WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[Dylan Waco]

To be fair I would never accuse Dave of blackballing Patera.

 

He has blackballed JYD, but not Patera.

 

Would be nice for Musgrave, KrisZ, jdw, et to ask for him to go back on the ballot if that's all it takes.

[rovert]

Let's be clear Dave was responding to a gimmick troll who pushes Patera on a largely non-substantive basis EVERY YEAR.

[Dylan Waco]

Let's be clear Dave was responding to a gimmick troll who pushes Patera on a largely non-substantive basis EVERY YEAR.

Got it.

 

I just heard from a third party that Patera had come up and Dave had responded in a pretty dismissive way.

 

I have no clue what goes on at that board. Does anyone even try and use that forum to advance arguments for candidates? I have my reasons for not subscribing despite generally thinking Dave is easily the best at what he does, but I would almost consider subscribing if there was any serious discussion on that forum that allowed for advancing discussion of candidates. From everything I hear though there isn't.

[Loss]

Yeah, that was me. I didn't realize there was an ironic Patera advocate at that board.

[Matt D]

If only I was better with photoshop.

[FLIK]

, but I would almost consider subscribing if there was any serious discussion on that forum that allowed for advancing discussion of candidates. From everything I hear though there isn't.

Alan4L's section is semi decent if you have an interest in modern Japan & Indy wrestling, Karl Stern's section is OK if you're into classic wrestling but there's little activity in it as very few posters use that part of the board. The rest of the F4W forum is a worthless shit hole full of trolls, idiots & butt kissers.

 

Ppl try to get decent conversations going thear but largely it's a wasted effort.

[khawk20]

If only I was better with photoshop.

[rovert]

Let's be clear Dave was responding to a gimmick troll who pushes Patera on a largely non-substantive basis EVERY YEAR.

Got it.

 

I just heard from a third party that Patera had come up and Dave had responded in a pretty dismissive way.

 

I have no clue what goes on at that board. Does anyone even try and use that forum to advance arguments for candidates? I have my reasons for not subscribing despite generally thinking Dave is easily the best at what he does, but I would almost consider subscribing if there was any serious discussion on that forum that allowed for advancing discussion of candidates. From everything I hear though there isn't.

 

I kill a lot of time there and I am one of the main trolls. The MMA section is fairly interesting if you are interested in the business of MMA and Alan's forum is a good resource for Indies & Puro. But yeah there is nothing in the way of meaningful Wrestling discussion and decreasingly so. Dave is FAR more likely to address a troll or antagnistic post than a question about his own newsletter or a "Dear Dave" thread. The Patera guy has a 115 page thread based on his (made up) experiences with Tranny escorts which posters play along with. Yep.

 

On a more redeeming note looking forward to the Hall of Fame podcast with Alan4L, Justin Shapiro and Todd Martin that is out this week or so.

[Dylan Waco]

Meant to cross post this here from the WC thread but Dave and I did our HoF show with Kurt Brown the other day:

 

 

Episode 26 of the Wrestling Culture Podcast is an Observer HoF discussion and includes lengthy Lucha talk, lots of love for wrestling magazines of old, me going on and on and on about Buddy Rose and our guest Vandal Drummond (Kurt Brown) adding great personal stories to it, Dave Musgrave putting over The Sharpe Brothers, and a whole ton of other awesomeness. Great show.

 

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc

[FLIK]

Was the full list of everyone on the ballot posted here or in another thread? Searched back 10 pages and couldn't find it

[Dylan Waco]

via Steve Yohe at WC.

 

 

The 2012 ballot is out:

 

 

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Gene & Ole Anderson

The Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto)

Red Bastien

June Byers

Pepper Gomez

Dick Hutton

Hans Schmidt

Kinji Shibuya

Wilbur Snyder

Chief Jay Strongbow

John Tolos

Enrique Torres

Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Saul Weingeroff

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods

 

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Batista

John Cena

Edge

Jeff Hardy

Owen Hart

Curt Hennig

Kane

Ivan Koloff

Brock Lesnar

Fabulous Moolah

Pedro Morales

Dick Murdoch

Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)

Buddy Rose

Sgt. Slaughter

Jimmy Snuka

Sting

Mr. Wrestling II

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES

George Gordienko

Gran Hamada

Volk Han

Masahiko Kimura

Seiji Sakaguchi

Kensuke Sasaki

Mike & Ben Sharpe

Kiyoshi Tamura

Hiroshi Tanahashi

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES

Perro Aguayo Jr.

Atlantis

Cien Caras

Karloff Lagarde

Blue Panther

L.A. Park

Huracan Ramirez

Vampiro

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Jr.

Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES

Jim Breaks

Big Daddy

Horst Hoffman

Marty Jones

Billy Joyce

Mick McManus

Kendo Nagasaki

Jackie Pallo

Rollerball Mark Rocco

Johnny Saint

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES

Spyros Arion

Johnny Barend

Carlos Colon

Domenic DeNucci

Killer Karl Kox

Mark Lewin

Mario Milano

 

NON-WRESTLERS

Lou Albano

Bill Apter

Jim Crockett Jr.

Gary Hart

Jerry Jarrett

Gorilla Monsoon

Dr. Alfonso Morales

Don Owen

Jesse Ventura

[Dylan Waco]

And......guys I would vote for if I had a ballot:

 

Historical Candidates

 

Hans Schmidt

Kinji Shibuya

Enrique Torres

 

I've done a lot of reading, looking at results, studying title histories, et from guys who fall in this category at this point. I can see interesting cases for a lot of them, but I feel the best two candidates are pretty easily Schmidt and Torres. There is a thread at Classics that covers a lot of the reasons why based on studies of what each guy did during their prime, but I would also note that both guys had solid post-prime and pre-prime value as well. The Torres brothers were an extremely hot tag team in Georgia and elsewhere and that is almost an after thought on Enrique's resume. The same with Schmidt's run with the Montreal version of the World title. The point is these guys had pretty strong careers across the board, with HoF level peaks. Schmidt in particular has some huge gates/attendance figures to his name and Torres appears to have been almost as hot in St. Louis as he was in LA. Schmidt is an easier pick than Torres, but I think both are fairly easy picks.

 

Shibuya is more controversial because he was primarily known as a tag specialist. Still he was a tag specialist who was booked on top more often than not with multiple partners, across multiple territories. I was shocked to see how big a star he was in the Midwest. I'm not sure if he was the first Japanese heel of note (almost definitely not I would guess), but he appears to have been a prototype for what they gimmick would become and he drew everywhere he went. Of the people I would vote for he's the one I am least sure of, but I would advocate voting for him anyhow as I don't want him to fall off the ballot without a closer look.

 

Modern Performers

 

Pedro Morales

John Cena

Ivan Koloff

Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)

Buddy Rose

 

Most of my views on these guys have been fleshed out to an absurd degree already. I have been a bit unsure of Morales in the past but when you look at how successful his reign was for Vince, how over he was, et. it really feels wrong for him to be out.

 

Japan

 

Gran Hamada

 

Random Island Category

 

Carlos Colon

 

I'm not really up on the Australia stuff, but I think this is a silly category and I think it's silly Colon isn't already in. It's arguable he's the biggest draw not already in.

 

Non-performers

 

Don Owen

Bill Apter

Jerry Jarrett

 

I don't feel qualified to vote on the other categories, though there are at least two or three Lucha candidates that seem like they really should be in and I would be tempted to vote for Breaks from Europe

[Johnny Sorrow]

How in the world is Captain Lou Albano not in already? And I've read the thread, doesn't matter a bit. Albano was a huge star in WWWF/WWF. Of all of the legendary managers there back in the day, he was the one we all hated the most..then loved. He crossed over to mainstream. He deserves to be in.

[Dylan Waco]

No way in hell I would vote for Albano before Jimmy Hart gets in. Hell Hart can't even get on the ballot.

 

That's not a knock on Albano. I'm an agnostic on him as an individual candidate. The stuff tomk and others put together on Classics is enough to build a case, but I actually think what it really shows is that his historic role is overstated by Meltzer. I've seen a fair amount of WWF tv and arena footage from the period where he was hot and would give him some points for crossover effect. But I would prefer The Three Wisemen go in as a group and I certainly can't see a case for Albano over Hart.

[ohtani's jacket]

Why would you vote for Breaks?

[puropotsy]

And here is my ballot:

 

HISTORICAL PERFORMERS

 

Hans Schmidt- An absolute must for me and a man who I refer to as the Gorgeous George of foreign heels.

 

MODERN PERFORMERS

 

John Cena- Top money-maker of his generation and in my mind a solid performer. If he wasn't always compared to Rock and Austin coming before him people's opinions of him would be higher.

 

Edge- A good heel in an era without them, a great performer who helped to get Cena over.

 

Ivan Koloff- A top draw as a heel in the 1970's and a great worker.

 

Pedro Morales- Major draw at Madison Square Gardens and a long-term component of WWE. Like Cena, if he wasn't always compared to Bruno people would have a higher opinion on him. And honestly a lot of people don't stack up well as a draw against Bruno.

 

Dick Murdoch- Consistent main eventer in North America and a great performer throughout North America and Japan. An influence on a lot of different wrestlers, continuing to today when Kevin Steen has been compared to him on ROH tv.

 

Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)- The ying to the Midnight Express's yang. A big draw as a team in numerous territories and companies in the 80s and 90s and even the 00s. A major influence on a number of teams.

 

Buddy Rose- See any poast done by Dylan on this topic.

 

Sting- When he was good he wasn't a draw. When he was a draw he wasn't good. But at times he was good and at times he was a draw and I can't imagine wrestling in the past 25 years without him.

 

JAPAN

 

Mike & Ben Sharpe

I have posted the write-up I did on them to my blog for any interested:

Ben and Mike Sharpe- The First Gaijin Superstars n Japan

 

NON-WRESTLERS

 

Bill Apter-You can argue if Apter was the influence or if it was others at the maagzines but for my money he was a major part of my life as a wrestling fan.

 

Jim Crockett Jr.- A long run as a promoter with one of hte hottest territories there's been.

 

Jerry Jarrett- Influential and successful booker who really should be in.

[Dylan Waco]

Why would you vote for Breaks?

I don't think I would vote for Breaks or anyone from Europe for a variety of reasons.

 

But I am high on Breaks. When I was watching a lot of WoS he consistently stood out as one of the better/unique guys there, who was excellent at building heat. Not only do I think he was a great worker, but he seemed to consistently have a title from 62/63 forward. When I was looking through title histories last year he had a good bit more than Saint IIRC. Since the working theory/position being pushed by many Brits seems to be "those who held the titles the most were positioned as the top stars," it seems fairly safe to say he was one of the biggest names in Brit wrestling for his run.

 

Having said I really don't know enough to vote for him.

[goc]

Is there anything online someone can point me to of someone making a case for Mr Wrestling II? I've loved pretty much everything I've seen II in, so I'd just like to read more on him.

[Dylan Waco]

I think KrisZ voted for him last year and I would love to see a stronger case presented for him by Kris if he has the time. He's one of the guys I think clearly belongs on the ballot, but I don't know that anyone has really tried to piece together an obvious case for him

[Bix]

Is there anything online someone can point me to of someone making a case for Mr Wrestling II? I've loved pretty much everything I've seen II in, so I'd just like to read more on him.

There's a post Dave made at Classics at some point where he talks about the level of a ratings draw II was at his peak...lemme see if I can find it...

[FLIK]

Looking over the list, the 10 i'd prob vote for would be

 

John Cena

Rock & Roll Express

Sting

Gran Hamada

Kensuke Sasaki

Hiroshi Tanahashi

Atlantis

L.A. Park

Dr. Wagner Jr.

Johnny Saint

 

+

 

Bill Apter & Jerry Jarrett as non wrestlers

 

June Byers i'd consider but would want to research more to be certain.

 

Moolah i'd never really considered before but learning more about how many wrestlers came out of her training camp made me re-think it since that's something that counts a lot for me. Still, hard to tell with her because for all the ppl out thear who have positive things to say about her there's a ton who bad mouth her as well and cutting through the BS to find the truth is a bit of a task.

[Dylan Waco]

What is the argument for Tanahashi going in now?

[ohtani's jacket]

Why would you vote for Breaks?

I don't think I would vote for Breaks or anyone from Europe for a variety of reasons.

 

But I am high on Breaks. When I was watching a lot of WoS he consistently stood out as one of the better/unique guys there, who was excellent at building heat. Not only do I think he was a great worker, but he seemed to consistently have a title from 62/63 forward. When I was looking through title histories last year he had a good bit more than Saint IIRC. Since the working theory/position being pushed by many Brits seems to be "those who held the titles the most were positioned as the top stars," it seems fairly safe to say he was one of the biggest names in Brit wrestling for his run.

 

Having said I really don't know enough to vote for him.

 

Trouble is George Kidd was the undisputed and undefeated World champion from 1950 to 1976 and when he retired it was Saint whom they pushed as his successor. Kidd's candidacy is problematic from the 60s onwards, but Dave isn't handling Europe properly. Logan, Masambula, Pallo, McManus and Kellett were the guys who carried the industry during Breaks' prime.

[FLIK]

What is the argument for Tanahashi going in now?

Great in ring work, 6 time IWGP champ & ace of the company for the last 6 or 7 years. Biggest draw they've had over that time span & was the guy on top & leading the company when they had to dig themselves out of the hole Inoki created in the early to mid 2000's. While NJPW isn't doing as great as they were in their hey day they're doing better then they have in a while. Kind of the Japanese equivilant of Cena actually.

[kjh]

Pedro Morales- Major draw at Madison Square Gardens and a long-term component of WWE. Like Cena, if he wasn't always compared to Bruno people would have a higher opinion on him. And honestly a lot of people don't stack up well as a draw against Bruno.

Pedro's run on top of the WWWF was only three years from 1971-1973. From March 1975 to April 1980 he was gone from the promotion. He had another three year run where he was a key guy, but would rank behind Backlund, Andre, Bruno and Patterson (until the latter two retired) on the babyface side. His last run in the WWF during the expansion years he was stuck in the mid card.

 

I'm not saying Pedro shouldn't go in, but I don't think his WWWF/WWF runs are enough on their own. However, from what I know, for a guy who was a top star from the mid 60s to the mid 80s, his drawing record is a lot patchier than his contemporaries already in the Hall Of Fame or on the ballot.