WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[Bix]

Does George Napolitano have any sort of case for being on the ballot?

I don't think so. Prolific photographer but I don't think the magazines he ran were anything of note and he's best known as the guy who published a bunch of coffee table books that were quickly remaindered.

[jdw]

Not to discount Saks entirely as I get his point and think it is a reasonable way of looking at things as a rule, but how would we treat that quote if it was say Jim Duggan talking about JYD era Mid-South with Watts as Weston? Or Paul Orndorff talking about Hulkamania with Vince as Weston?

 

On the specifics of who was actually the head honcho on the masthead/theoretically on top of the heap, I can tell you from working with magazines for several years that that means very little in the scheme of things.

I'm going to go back to my point:

 

Jerry Jarrett vs Eddie Marlin

 

To amplify:

 

Vince McMahon vs Frank Tunney

Verne Gagne vs Stanley Blackburn

 

If we didn't know better, Tunny and Blackburn would be in the HOF and every Memphis Fanboy would be talking about getting Marlin in because Memphis kicked ass.

 

Except...

 

We know better.

 

My problem with Apter is that (i) we don't fully know better, but (ii) we know enough.

 

He didn't write the shit. He didn't edit the shit as much as people. He wasn't one of the forces in the office cranking out the product. He also wasn't Weston backing the whole enterprise, launching all those magazine to the point that one was coming out nearly every week and employing a whole bunch of folks (including being able to cover Bill's expense account).

 

So we know enough: for a front man, he wasn't the anchor in getting the product launched or out the door.

 

But we don't fully know: no one have a great series of interviews of Weston. Peter King seems to have vanished. Stu is active, his interview is enlightening... but (i) the interviewer doesn't really get overly into the nuts and bolts of London Publishing, and (ii) Stu is a nice guy who doesn't really want to throw anyone under the bus.

 

So the people pushing for Apter are pushing for symbolism.

 

Well... fuck it, let's push Tunney into the HOF. He was President of the WWF during Wrestlemania 3, the biggest most important show in the history of pro wrestling. He was President during that entire period. President's run companies, so all of that success was due to him. In addition, he rolled Toronto into the WWF, giving the company an opening into the massive Canadian market which turned into a hotbed for the company.

 

Slam dunk HOFer.

 

Except... We know better.

 

Voting for something that you don't know, or don't fully know, it just silly. Look at the worst folks in the HOF, the ones people talk about tossing out. Those are almost all people that people generally think they know more about now than when they got inducted. The problem is that once they're in, they aren't getting out.

 

John

[Matt D]

I don't know if it's so cut and dry. There was a level of autonomy that Apter had that Tunney or Marlin didn't. Apter was out there in the field DOING SHIT instead of following a loose script. It still doesn't mean he should be given the credit, but I do think he served in a different role than Marlin or Tunney. I think on some level I'd compare him more to Monsoon or JJ Dillon under Dusty actually, but i'm really just pulling stuff out of my ass here.

[Dylan Waco]

I get your point John but I think if we are being honest the extreme examples you are offering are pretty silly.

 

There is literally no reason to believe Apter = Stanley Blackburn. I know of no one who believes that Apter was purely a figure head who did no actual work besides pretending to take pictures at ringside (which would be the correct analogy to Tunney or Blackburn) and giving out kayfabed awards on tv.

 

We do know enough to know that Apter took a lot of photos for the mag, worked directly with a lot of promotions and wrestlers (there is enough available in shoots to verify this and I myself know of one promoter who directly dealt with Apter when working with the PWI people), wrote a fair amount of copy and was of course the public face of the company.

 

I get that you don't want to let someone in who has a light resume. But Apter's had a 40 year career. He's not Angle. He's not Ultimo. He's not even Shawn when Shawn got in. If it would be a mistake to induct him, it would be a different category of mistake.

 

I would like to know more about Apter and Weston in general. It would also be nice to have more Hans Schmidt matches on tape and to get an idea of how well he drew for all of those NWA title matches. It would be nice to have real attendance figures for the Portland territory. It would be nice if we had raw data on merch sales for John Cena.

 

That's not to say Apter is Cena or Hans or Buddy. But lack of knowledge is always an issue to one degree or another. The question is do we know ENOUGH about Apter to feel confident in putting him in....

[Dylan Waco]

Just to be clear, Apter may not be Schmidt or Cena either. But I think he is closer to them than he is to Jack Tunney or Stanley Blackburn.

 

Setting that aside for a moment, over at Classics Steve Yohe says Meltzer told him he dropped the pre-1950 candidates from the ballot which is why DeGlane vanished. Apparently he is making some sort of vet committee concept official policy.

 

I'm hoping this means Sonnenberg gets in this year and I have reason to believe he will. If Pat LaPrade shared his DeGlane in Montreal research with Meltzer it's possible DeGlane gets in this year too, though I am doubtful of two quasi-fiat inductions in a year where I suspect multiple people will be voted in (Cena and Schmidt I think are going in at minimum).

 

If DeGlane doesn't get in this year, I'm guessing the release of Pat and Bertrand Herbert's book on Montreal could make his case more visible with Dave and get him in next year. Either way I think a certain podcast co-host of mine needs to send over the stuff he's dug up on DeGlane in the Maritimes to Meltzer for a future bio.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well... fuck it, let's push Tunney into the HOF. He was President of the WWF during Wrestlemania 3, the biggest most important show in the history of pro wrestling. He was President during that entire period. President's run companies, so all of that success was due to him. In addition, he rolled Toronto into the WWF, giving the company an opening into the massive Canadian market which turned into a hotbed for the company.

 

Slam dunk HOFer.

[Loss]

I don't understand how you can say we don't know what he did on one hand and cite all of these things you know he didn't do on the other. It sounds like you already have your mind made up. You don't think Bill Apter is a HOFer, and that's fine. But at least say it's because all the evidence points to him just being a figurehead, instead of saying we don't know enough about his day-to-day responsibilities.

[puropotsy]

Here are some interesting finds

 

 

 

 

[Dylan Waco]

Looking at something you sent me a while back and DeGlane also headlined one of the biggest drawing shows (up to that point) in Maritimes wrestling history in 1932 v. Charlie Stack. Obviously you can't build an HoF case on that but it's notable as it shows he had drawing power even in various territories and regions.

[puropotsy]

Looking at something you sent me a while back and DeGlane also headlined one of the biggest drawing shows (up to that point) in Maritimes wrestling history in 1932 v. Charlie Stack. Obviously you can't build an HoF case on that but it's notable as it shows he had drawing power even in various territories and regions.

Yes, he was the first World Champion to come into that territory and the build-up was pretty big.

 

Here is the excerpt from the write-up I have done on that era

 

World Heavyweight Champion Henri Deglane was brought in for a title match against Charlie Stack in a feature of the Nova Scotia Provincial Exhibition on October 22, 1932. Deglane had previously won the title from Ed “Strangler” Lewis in Montreal and Stack was touted as an amateur star and former member of the American Olympic team. The attendance was reported as 3,000 people, noted to be one of the largest wrestling crowds in the area’s history. The match last over an hour and saw Deglane win the first fall with a bodyslam in 32:05. Stack used a reverse waist hold to pin Deglane after another 13:17. The match ended after another 20:11 when Deglane fell on top of stack for a pinfall when Stack was attempting to throw him over the ropes. Irslinger defeated Al Beveridge in the other match on the card.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't he fully got the impact of the Beauty Pair at the time. I certainly didn't, other than as the pre-Crush Girls... just not how BIG they were in that context. So take the under credited Beauty Pair then add in Sato being seen as the anchor champ on top for three years.

 

On that trip, Dave did ask a couple of Japanese, people involved with AJW and/or going back in the business to the 70s, about the joshi candidates. That's what he came up with.

 

There hasn't been a lot of pro-Ueda stuff over the years. I'm pretty open to not only asking Dave to get her on the ballot, but also voting for her. Would like to know more. Good short piece on the Pair here:

 

http://www.amyaction.com/ajw_beautypair.html

 

Would love to know more... and have more to point Dave to.

 

The Brothers of course deserve to be in. I'll take some blame for not sending him an e-mail in June to make sure he got on the list.

I think it would be next to impossible to get Ueda in on her own. The perception that Sato was the bigger star is probably true given that she stayed on as the ace while Ueda's post-wrestling acting career failed to take off. Someone would have to do a bunch of research about how Sato vs. Monsta Rippa, the Black Pair and gaijin women drew compared to the peak of the Beauty Pair phenomenon where they were able to run Budokan. They pushed Ueda to the WWWA title before Sato but I don't know the reason why. It may not have meant that much in those days given how often AJW belts changed hands and the fact that she went over in her hometown. On the other hand, she was the better looking of the two and they hadn't yet established that lineage of athletic, sporty types that went from Sato to Yokota to Nagayo and beyond. Unless someone can come up with some clear numbers, it's really a matter of whether you recognise how big the Beauty Pair phenomenon was in terms of mainstream success. Even now, if you mention Beauty Pair or Kakemeguru Seishun to Japanese women of a certain age they instantly know who you're talking about. Kakemeguru Seishun sold 800,000 copies and you can still sing it at karaoke. Every now and again they use it on TV. Pretty good for two wrestlers who couldn't sing or dance to save their lives.

[gordi]

Kakemeguru Seishun sold 800,000 copies and you can still sing it at karaoke.

 

Do you ever do that? I do. Fairly often.

[ohtani's jacket]

Sure, it's always a crowd pleaser.

[gordi]

Sure, it's always a crowd pleaser.

 

It really is! This apparent digression is also on topic, because it really does relate to how huge the Beauty Pair were as a cultural phenomenon. It really does depend on age, though. It's my experience that literally EVERY Japanese woman in their late thirties and older immediately recognizes that song and is delighted to hear it performed at karaoke by a white guy... but if a woman is under, say, 35 there's a decent chance she'll draw a complete blank.

 

The Beauty Pair were hugely popular in their time. There's no disputing that! It's not just that Sato and Ueda paved the way for the Crush Gals, it's that the Beauty Pair were the mainstream joshi puroresu success story of the 1970s.

[Childs]

Did you guys catch that piece on the site today advocating for Edge's induction? If I'm Dave, I'm embarrassed to be associated with that kind of dreck.

[Loss]

Did you guys catch that piece on the site today advocating for Edge's induction? If I'm Dave, I'm embarrassed to be associated with that kind of dreck.

I did. I like the idea of allowing guest columns to advocate people for the HOF, as it's the perfect use of the columns feature Dave seems to want on the site so badly. But yeah, there needs to be some serious vetting.

[Dylan Waco]

I didn't see it? Who wrote it? I know Musgrave had a piece up the other day on The Sharpe Brothers which I found really interesting.

 

I wonder if I wrote something on Buddy Rose if he would take it?

[Loss]

Why Edge Should Be In The HOF

 

Terri Bey is the author, who I'll point out has an email address of edgegirl7. Just saying.

 

Dylan, I say it's worth a shot.

[Al]

I wouldn't object to Observer subscribers like her being given spots to write a piece in support of their favorite candidate. Assuming everyone has that opportunity. More hype for the Hall of Fame is a good thing.

[rovert]

I really don't to be seen as sexiest here but Terri is a pretty diehard fangirl for Edge - you know the type that doesn't like to hear anything bad AT ALL about Edge and anyone who dislikes him is biased in some way. We all have our favourites and/or blind spots from youth but Terri/missedgehead is a fan club President type and her posts were ridiculed on the F4W even back when the board was tamer.

 

Shes sends Dave stuff for the daily update and for the PPV feedback. So Dave knows her.

[jdw]

I don't understand how you can say we don't know what he did on one hand and cite all of these things you know he didn't do on the other. It sounds like you already have your mind made up. You don't think Bill Apter is a HOFer, and that's fine. But at least say it's because all the evidence points to him just being a figurehead, instead of saying we don't know enough about his day-to-day responsibilities.

When I ask people what Bill did in putting together the Apter Mags, generally speaking the pro-Apter folks "don't know". Just that he was the figure head, and since they loved the mags when they were kids, let's voted Bill in.

 

That's the "don't know" part.

 

John

[jdw]

I think it would be next to impossible to get Ueda in on her own. The perception that Sato was the bigger star is probably true given that she stayed on as the ace while Ueda's post-wrestling acting career failed to take off. Someone would have to do a bunch of research about how Sato vs. Monsta Rippa, the Black Pair and gaijin women drew compared to the peak of the Beauty Pair phenomenon where they were able to run Budokan. They pushed Ueda to the WWWA title before Sato but I don't know the reason why. It may not have meant that much in those days given how often AJW belts changed hands and the fact that she went over in her hometown. On the other hand, she was the better looking of the two and they hadn't yet established that lineage of athletic, sporty types that went from Sato to Yokota to Nagayo and beyond. Unless someone can come up with some clear numbers, it's really a matter of whether you recognise how big the Beauty Pair phenomenon was in terms of mainstream success. Even now, if you mention Beauty Pair or Kakemeguru Seishun to Japanese women of a certain age they instantly know who you're talking about. Kakemeguru Seishun sold 800,000 copies and you can still sing it at karaoke. Every now and again they use it on TV. Pretty good for two wrestlers who couldn't sing or dance to save their lives.

I don't have a problem with the "Beauty Pair" going in as well as Sato already being in. I actually am supportive of people who warrant going in both solo and as a "group", such as Choshu as a solo and as a member of Ishingundan.

 

John

[jdw]

I didn't see it? Who wrote it? I know Musgrave had a piece up the other day on The Sharpe Brothers which I found really interesting.

The funniest thing about the Sharpes are that they aren't in the US Region despite, you know, being based in the US their entire career sans an impactful trip to Japan. It would be like Thesz being in a region other than the US.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

In news no one other than me will care about Matt Farmer ended up voting for Buddy Rose after all. Maybe my pestering is making an impact. Probably not.

 

Also Meltzer supposedly wrote some dismissive thing about Patera at the website.

[NintendoLogic]

Cut the joke.

 

He was on the ballot. He didn't get votes. Since that time no voter has asked he be put on. His career is over so there is nothing new in his career that has changed.

 

He was a very worthy person to be put on the ballot. As a candidate, well, he was a candidate.

Dave posted that in response to someone accusing him of blackballing Patera.