WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[KrisZ]

The future is going to be interesting when guys that were the big stars of the indies starting 10 years ago are up.

[FLIK]

Christopher Daniels has been elligable for years but no one's clamouring for him to go on the ballot.

 

Samoa Joe had a hot streak of being one of the best wrestlers in the world for about 4-5 years, the rest of his career he did nothing of note before then and has been mediocure ever since.

 

Austin Aries? No Way. Homicide? No Way. Mike Quackenbush? Maybe if Chikara somehow became a million $ company otherwise no way.

 

I really can't think of who any viable indy guys would even be.

 

If Danielson had never gone to WWE i'd still think he'd atleast have a shot based on just his indy work but that's it.

[Loss]

The indy boom happening is really impressive when you look back on it. Danielson, Ki, Joe, Punk, Homicide, Super Dragon, etc. were able to make names for themselves and be in demand enough to get pretty regular bookings, even with little or no television exposure. Whether that's a HOF case or not I'm not sure. But I would listen to someone willing to make the argument.

[Dylan Waco]

The indy boom happening is really impressive when you look back on it. Danielson, Ki, Joe, Punk, Homicide, Super Dragon, etc. were able to make names for themselves and be in demand enough to get pretty regular bookings, even with little or no television exposure. Whether that's a HOF case or not I'm not sure. But I would listen to someone willing to make the argument.

Really? We get upset about Kurt Angle and Ultimo getting in and "we aren't sure" about Super Dragon.....?

 

If one wants to point to indy runs as being clear positives and even "the bulk" of a candidacy of a guy who will be pushed on pure work like Danielson I don't think it's out there. I agree that the indy boom was impressive, but it's not something I can see being argued as the primary support for an HoF candidacy.

 

Of the guys on that list Danielson and Punk will get in (I agree with John), but I'm not sure either guy gets in if they don't end up as main eventers in the WWE. By the time they get onto the ballot they won't even be thought of as "indy guys" in any meaningful sense, even if you could argue they were the two most important people in U.S. indy wrestling during it's highest point.

 

Cide, Ki and Joe are busts to varying degrees. Joe might be able to redeem himself if a miracle occurs and TNA catches fire, because he does have a three or four year stretch where he was thought of as one of the two or three best guys on Earth and he did headline the two biggest drawing TNA ppvs of all time for whatever that is worth, but he'd have to put in a massive amount of work to get to HoF level. Ki and Cide don't have his positives and their negatives are probably worse.

 

I'm not sure Super Dragon is even one of the best five hundred candidates not on the ballot. I doubt it to be honest.

 

In any event Punk and Danielson will get in, but how much of it will be for the indy runs at the end of the day? Cide, Ki, Joe and Dragon won't get in and frankly none are even close to being as good a candidate as Tito Santana - and he's someone I wouldn't even consider seriously.

[NintendoLogic]

Dave fed up with the idiots on the board:

 

The new Hall of Fame criteria:

 

I saw him on TV when I was a kid. He was pushed by the promoter.

 

All new balloters. Nobody over the age of 18 when the candidate was in his prime can vote. Nobody in the industry can vote. Absolutely nobody who ever wrestled the candidate can vote because they will unfairly mark down guys and perceive them to have been terrible in the ring, when really they were all jealous of them. The ballot consists of 200 people each year and you have the option to vote for 100 of them. Anyone with more than 10% of the votes gets in.

[cm funk]

Which goes back to the point that Dave has put people on the ballot WAY too early. We shouldn't be talking about CM Punk's Hall of Fame chances for another 10 years, minimum.

He absolutely has. The 35/10 yrs in the biz or whatever it is needs to be changed.

 

Wrestling is different than other HOFs because few stay retired, and many keep steadily working past their "peak" years. But a HOF which inducts active, in their relative prime workers is doing something wrong.

 

Kurt Angle, HHH, Cena.....all inducted too early. Heck, I would have voted for Benoit and Jericho when they were on the ballot, but it was too early for them to be on in the first place

 

The whole WON HOF process is screwed up at this point, which is partly why there is this push/debate about active workers getting in

 

I think you could make a strong case for Daniel Bryan and Punk based on the strong presence on the indy scene, great work, and WWE success, if their careers continue on the same course, but it's way too early for that. They're in their mid-30's!! They could both have another 5-10 years to build their resumes.

 

I personally think there's a major disconnect going on between what the WON HOF was meant to be and what wrestling has become, and Meltzer isn't really helping things

[Al]

The Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame is (I believe) 25 years into a career. I don't think that is an unreasonable alternative. The only problem is that it would cause a gap in time between guys who were inducted early and guys who would have to wait. Maybe that would be helped by focusing on '60s-80s stars who were overlooked.

[FLIK]

He absolutely has. The 35/10 yrs in the biz or whatever it is needs to be changed.

 

Wrestling is different than other HOFs because few stay retired, and many keep steadily working past their "peak" years. But a HOF which inducts active, in their relative prime workers is doing something wrong.

It's 35 years old with 10 years experience or under 35 years old with 15 years experience.

 

That's plenty of time to have a HoF lvl career. The entirety of Steve Austin's career was only 14 years, The Rock was only around as an active wrestler 7-8 years. If John Cena never wrestles another day in his life is he NOT a worthy of being inducted in?

 

I just don't think that if the only reason you can come up with not to vote for a guy is that he's too young then that's not a very good reason.

 

Kurt Angle, HHH, Cena.....all inducted too early.

Also think this has a LOT more to do with ppl just being pissed at who's getting in then it does with not liking the criteria because active guys have been going in since the HoF started & I don't recall this same amount of backlash over guys like Misawa, Kawada, Great Muta, Liger, Hashimoto, Savage, Hogan, Flair, etc... who were all still competing regularly at the time they were inducted and got put in as soon as they were elligable for it.

[KrisZ]

If it was up to me the age would be 45 or even 50.

[S.L.L.]

The indy boom happening is really impressive when you look back on it. Danielson, Ki, Joe, Punk, Homicide, Super Dragon, etc. were able to make names for themselves and be in demand enough to get pretty regular bookings, even with little or no television exposure. Whether that's a HOF case or not I'm not sure. But I would listen to someone willing to make the argument.

Really? We get upset about Kurt Angle and Ultimo getting in and "we aren't sure" about Super Dragon.....?

 

If one wants to point to indy runs as being clear positives and even "the bulk" of a candidacy of a guy who will be pushed on pure work like Danielson I don't think it's out there. I agree that the indy boom was impressive, but it's not something I can see being argued as the primary support for an HoF candidacy.

 

I shouldn't put words in Loss' mouth, but I don't think he was arguing all those guys might have a case as much as he was arguing that creating the situation where what they did was possible - which Low Ki was probably the main guy responsible for - might make you a case.

 

I don't want to spend a lot of time arguing it, because I don't feel strongly about it, and no matter how I slice it, I can't see Ki as someone who should or will get into the HOF. But if Punk goes in, and Danielson goes in, and hypothetically a number of other indy guys manage to climb up the ranks and go in...I think the guy who kicked things off for them probably deserves as much consideration for the Hall as Sabu. Which is to say, a little. Not much, certainly not enough to merit induction, but I think it would be reasonable to mention him if - if - the indy boom proves to have wider reaching consequences than it currently does.

[Loss]

The indy boom happening is really impressive when you look back on it. Danielson, Ki, Joe, Punk, Homicide, Super Dragon, etc. were able to make names for themselves and be in demand enough to get pretty regular bookings, even with little or no television exposure. Whether that's a HOF case or not I'm not sure. But I would listen to someone willing to make the argument.

Really? We get upset about Kurt Angle and Ultimo getting in and "we aren't sure" about Super Dragon.....?

 

If one wants to point to indy runs as being clear positives and even "the bulk" of a candidacy of a guy who will be pushed on pure work like Danielson I don't think it's out there. I agree that the indy boom was impressive, but it's not something I can see being argued as the primary support for an HoF candidacy.

 

I shouldn't put words in Loss' mouth, but I don't think he was arguing all those guys might have a case as much as he was arguing that creating the situation where what they did was possible - which Low Ki was probably the main guy responsible for - might make you a case.

 

I don't want to spend a lot of time arguing it, because I don't feel strongly about it, and no matter how I slice it, I can't see Ki as someone who should or will get into the HOF. But if Punk goes in, and Danielson goes in, and hypothetically a number of other indy guys manage to climb up the ranks and go in...I think the guy who kicked things off for them probably deserves as much consideration for the Hall as Sabu. Which is to say, a little. Not much, certainly not enough to merit induction, but I think it would be reasonable to mention him if - if - the indy boom proves to have wider reaching consequences than it currently does.

 

This is correct, and absolutely what I meant. And like S.L.L., it's not a point I feel strongly enough to really have a debate over it. I'm just saying I would listen to someone making the point, and that it's not the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. No way are any of them except Punk and Bryan anything resembling HOF candidates, even if there is something impressive about what they did.

 

We will start hearing a case for Gabe Sapolsky to go in at some point. The floodgates of potential HOF candidates opened when the bar was lowered for inductees. I only see that trend continuing.

[Dylan Waco]

The bar was lowered for Michaels in 03. In many ways 04 was actually the low point as you had Ultimo, Angle and Sakuraba go in in the same year, all of whom are controversial picks for different reasons. There have been several picks I disagree with since then, some of who I don't really understand the case for (Saito and Hase especially), but no one that even approaches the level of Low Ki or Gabe. I'm not saying we might not get to that point, but if anything Dave seems to be admitting the dearth of quality candidates for the modern era, and has opened up the ballot/overlooked historical candidate part of the ballot dramatically as a result. We could argue that may end up having some major bad sides as well. But I don't see how the floodgates are going to be opened to the point where people are going to have candidacies SOLELY built around ROH/IWA-MS/PWG careers.

[Sean Liska]

It would be interesting if some of these indy guys go in while people like Edge and Batista sit on the outside looking in, but I don't see it happening. It's hard enough for modern wrestlers to get in.

[Dylan Waco]

Edge is going to get in. Dave and Bryan are both far too supportive of his candidacy for him to stay out. Edge is a guy I would love to see Dave debate the merits of with someone who really opposes his candidacy, but I doubt that would ever happen.

[NintendoLogic]

I think you could make a strong case for Daniel Bryan and Punk based on the strong presence on the indy scene, great work, and WWE success, if their careers continue on the same course, but it's way too early for that. They're in their mid-30's!! They could both have another 5-10 years to build their resumes.

Again, if you don't think Punk or Danielson have done enough yet to merit induction, don't vote for them. I don't see the issue.

[jdw]

Ki won't go in, or even come remotely close to going in, unless he has a major indy / TNA / WWE run left in his holster. That's seems unlikely given Ki being Ki.

 

I don't see Ki getting more votes than Joe... ever. Joe has the far more idealized / myth making indy resume. We could argue over what was the high point of indy cred in the past decade: Joe's run with the ROH belt or Danielson's. I tend to think that *voters* over the next 10 years will see it more as Joe's since it was first and there is that Kobashi match. Danielson *is* a positive on why he'll go in, much like his run in the WWE, but I keep pointing to this as the reason Bryan was always a lock:

 

Most Outstanding

2006 Bryan Danielson

2007 Bryan Danielson

2008 Bryan Danielson

2009 Bryan Danielson

2010 Daniel Bryan

 

No one has ever done that. No one who has come remotely close to doing that (Flair, Liger, Angle) is on the outside of the HOF. In fact, even the people who've done it twice (Kobashi, Misawa, Benoit) are in. The first *five-time* winner of the award certainly wasn't going to be the first person with 2+ awards to fail to go in.

 

FWIW, Joe won the award once and that's another thing that over time will be a positive for him that Ki doesn't have.

 

Punk will go in because the whole of his career is something that will appeal to voters long term. Perhaps not instantly, by as more of his peers and fans get ballots while older wrestlers and voters either die off or wander away from voting.

 

Danielson and Punk are long term locks, and quite possible won't take a heck of a lot of time to go in.

 

When looking at other indy guys, I'd suggest people look at Joe as a line, though not in a sense of the Murdoch line. More in the sense that if we're looking at an indy guy, if he has a better case than Joe, he's got a chance to go in. If he has a lesser case than Joe, don't even think about him going in until Joe gets in. By "case" I don't mean what we might consider our personal standards, but in terms of how the mass over voters view him. We may not like Edge, but we'd be hitting the bong if we don't admit that he's at about a 98% likelihood of eventually going in. Joe has a stronger case to those voters than most indy workers.

 

John

[kjh]

Edge was hurt a bit this year with John Cena being on the ballot, after a big retirement bump in 2011:

 

2009 Edge 44 22%

2010 Edge 32 18%

2011 Edge 105 46%

2012 Edge 95 37%

 

The likely course is to crack the 50% threshold next year and once he gets close, he'll probably go in the year after.

[cm funk]

Kurt Angle, HHH, Cena.....all inducted too early.

Also think this has a LOT more to do with ppl just being pissed at who's getting in then it does with not liking the criteria because active guys have been going in since the HoF started & I don't recall this same amount of backlash over guys like Misawa, Kawada, Great Muta, Liger, Hashimoto, Savage, Hogan, Flair, etc... who were all still competing regularly at the time they were inducted and got put in as soon as they were elligable for it.

 

Nah, not in my case anyway. I think those 3 all belong in. I just think they were on the ballot earlier than they should be. I can't speak to the Japanese guys because I only have a cursory knowledge of puro, I don't know what year/age any of them hit the ballot, if they got in on first vote etc, but I don't doubt any of their candidacies.

 

The HOF and wrestling as a whole is a lot different than when Savage, Hogan and Flair were inducted. It needs to change with the times.

 

Also, I like Lo Ki, but if he even gets on the ballot it will sum up what a joke this HOF is becoming.

[cm funk]

There's nothing wrong with nobody getting in for several years. It's better than lowering the bar. But then Dave couldn't pimp his HOF issue and his bios that he never gets around to writing anymore.

[Chess Knight]

I can't help but think this "who can go in NOW!?" thinking wouldn't exist if six thousand people weren't inducted the first year. I won't pretend to know more than I do (which is practically nothing), nor will I argue candidacy for or against anybody, but there seems to be a lot of wrestlers getting on the ballot who people think are a stretch. I don't know if having only ten go in in 96 would have saved the HOF of a divisive inductee like Angle or Ultimo, but they probably would have been considered much later, right?

[Al]

Honestly, I think every Hall of Fame has that watershed moment of someone completely undeserving or divisive going in. The MLB Hall of Fame inducted only five in its first election. Ten years later, they inducted Tinker/Evers/Chance en masse.

[FLIK]

Kurt Angle, HHH, Cena.....all inducted too early.

Also think this has a LOT more to do with ppl just being pissed at who's getting in then it does with not liking the criteria because active guys have been going in since the HoF started & I don't recall this same amount of backlash over guys like Misawa, Kawada, Great Muta, Liger, Hashimoto, Savage, Hogan, Flair, etc... who were all still competing regularly at the time they were inducted and got put in as soon as they were elligable for it.

 

Nah, not in my case anyway. I think those 3 all belong in. I just think they were on the ballot earlier than they should be. I can't speak to the Japanese guys because I only have a cursory knowledge of puro, I don't know what year/age any of them hit the ballot, if they got in on first vote etc, but I don't doubt any of their candidacies. The HOF and wrestling as a whole is a lot different than when Savage, Hogan and Flair were inducted. It needs to change with the times.

All the Japanese guys I named all got in the 1st year they reached the 15 year mark to become elligable. Liger & Muta are still wrestling today 12-13 years later, Misawa & Hash would probably still be wrestling too had they not passed away. Kawada is unofficially retired but was still active up until a couple years ago.

 

Hogan got in in the 1st class of 96 at which point he was only a few months into the NWO angle which was arguably the 2nd biggest run of his entire career. Savage & Flair had big runs post 96 too.

 

Also, I like Lo Ki, but if he even gets on the ballot it will sum up what a joke this HOF is becoming.

Which again goes back to my point. When ppl were being voted in that are universally considered strong, no brainer candidates not many ppl were complaining about the criteria. Now that others who are more diviseve candidates that some may not like as much are being voted in or atleast being put on the ballot under the exact same criteria ppl want to change the rules.

 

I can't help but think this "who can go in NOW!?" thinking wouldn't exist if six thousand people weren't inducted the first year.

The US wrestling sceen collapsing in the the early 2000's and Japan pretty much universally screwing up the entire post 90's generation of guys who were supposed to take over from the 90's stars screwed things up for a while as far as making new stars went but there will always be guys who emerge from the ashes as strong candidates so i'm not too worried about there being a lack of quality new inducties in the future.

[Cox]

Nobody is saying wait until retirement to put guys into the HOF, since lord knows nobody actually retires in pro wrestling. But I don't think there is anything wrong with waiting until a wrestler's prime is over before considering them for the ballot. Punk's run as a main eventer really started about a year ago, and he will be on the ballot in two. Is there any good reason why we should be debating his HOF merits when he will still be very much early into the period which will make or break his resume as a candidate? Most baseball players don't hit the HOF ballot until they are well into their 40s, and well past their prime, where it is easier to evaluate their careers. No reason this shouldn't be done the same way for a wrestling Hall of Fame.

[cm funk]

Which again goes back to my point. When ppl were being voted in that are universally considered strong, no brainer candidates not many ppl were complaining about the criteria. Now that others who are more diviseve candidates that some may not like as much are being voted in or atleast being put on the ballot under the exact same criteria ppl want to change the rules.

I agree that there are no brainer candidates who can go in at any time, but setting the bar low enough to elect them when they're still very much active lowers the bar for all candidates

 

You said Hogan got in before his nWo run. And he absolutely deserved to. He began wrestling in the mid 70's, and was the biggest wrestling star the world had ever seen in the 80's. Hogan is a bad example. Flair is a bad example. Savage is a bad example.

 

Are we comparing any current wrestler to those 3? If someone has as strong a case as them while meeting the current criteria, by all means put them in. Shit, Cena is the closest thing to it, and he's totally deserving of the induction IMO.

 

You can't change the past, but you can change the future. I just wish Dave would start to revise the criteria. The emphasis on historical candidates and foreign candidates has been a start, but they really seem to be running into a brick wall re: modern candidates v. 70s/80's guys who are "overlooked". They're reaching a point soon where they'll argue themselves into voting unworthy candidates in just for the sake of inducting people.

 

Just my opinion, but I've advocated for years that both Sabu and Sting belong in, and really, they do, based on what currently gets people voted in. And if half the people I expect to see on the ballot soon get support, and Dick Murdoch and the Rock N Roll Express (who I don't even like much) and JIMMY HART can't get votes, well, that's just fucked up

[Dylan Waco]

Jimmy Hart will get votes. He has never even been on the ballot before.

 

Make the case for Sabu and Sting