WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[jdw]

I don't think it is fair to say that Jesse was just along for the ride. Would you admit that SNME would have been far less entertaining if it was someone else standing there with Vince?

I didn't say Jesse was along for the ride. Kamala was along for the ride: he got to main event against Hogan right after the Orndorff feud and right before the Andre match where Hogan was arguably at his Apex. I'm not saying *any* wrestler could have done the massive business that Kamala did against Hogan at that very moment. But there are a number of people that Hogan main evented against from 1984-1990 who, if put in a time machine and given a similar push and angle as they did at another time, could have drawn every bit as well as Kamala if not better. Hogan along with Vince & the WWF were the machine drawing in that feud far more than Kamala.

 

Kamala = Along for the Ride

Orndorff = Much less Along for the Ride

 

I think Orndorff warrants some credit for his feud with Hogan drawing. Not as much as Hogan, and probably not as much as Vince & The WWF. But... Orndorff was pretty much the perfect wrestler/worker for that angle to get nailed as well as it did. The lion's share to Hogan, Vince & The WWF... but that feud is a major positive upon Orndorff's candidacy.

 

Jesse clearly wasn't along for the ride. He played a role in the era. But when you talk about SNME, who was the *real* people involved in the creative and production of the show? Vince... who else helped book it and write it... who produced it (i.e. the real producer not Ebersol or Vince) and who directed it.

 

Kerwin Silfies was the long time director for the WWF, going back even before SNME... and did all of the SNME, and the PPVs and all the syndication shows and Raw when it launched. He did it before Jesse got on the air, and after Jesse left. Perhaps he's a good one to nominate?

 

Again, I think the true production side of the WWF/WWE is an unexplored part of the discussion. Given the choice between Silfies + Dunn + Dunn's predecessor/boss in the 80s and Jesse, I'm far more likely to vote for the production folks than Jesse.

 

 

I'd argue it was at least 70% presentation to 30% wrestling. And Jesse was a significant part of that presentation. Fact is, he was a unique figure in wrestling -- you couldn't manufacture his brand of intelligence and charisma. You couldn't write his lines. You couldn't replace him. He, like Heenan and a handful of others from this generation, was a "true one off".

Jesse was part of that presentation.

 

But so was Hogan's body & size.

 

And Hogan's mic spots.

 

And Hogan's posing routine.

 

And Hogan making appearances on TV shows.

 

And the angles they booked for Hogan (like not returning Orndorff's call).

 

Then there were the folks shooting and direction and editing that stuff together.

 

Then there was Bobby & Gorilla on Challenge... and over on Primetime... and doing house shows. And of course Vince and Gorilla next to Jesse in the booth.

 

So how much of that Presentation = 70% is actually Jesse?

 

1%? 2%?

 

John

[Jingus]

How are we seriously supposed to quantify any of this? There are no hard numbers for this sort of thing, outside of the not-always-helpful lists of live attendance and TV ratings/PPV buyrates. Demanding a percentage of influence is a rhetorical question at best, because there's no possible answer.

 

Jerry already made a great case for Jesse on a quality level. But there's more than that. He had tremendous influence in the business as well. He popularized the entire "heel color guy who makes excuses for the villains, and berates the babyface play-by-play man" announcing model which has dominated the industry ever since then. Yeah, Piper and Hayes et al did it earlier/at the same time/arguably better/whatever, but they certainly didn't do it on anything close to as BIG a stage as Ventura did. The first six Wrestlemanias, all the early SNMEs, and so on. Hell, he was arguably their most prominent announcer, considering that the company never quite made up their mind about whether Vince or Gorilla was the main anchor in the booth. He defined what a color commentator is supposed to be like in the viewpoint of the modern fan. That's not a small deal.

 

Also, wasn't he the first guy to get an agent and a manager and a lawyer and let them handle all his business negotiations? That's not a small deal either, it represented the beginning of the modern contractual era and the end of "the promoter hands the wrestlers an envelope containing however much money he feels like giving them" way of doing things.

 

Finally, iirc, Dave's HoF also counts mainstream fame as a quality to be considered. (I asked for a list of his official qualifications for induction earlier, but nobody responded.) Hard to think of many workers more famous in this country than The Body. Governor, movie star, reality TV host, radio talk show host, author, political pundit, conspiracy theory nut... he's done it all.

[Matt D]

I think everyone's underestimating the sheer amount of hours Finkel put in backstage in the 80s too.

 

John

 

I remember when the true history of Wrestlemania DVD came out and we were all talking about Basil Devito as a guy we didn't really give much thought to before that.

 

Honestly, I bet if someone asked Finkel about who did what on twitter they might get some answers.

[NintendoLogic]

Going back to Finkel, I view his HOF case as analogous to Ray Guy's case for the Pro Football HOF. On that note, I recently came across this article concerning Guy's candidacy:

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=5415

 

I'll go ahead and pull a couple of quotes that I think are particularly relevant to this discussion:

 

I happen to fall in the camp that considers the Hall of Fame should be able to accurately portray the history of the game. For almost fifty years now, the punter has been a unique and specific position in the game, and I'm not sure you can accurately portray it without reference to place kickers and punters.

The best response for the pro-Guy camp is that it is the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Value. While they are sometimes parallel, that is not always true. Punting is a part of the game of football, and being the most famous punter (to the point of having the college award named after you) may lead to being more famous than being the 40th best outside linebacker, even if we could show that the linebacker who was the 40th best of all-time was more valuable for a team over the course of a career.

Of course, you also have guys like Dr. Z and Peter King who argue that Guy actually wasn't that good, which I guess ties into the Jesse discussion.

[jdw]

How are we seriously supposed to quantify any of this? There are no hard numbers for this sort of thing, outside of the not-always-helpful lists of live attendance and TV ratings/PPV buyrates. Demanding a percentage of influence is a rhetorical question at best, because there's no possible answer. .

I'm not "demanding" a %. What I'm pointing to is that "Jesse had a Big Impact" is a really vague comment that one needs to step back and ponder "just how much"?

 

We all agree that Hogan & Vince deserve the most credit for what happened to the WWF: taking over nearly all of the country. Now we're trying to give credit down the food chain to Fink and Jesse. Are they the most worthy of that credit, or are there other who should get further up the line?

 

 

Jerry already made a great case for Jesse on a quality level. But there's more than that. He had tremendous influence in the business as well. He popularized the entire "heel color guy who makes excuses for the villains, and berates the babyface play-by-play man" announcing model which has dominated the industry ever since then. Yeah, Piper and Hayes et al did it earlier/at the same time/arguably better/whatever, but they certainly didn't do it on anything close to as BIG a stage as Ventura did. The first six Wrestlemanias, all the early SNMEs, and so on. Hell, he was arguably their most prominent announcer, considering that the company never quite made up their mind about whether Vince or Gorilla was the main anchor in the booth. He defined what a color commentator is supposed to be like in the viewpoint of the modern fan. That's not a small deal.

We all know that, and Jerry's points as well. They're the same general ones that have been tossed out in support of Jesse since they got on the ballot. We know he defined a role. We also agree that some think he's great while others are less enthused about listening to him. If a voter happens to think he's the GOAT of color commentary and that color commentary is a critical thing in pro wrestling, then go ahead and vote for him.

 

On the other hand, Sable for the HOF? Sunny was before her like others were before Jesse, but Sable really defined the Diva role as a key part of the WWE product for the past 15 years. Not only the WWE, but TNA ripped it off as well. Not really to belittle what Jesse did, but his current impact on the WWE vs Sable's? :/ We in 2010/12 are fondly looking back to Jesse 25 years ago... are people in 2023 going to be arguing with Dave to get Sable in the HOF?

 

 

Also, wasn't he the first guy to get an agent and a manager and a lawyer and let them handle all his business negotiations? That's not a small deal either, it represented the beginning of the modern contractual era and the end of "the promoter hands the wrestlers an envelope containing however much money he feels like giving them" way of doing things.

One suspects Hogan was infront of the line there as well. He's had business managers / attorneys forever.

 

 

Finally, iirc, Dave's HoF also counts mainstream fame as a quality to be considered. (I asked for a list of his official qualifications for induction earlier, but nobody responded.) Hard to think of many workers more famous in this country than The Body. Governor, movie star, reality TV host, radio talk show host, author, political pundit, conspiracy theory nut... he's done it all

We've talked about this in the past. It doesn't "count" mainstream fame, but it does leave it up to the voter to count it if he wants to. Dave obviously does, as he's pimped it with Jesse. I think a number of us have pointed out recently (possibly in this thread) that the mainstream fame of Jesse that folks talked up when he became Gov ended up being pretty insignificant in the long term. He's kind of bombed out in what he's done since then, other than several books that sold well.

 

John

[jdw]

Of course, you also have guys like Dr. Z and Peter King who argue that Guy actually wasn't that good, which I guess ties into the Jesse discussion.

Yeah... Dr Z was never terribly fond of Guy, and probably was the best go-to guy for 60s and 70s candidates. The net yardage would be an interesting thing to try to recreate. Sad thing is that you can't do it from the newspaper box scores, and instead would have to see if there are official ones filed with the NFL... perhaps in the Hall of Fame. Would be really interesting to see.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Look at the announers in. Jesse's run was far shorter. He is not synonomous with a name or brand the way the others are. When Jesse left there may have been a drop in quality, but it didn't feel like a different show. Compare that to Memphis without Lance or even the way the WWE comes across without Ross. There are wrestlers who drew big for periods longer than Jess's entire run as a heel commentator that are scoffed at as candidates. Even if yiu think he has a case to suggest there is no reason for him not to be in is a massive stretch

Jesse was synonymous with a major boom period for the WWF not only nationally but internationally as Jerry and Jerome and I can attest to. It's stupid to compare him with what Russell did regionally. Russell would have flopped in the WWF just like he didn't pan out in WCW. The same thing happened to Ross the first time he was in the WWF and Solie when he worked for the NWA yet no-one holds these fish out of water periods against them. Besides, they were all frontmen and the straight guy. It makes more sense to compare those guys with Monsoon. People are massively underrating how difficult it is to be a good commentator. There simply haven't been that many in the history of professional wrestling. There's also a bit of favouritism going on. Jimmy Hart sucked after leaving Memphis yet people are trying to find extra reasons for him to go in like music production.

[Loss]

Before I respond, I just wanted to say that I do appreciate Jerry's debating Jesse on the merits. Sometimes, he gets debated on his political career or his movies, so I'm glad we're at least talking about him as a commentator.

 

I didn't point to the Erik Watts bit as an example of him being good in the booth, I put it forward as one example of when he tried to bury someone. The only one I've come across.

 

It's not even funny because of Ventura, it's funny because of Tony's pathetic attempt at a save "is it woo, not boo".

 

We may have a different interpreation of what we think wrestling is about though, because one thing I think Vince changed was the idea that everything was a hard sell / shill.

 

I think by the time we get to SNME there's a "soft sell" or kind of hook.

 

You can see this much more readily in the Prime Time roundtables or the silly skits with Jimmy Hart and JYD having a water slide race.

 

"Entertainment" need not be a slippery slope, but a more general hook to keep audiences coming back. And whichever way you look at it, that model beat the old territorial hard shill model.

It has been part of a company that has been more successful, but I wouldn't argue that things like Fuji Vice were the reason the WWF was successful. The things I think the WWF did well that made them successful were:

 

* Promotion of their wrestlers as stars

* Organized, long-term booking

* Increased emphasis on production that made all other wrestling companies look minor league

* Fighting dirty in signing almost all talent with any ability to draw money during a period when they were trying to go national

 

Again, I think the WWF did those things, but had others going on too. I don't know that those other things made them successful. But it's easy to look back and think everything played a part, when I just don't think that's the case.

 

Moments that are "just there to entertain" are in fact there to keep you hooked and coming back for more.

I would argue that they didn't work and have never worked. Those moments were never the key in making the WWF the juggernaut it was. Hogan an his rivalries were important. Having major network presence was. Having a tremendous syndication package was. Having tremendous production values was.

 

The reason the Russo era was bad was NOT because it sought to entertain for entertainment's sake but because it tried to manufacture entertainment artificially and WRITE characters rather than let them develop organically. And even then the chief successes of that era -- Rock, Austin, Foley -- weren't WRITTEN but came from an organic place.

 

The slippery slope is thinking you can create a character like a Ventura, or a Rock, or a Flair, Austin, Hogan etc., from the head of a writer. You can't. That's why so much "sports entertainment" has sucked since Russo, not because it's tried to be entertaining.

I agree with that, but I would also argue that backstage skits and the 20-minute dueling promos were one of the most annoying things about the era. Things that were entertainment for entertainment's sake. Things people put up with so they could see Austin and Rock.

 

C'mon, Bobby Heenan wasn't a character? Good Ol' JR isn't a character? Lawler? Lance Russell? Kent Walton? Unless you have zero personality you're a character to some extent or another. Jesse could go off on tangents at times, but I agree with a lot of what Jerry wrote. Jesse was awesome and I don't get the disdain. How can people like that dipshit who commentated for All Japan and dislike Jesse?

Jim Ross was not a character until he joined the WWF. Lance Russell was indeed a character, but the whole purpose of his existence was to get everything else over.

 

And Rude was definitely a guy you associated with Jesse since he was the winner of the "Body Award." Other guys I immediately associate with Jesse are Hogan, Steamboat and Tito. I don't think Jesse belongs in the Hall but it's perplexing to why people don't think he's good. And what was wrong with Tony? The standard of wrestling commentary was never so high that Tony was poor.

When I think of Hogan, I don't think of Jesse Ventura. Same for Tito, Rude and ... Steamboat?? (I don't understand that one at all.) Rude was a star and Jesse liked him, but I just don't see Jesse's selling of Rude as being a key ingredient in Rude being a star.

 

I thought Jesse Ventura was funny. Bobby Heenan was obviously very funny too. I don't think humor is enough to make a guy a good announcer. I need to think the wrestling I am watching is serious, life or death business with something at stake, where winning is the most important thing in the world. Anything that isn't I struggle to enjoy unless it's in an ironic way. (This is why peak Jim Ross is untouchable.)

 

Again, did people enjoy these things? (Quoting myself)

 

Also unfunny and distracting during that time - constant "Texican" talk, discussion of Shane Douglas's politics, going on about Barry Windham's taped fist for months when it's not a storyline point the company is trying to get over and allowing side conversation like that to overtake calling the action in the ring.

[ohtani's jacket]

Jim Ross was not a character until he joined the WWF. Lance Russell was indeed a character, but the whole purpose of his existence was to get everything else over.

Which is exactly what Jesse and Vince did. There was a massive audience who were sold on WWF because of Jesse and Vince, many of whom had never seen wrestling before. A worker comes out and does a segment or match, but Jesse commentated entire shows. He was a visible and audible part of WWF's image. To me, growing up, he was on par with the other wrestling personalities.

 

When I think of Hogan, I don't think of Jesse Ventura. Same for Tito, Rude and ... Steamboat?? (I don't understand that one at all.) Rude was a star and Jesse liked him, but I just don't see Jesse's selling of Rude as being a key ingredient in Rude being a star.

You got it around the wrong way. When I think of Jesse I think of Hogan not necessarily vice versa. Hogan, Tito, Rude and Steamboat were guys that Jesse had continuous shtick about. There's probably others but I can't recall them. Jesse ragged on Steamboat all the time, which continued through to his WCW run. And he pimped Rude hard. I don't think anybody got a wrestler over more in that time frame than Jesse Ventura with Rick Rude.

 

I thought Jesse Ventura was funny. Bobby Heenan was obviously very funny too. I don't think humor is enough to make a guy a good announcer. I need to think the wrestling I am watching is serious, life or death business with something at stake, where winning is the most important thing in the world. Anything that isn't I struggle to enjoy unless it's in an ironic way. (This is why peak Jim Ross is untouchable.)

WWF wasn't that kind of wrestling or at least it gradually moved away from it. 80s WWF was very good at angles and storylines and turning people but there wasn't much payoff with the matches. Jerry already explained the dynamic Jesse brought to those matches. Do you really think peak Jim Ross could've made those matches any better than they were?

 

Again, did people enjoy these things? (Quoting myself)

 

Also unfunny and distracting during that time - constant "Texican" talk, discussion of Shane Douglas's politics, going on about Barry Windham's taped fist for months when it's not a storyline point the company is trying to get over and allowing side conversation like that to overtake calling the action in the ring.

I can't say I particularly care about any of these things, but every commentator has their annoying quirks whether it's JR's obsession with football, Walton's racist jokes or Lawler and puppies. Cornette was no different from Jesse when it came to rambling. Gorilla Monsoon had a whole laundry list of annoying quirks. Lord Alfred Hayes would mishear a question and go off on some unrelated spiel.

[Dylan Waco]

Look at the announers in. Jesse's run was far shorter. He is not synonomous with a name or brand the way the others are. When Jesse left there may have been a drop in quality, but it didn't feel like a different show. Compare that to Memphis without Lance or even the way the WWE comes across without Ross. There are wrestlers who drew big for periods longer than Jess's entire run as a heel commentator that are scoffed at as candidates. Even if yiu think he has a case to suggest there is no reason for him not to be in is a massive stretch

Jesse was synonymous with a major boom period for the WWF not only nationally but internationally as Jerry and Jerome and I can attest to. It's stupid to compare him with what Russell did regionally. Russell would have flopped in the WWF just like he didn't pan out in WCW. The same thing happened to Ross the first time he was in the WWF and Solie when he worked for the NWA yet no-one holds these fish out of water periods against them. Besides, they were all frontmen and the straight guy. It makes more sense to compare those guys with Monsoon. People are massively underrating how difficult it is to be a good commentator. There simply haven't been that many in the history of professional wrestling. There's also a bit of favouritism going on. Jimmy Hart sucked after leaving Memphis yet people are trying to find extra reasons for him to go in like music production.

 

When you think of the 80's boom period when does Jesse enter your head? First? Second? Third? Fourth? I actually agree with you guys a great deal on his quality as a color guy, but he would be well down the list of guys I think of when I think of that era. Not even sure he would enter my top ten. That may be just me personally. But there is no way in hell a guy that far down the list enters into the "synonymous category." Conversely when I think of Memphis wrestling I think of Lance Russell pretty much immediately. When I think of early era WCW I grew up on I think of Ross. I just don't see how Ventura fits into that discussion. I'm not even sure what the Jimmy Hart remark is other than really shitty trolling veiled in making a point. Hart's music production was pretty clearly at least as influential as Jesse wearing boas or saying quirky things from the booth. You don't need that to make a case for Hart though. You just need Memphis, where as I noted he drew more money than Ventura ever did in his life.

[ohtani's jacket]

When you think of the 80's boom period when does Jesse enter your head? First? Second? Third? Fourth? I actually agree with you guys a great deal on his quality as a color guy, but he would be well down the list of guys I think of when I think of that era. Not even sure he would enter my top ten. That may be just me personally. But there is no way in hell a guy that far down the list enters into the "synonymous category." Conversely when I think of Memphis wrestling I think of Lance Russell pretty much immediately. When I think of early era WCW I grew up on I think of Ross. I just don't see how Ventura fits into that discussion. I'm not even sure what the Jimmy Hart remark is other than really shitty trolling veiled in making a point. Hart's music production was pretty clearly at least as influential as Jesse wearing boas or saying quirky things from the booth. You don't need that to make a case for Hart though. You just need Memphis, where as I noted he drew more money than Ventura ever did in his life.

 

I don't know what order Jesse enters my head, but this idea that it was all Hogan and Vince and everyone else was window dressing is far too dismissive. Hell, Hogan wasn't even on TV when I became a wrestling fan. He was off hiding under a rock somewhere. You can't have much of a show with just Hogan and Vince. The WWF's success stemmed from Hogan and Vince + the product. Jesse fronted the product and played a big part in getting it over. I wouldn't say he was as synonymous with WWF as Russell was with Memphis or Ross with WCW because the WWF was bigger than those two companies. Mind you, being synonymous with a company doesn't necessarily make you good. Russell was a great commentator and Ross was an annoying prick who was worse at getting people over than Jesse if you ask me.

 

How was Hart's music production influential? Should we put Rick Derringer in the HOF? How about James Alan Johnston?

[cm funk]

As a fan who grew up on 80's WWF I think Ventura, Monsoon, Okerlund and Finkel are all slam dunk candidates. In my mind I compare every ring announcer to Fink, every interviewer to Okerlund, and every commentary team to Monsoon/Ventura or Monsoon/Heenan. They are all iconic figures to me and very important to the product and presentation. I can't imagine what the WWF would have been like without them.

 

RE: HHH in 2000......I find the Kamala comparison pretty silly. Practically everybody drew against Hogan in that time frame, and OTTH Kamala never drew against anyone else. Rock was the big draw without question, but the TV shows (which were still doing great ratings) were largely built around HHH and Stephanie, and I'd guess HHH wrestled in the majority of TV main events. HHH drew against Foley Jericho and Angle that year as well. I was in high school in 2000 and watched the shows with a pretty large group of casual fan friends, and to my memory HHH was very over as the top heel and you could take practically anybody on any given night and make them a huge babyface going against him. This is also the year that Austin was out, Foley retired, Undertaker was out half the year.....HHH was the glue to the booking.

[Dylan Waco]

When you think of the 80's boom period when does Jesse enter your head? First? Second? Third? Fourth? I actually agree with you guys a great deal on his quality as a color guy, but he would be well down the list of guys I think of when I think of that era. Not even sure he would enter my top ten. That may be just me personally. But there is no way in hell a guy that far down the list enters into the "synonymous category." Conversely when I think of Memphis wrestling I think of Lance Russell pretty much immediately. When I think of early era WCW I grew up on I think of Ross. I just don't see how Ventura fits into that discussion. I'm not even sure what the Jimmy Hart remark is other than really shitty trolling veiled in making a point. Hart's music production was pretty clearly at least as influential as Jesse wearing boas or saying quirky things from the booth. You don't need that to make a case for Hart though. You just need Memphis, where as I noted he drew more money than Ventura ever did in his life.

 

I don't know what order Jesse enters my head, but this idea that it was all Hogan and Vince and everyone else was window dressing is far too dismissive. Hell, Hogan wasn't even on TV when I became a wrestling fan. He was off hiding under a rock somewhere. You can't have much of a show with just Hogan and Vince. The WWF's success stemmed from Hogan and Vince + the product. Jesse fronted the product and played a big part in getting it over. I wouldn't say he was as synonymous with WWF as Russell was with Memphis or Ross with WCW because the WWF was bigger than those two companies. Mind you, being synonymous with a company doesn't necessarily make you good. Russell was a great commentator and Ross was an annoying prick who was worse at getting people over than Jesse if you ask me.

 

How was Hart's music production influential? Should we put Rick Derringer in the HOF? How about James Alan Johnston?

 

 

I didn't say being synonymous made you good. I said that is one thing the others have that Jesse in my mind does not have. I disagree that it was just Hogan and Vince and I'm not beating the drum for that argument, just as I'm not beating the drum for Hart as an HoFer due to his music despite your deliberate attempts to deflate my argument for Hart to that level.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not trying to deflate the argument for Hart. I simply think there's an element of favouritism where people try to draw as many positives as they can for the candidates they like.

[Dylan Waco]

In this thread I have made favorable arguments for the Ultimate Warrior that were promptly refuted. Just Saying

[tomk]

How much credit does Dr Zahorian get for his importance on overall presentation?

[Loss]

Jim Ross was not a character until he joined the WWF. Lance Russell was indeed a character, but the whole purpose of his existence was to get everything else over.

Which is exactly what Jesse and Vince did. There was a massive audience who were sold on WWF because of Jesse and Vince, many of whom had never seen wrestling before. A worker comes out and does a segment or match, but Jesse commentated entire shows. He was a visible and audible part of WWF's image. To me, growing up, he was on par with the other wrestling personalities.

Who exactly was sold on the WWF "because of Jesse and Vince"?

 

You got it around the wrong way. When I think of Jesse I think of Hogan not necessarily vice versa. Hogan, Tito, Rude and Steamboat were guys that Jesse had continuous shtick about. There's probably others but I can't recall them. Jesse ragged on Steamboat all the time, which continued through to his WCW run. And he pimped Rude hard. I don't think anybody got a wrestler over more in that time frame than Jesse Ventura with Rick Rude.

Thinking of Jesse first then the wrestler is a key distinction and part of my point.

 

WWF wasn't that kind of wrestling or at least it gradually moved away from it. 80s WWF was very good at angles and storylines and turning people but there wasn't much payoff with the matches. Jerry already explained the dynamic Jesse brought to those matches. Do you really think peak Jim Ross could've made those matches any better than they were?

Sure it wasn't that kind of wrestling. It's why I'm not generally a fan of very many aspects of it. And yes, I do think Jim Ross would have done a better job of selling those matches and making them seem better.

 

I can't say I particularly care about any of these things, but every commentator has their annoying quirks whether it's JR's obsession with football, Walton's racist jokes or Lawler and puppies. Cornette was no different from Jesse when it came to rambling. Gorilla Monsoon had a whole laundry list of annoying quirks. Lord Alfred Hayes would mishear a question and go off on some unrelated spiel.

Jim Ross's football obsession served a purpose in getting over the wrestlers as athletes. Not something I'd compare to Texican-type stuff. Also not sure when Cornette really rambled as a color guy. He's the example I should have used over Hayes even, as late '89-early '90 Cornette in that role was great.

[Dylan Waco]

Tito Santana

 

Underrated in ring talent, but he was never a draw and was never even really positioned to be a draw. I'm not even sure what his farthest position up the card was. I would guess the Valentine feud but I may be forgetting something. Either way he's not a good enough worker to make up that gap.

 

Jun Akiyama

 

I believe he's been on at least once and fallen off. Ultimately I think he'll go back on and I think there is a chance he will go in, but I don't think I could vote for him. Jun was a real favorite of mine and I tend to like him more as a worker than most. But he really is the ultimate "failed project" and that is something that will always hang over his head.

 

Ron Garvin

 

I love Garvin but I see no case at all. Really good worker during his peak, but his main event run was a blip. Not sure how much he did in other territories to fill in the gaps but I don't get the feeling that it's near enough to merit a spot on the WON ballot.

 

Octagon

 

Don't know enough. On the surface seems like a stretch.

 

Hiroyoshi Tenzan

 

To me he sort of comes across like a shittier NJPW version of Akiyama but my perspective may be skewed. I don't see him as a serious candidate in any respect.

 

Shinjiro Otani

 

Interesting guy to think about only because at his absolute peak he was wildly praised and a consensus type guy with everyone talking him up as a brilliant worker. There are still people who think he was the best worker in the World in 96 which was a very competitive year to contend for that mantle. The problem Ohtani has is that he was not a real innovator and his run as a great worker was very short. I'm not sure it was even three years long to be honest. And that is not enough. Otani is a fun "what if" guy though.

 

Rayo de Jalisco Jr.

 

I'm largely ignorant about Lucha other than the guys who I think are really good workers.

 

Animal Hamaguchi

 

I know he was at least a role playing type star over the years but I don't think he was ever the real top guy anywhere. John can feel free to help me here.

 

Yoshiaki Yatsu

 

Yatsu is interesting in general in that he was a really great worker in his prime, great tag worker and was a part of some hot feuds and promotional runs. The problem is I'm not sure he was ever close enough to the top. Not sure his post-AJPW really helps though I know some think his post-AJPW work was good. I am tempted to say "put him on the ballot" because I just like Yatsu and would like to see him on the ballot But I can't say that I would vote for him and I'm not sure all that much could be learned.

 

Umanosuke Ueda

 

I know his look was kind of fresh for Japan and he was at least a nominally important figure because of that. He also has that great spot from the elimination tag in 86. That's not much to build a candidacy on. Was Ueda ever a serious draw?

 

Mascara Ano 2000

 

No idea.

 

Kuniaki Kobayashi

 

I like him as a worker a good deal, but as first wave juniors go he was not as influential as others and did not make as much of an impact down the road either. I'm not even sure he's as good a candidate as Psicosis to take an example from a different era.

[EricR]

4 pages late, but there was NO player on the MLB HOF ballot this year that is worse than Tony Womack, let alone many horrible ballplayers, which would make Womack "far from the *worst* player on the ballot." Terry Mulholland? Nowhere close to as lame as Womack.

 

Name THREE players from the last TWENTY YEARS of the Ballot that are worse than Womack. It's not possible. I'll even spot you Dodger superstar Lenny Harris. Womack is clearly one of the worst, if not the worse guy to show up on a HOF ballot.

 

Shoot, explain to me how Tony Womack would deserve someone's vote over Neifi Perez?

 

However, Bobby Womack - who you mentioned - is fucking awesome.

[ohtani's jacket]

Who exactly was sold on the WWF "because of Jesse and Vince"?

Me and others like me. If you've never seen wrestling before and you don't know who any of the wrestlers are, what the storylines or angles are, or even the internal logic behind the whole thing, you tend to pay attention to the commentators. Vince and Jesse were extremely good at this, because like all good wrestling commentary they were the moral compass of what was going on. When you go back and watch that era, the matches aren't good but the commentating of Jesse and Vince holds up. Later on, when Vince went through his whole "whatta maneuver/Shawn Michaels" phase, do you really think Lawler was as good a foil as Jesse? Early Monday Night Raw with Vince, Macho Man and Bartlett was atrocious and even when they brought in Bobby it wasn't much better. I can't think of anyone who was a better fit with Vince than Jesse. What's more, there was so much terrible commentating in the the WWF in the 80s and 90s before and after Jesse that I can't understand why anyone would think there was anyone better.

 

Thinking of Jesse first then the wrestler is a key distinction and part of my point.

Well, he's not as inextricably linked with wrestlers as Russell with Lawler or Ross with Flair and Austin or even McMahon with Michaels, but they were all play-by-play men. Still, I would argue that Jesse was associated with certain wrestlers in a memorable way the same way that Bobby Heenan was associated with Ric Flair or Stu and Helen Hart.

 

Sure it wasn't that kind of wrestling. It's why I'm not generally a fan of very many aspects of it. And yes, I do think Jim Ross would have done a better job of selling those matches and making them seem better.

He wasn't particularly good at in WWF until '98. With the better workers he probably would've done a good job, but not with the sillier gimmicks. I don't think it was a particular strength of Ross' getting over shitty gimmicks.

 

Jim Ross's football obsession served a purpose in getting over the wrestlers as athletes. Not something I'd compare to Texican-type stuff. Also not sure when Cornette really rambled as a color guy. He's the example I should have used over Hayes even, as late '89-early '90 Cornette in that role was great.

But do you enjoy Ross' football fetish? Jesse made his fair share of inappropriate remarks and was never shy of throwing in political comments, and he had a whole bag of bullshit whether it was his fake made-up Navy SEALS career or his Hollywood ties, but that was part of the package. Jim Cornette rambled all the time. Half the match he was going off on some rant. Obviously, we have different tastes, but Cornette was hardly PC on commentary and he loved an andecote or bad joke as much as Ventura. Hayes on the other hand was forgettable.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't put Jesse in the Hall. I wouldn't even have a ballot or put things to a vote. I think Meltzer should simply induct people based on his own research. But it seems Dave loves a poll and a good vote.

[JerryvonKramer]

Look at the announers in. Jesse's run was far shorter. He is not synonomous with a name or brand the way the others are. When Jesse left there may have been a drop in quality, but it didn't feel like a different show. Compare that to Memphis without Lance or even the way the WWE comes across without Ross. There are wrestlers who drew big for periods longer than Jess's entire run as a heel commentator that are scoffed at as candidates. Even if yiu think he has a case to suggest there is no reason for him not to be in is a massive stretch

Jesse was synonymous with a major boom period for the WWF not only nationally but internationally as Jerry and Jerome and I can attest to. It's stupid to compare him with what Russell did regionally. Russell would have flopped in the WWF just like he didn't pan out in WCW. The same thing happened to Ross the first time he was in the WWF and Solie when he worked for the NWA yet no-one holds these fish out of water periods against them. Besides, they were all frontmen and the straight guy. It makes more sense to compare those guys with Monsoon. People are massively underrating how difficult it is to be a good commentator. There simply haven't been that many in the history of professional wrestling. There's also a bit of favouritism going on. Jimmy Hart sucked after leaving Memphis yet people are trying to find extra reasons for him to go in like music production.

 

When you think of the 80's boom period when does Jesse enter your head? First? Second? Third? Fourth? I actually agree with you guys a great deal on his quality as a color guy, but he would be well down the list of guys I think of when I think of that era. Not even sure he would enter my top ten. That may be just me personally. But there is no way in hell a guy that far down the list enters into the "synonymous category." Conversely when I think of Memphis wrestling I think of Lance Russell pretty much immediately. When I think of early era WCW I grew up on I think of Ross. I just don't see how Ventura fits into that discussion. I'm not even sure what the Jimmy Hart remark is other than really shitty trolling veiled in making a point. Hart's music production was pretty clearly at least as influential as Jesse wearing boas or saying quirky things from the booth. You don't need that to make a case for Hart though. You just need Memphis, where as I noted he drew more money than Ventura ever did in his life.

 

I don't think "80s boom period" is the right question. If you say "80s boom period" you naturally are going to default to Hogan and maybe the image of Hogan and Andre. Hell, maybe Mr. T comes in there. Maybe the image of Flair and the Horsemen comes in there. etc.

 

But if you ask the question "think of Saturday Night's Main Event" - then Jesse is one of the first 2-3 people I'd think of. I'd think of him standing next to Vince in a ridiculous outfit ready to kick things off.

 

He was the co-presenter of the show.

 

The difference between an announcer and most workers is that they are on the air about 90% of the time. An announcer can be synonymous with a show in a way workers seldom can.

 

Jesse might not be snyonymous with "the 80s boom period" but he IS synonymous with SNME and to a lesser extent Superstars and the first Wrestlemanias.

 

What I'm hearing from Loss is basically a subscription to a different wrestling philosophy and ideology -- the idea of wrestling as a legit sport -- which Ross and Solie majored in. There's nothing wrong with that philosophy, hell I LOVE the WCW presentation under Watts in 92, but it's not the only one. WWF certainly has always had a different one. And Jesse played his role to perfection in getting over CHARACTERS and ANGLES.

 

When Ventura went to WCW in 1992 he worked with Ross for a year. When he first arrived, Jesse was still working WWF style, Ross was still basically working in his Mid-South/ UWF style. I typed out what Jesse had to say about Ross in 93/4 yesterday. I'm not saying I agree with him, but if you go back to the early 92 shows you can see a clash of ideologies between Jesse and Ross.

 

What's INTERESTING about it is that -- despite being on the big money, given a big star's welcome and billing, etc. -- it's Jesse who bends to Ross's stlye not vice versa. Clearly after the first month or so, Jesse decided that Ross wasn't going to play ball with him, so from about March onwards he just does a solid job of analysing what's going on. He plays down his schtick, he stops trying to getting any sort of rise out of Ross, he even humours him by talking about people's college backgrounds and so on with him. Go back and listen -- some of you must have recent experience of that pairing from the 92 yearbook.

 

Jesse in 92 is VERY well behaved. He talks about wrestling, name checks Edouard Carpentier and Lou Thesz, shows off his knowledge of wrestling moves. He conformed to Ross's NWA-style play-by-play -- even though, as we now know, he privately thought that Ross sucked. I think this strengthens his case further. When he was working with someone who didn't suit his own style, he was good enough as an analyst and intelligent enough as a person to make it work.

 

I'm not saying Ventura and Ross weren't an awkward pairing at times, because they were, but they were awkward whenever Ross had to react to something Jesse said not the other way around. Ross in 92, "peak Ross" as some of you call him, was good at what he did, but he was brittle and inflexible. At that point he could only do the one style and didn't know how to react to a big WWF guy like Jesse -- he'd have to learn this under Vince, which he did.

 

Then in 93, Tony Schiavone must have been like a god-send for Ventura because he now had someone he could play off. Schiavone was also brittle and awkward to begin with, and he was NEVER 100% comfortable playing McMahon to Ventura, but somehow that worked and played into one of the most interesting on-screen partnerships in WCW history.

 

I think the fact that Ventura could work with Ross and then Schiavone back-to-back and make them both work -- one in NWA-style, one in WWF-style -- is testament to his incredible strengths as a colour man.

 

I take the point that his run was relatively short -- 7 years in WWF, 2 and a half years in WCW -- but he was absolutely top notch for the entirety of that run. Which other commentators were excellent for their entire runs? I can't think of anyone who didn't have dips.

 

Jesse's "dip" is probably 92, and he was pretty fucking solid in 92, if that year is the worst of his career as a colour man, then you've got to start thinking that he had an amazing career as one.

[El-P]

Jim Ross's football obsession served a purpose in getting over the wrestlers as athletes.

No, it's annoying as hell and comes off to me as Ross being insecure over announcing wrestling and wants to talk about real sport instead. If there's a thing I can't stand about Jim Ross (apart from the bad JR screaming and overselling everything like a coked up Joey Styles), that's it. At times it gets unbearable when he gets into details of college sports. Who gives a flying fuck ? We already watch the wrestling, you don't have to make distinct effort to try ro seel those guys as college athletes, sell us their wrestling personnality.

[El-P]

How much credit does Dr Zahorian get for his importance on overall presentation?

Eh eh.

[El-P]

Who exactly was sold on the WWF "because of Jesse and Vince"?

Not speaking for anyone else, but I've said it before, as a French guy, I was sold on WWF TV because of Eddie Carpentier and Guy Hauray. It would have been WCW TV, or any other kind of wrestling, they would have sold it to me because they were that much entertaining. I remember one of the first *big* angle I saw was the break up of the Bolsheviks. Thrilling isn't it ? And I pretty much didn't like Hogan from the get go. The announcers were the key to sold me that product and make it seem great to me (although it was 80% squash matches, we didn't get PPV at first). So, I don't see why the same thing couldn't apply with Jesse and Vince for some people.

[ohtani's jacket]

That was the same for us. We only got Superstars, but we got to see the PPVs free-to-air. They were months and months behind, however. If you wanted to see them sooner you had to rent them on home video.