jackson]

I guess I feel obligated to at least do a Tito list:

 

-Greg Valentine

-Randy Savage

-Curt Hennig

-Rick Martel

-Paul Orndorff

 

No surprise that it's really all about the first two for me. Despite starting a thread in the man's honour, there are a ton of Tito matches I've never seen. I'm sure there are some gems from his AWA stint, and plenty of WWF that could change the last two names on the list. Tito-Hennig from SNME in 1990 is a really great match. Orndorff makes the list solely because as a young fan I remember finding the time limit draw between the two from an early CHV being a pretty fun match.