jdw Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Kane is fab. I love GF1 & GF2. Of course GF3 is down there with The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith and "Peter Jackson Rapes The Lord Of The Rings" as my all-time most painful movie going experiences. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 "Peter Jackson Rapes The Lord Of The Rings" Thank God I'm not the only one who considers those movies the most overrated, overhyped thing in the history of mankind. The Godfather movies are good, but I don't personally enjoy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul Kersey Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I can't imagine actually getting to see Citizen Kane or Godfather 1 or 2 for the first time. I hope you guys don't know a lot about them. I know it's prowrestlingonly, but I'd be curious to see thoughts on those if you get to them. I hate the LOTR movies too; having a lot of nerd friends, those going on or being on tv is officially a sign that a night has gone to boring hell. I can think of wrestling (& movies) I grew in & out of. Blehschmidt, it's kind of neat that you're putting some other wrestling in front of the kid. Does he think Rando is a badass or something? Sometimes I can't tell where kids today stop & "KIDS TODAY!" starts, they're pretty damn dumb in some ways but pretty sharp in others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I've never seen Citizen Kane or any of the Godfather movies either. I have, however, seen Commando more times than I can count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 That happens, there's always embarrassing lopsided gaps in everybody's entertainment consumption. I've never seen any of the Liger/Sano matches, but I damn sure have seen Rock/Hogan at least a dozen times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 With Kane, it's so easy to look past all the things that REALLY make it great and revolutionary, because they're things we take for granted now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I found the old Observer where Dave did his initial write-up of 6/3/94. Here's what he said: Mitsuharu Misawa pinned Toshiaki Kawada in 35:50. The first half of the match aired 6/4 with the second half airing on 6/11. This match didn't have a lot of fancy moves, but everything was well-timed, stiff as hell and the match had perfect psychology and in that regard it was the best match of the year. This didn't have the moves of the 5/21 tag title match or the daredevil bumps of Pegasus-Sasuke or Ramon-Michaels, but it was far more brutal than any of those matches and for heat and psychology it was even better. Misawa bled from a busted ear at 8:00. Both men countered and countered the counters of each others signature moves. Both men kicked out of the others big moves. Kawada looked as if he was going to win with a dangerous backdrop followed by two power bombs and bridges, but Misawa kicked out both times and the place went nuts. Kawada continued with stiff kicks and unprotected german suplexes and finally got the stretch plum in the middle, but Misawa made the ropes. After a second stretch plum, Kawada went for a pin but Misawa kicked out. Misawa retaliated with a forearm, a flying lariat and an unprotected german suplex. Kawada kicked out of a Tiger suplex for a huge pop, and came back with rolling koppo kicks knocking Misawa to the floor. Misawa made a comeback and destroyed Kawada with discus forearms before doing a Tiger driver, but dropping Kawada on his head, for the pin. The post-match crowd reaction for both men was as impressive as when Misawa beat Tsuruta for the first time in June, 1990. ***** And in the first Observer after Kawada won the Triple Crown from Doc, Dave said that the one live report he got called it the best match held at the Budokan that year. So 6/3/94 was highly regarded, but it wasn't some Sgt. Pepper's deal where it was called a decisive moment in the history of Western civilization right out the box. On a completely random side note, in the 1993 awards issue, Kenta Kobashi and Manami Toyota placed third and fourth, respectively, in the Best Technical Wrestler category. If that isn't proof positive that the award is completely meaningless, I don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 My write up was a week or two after it in the letters page, and as I've said several times over the years he had it in hand before he saw the match. I'm pretty sure I was closer to Sgt Peppering it than Dave was. But as I said in the first response in the thread: It's never been considered the greatest match of all time. It's always been considered the greatest match of all time. Which one it is depends on the question being asked, and to whom. *I* didn't think it was the GOAT at the time, and it's unlikely that anyone has written more about the match, discussed it more or praised it more than me in the past 18 years. So... People believe it was handed down to Moses on stone as the Word of God GOAT and never to be challenged as such are either: ( a ) don't know the history of GOATs ( b ) delusional ( c ) pretty defensive More ( c ) than anything else. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Just re-reading this and I feel I derailed things a little bit with my Kane/ Godfather analogy, and this from Matt D was cruelly no-sold at the time. But something has been irritating me for some time now. When, why and how did Shawn Michaels start being talked about in GOAT terms by "current fans"? Like at what point in his career was Shawn ever considered the best wrestler in the world? Was there ever a point? It's one of the little thing that ... wait for it ... gets my goat. Seriously though, the WWE consistently push some sort of myth of Michaels being the greatest ever. Why? How? Is it just because he's sort of always been there? There's something I'm missing here, because while I'll accept he's good, I don't even seen HBK as part of the conversation. If you are doing your all-time GOAT list are any Shawn matches in the top 10? If so, which ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 This is the wrong place to ask that. I think in the post-MNW era Michaels is the guy who has been pushed the most as having a "legend" aura that goes back into that era. He has been marketed as one of the best ever so people see him that way. Having said that I know there are fans who consider him on that level who would object to the claim that their views are wedded to the presentation of Shawn by Vince and co. I would love to have a reasonable argument/debate with those people but I'm not sure it's possible and I'm not sure any of those people are here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 What Dylan said. I agree with your point Jerry, but I think most people here see it the same way. Shawn has a lot of matches I really like and I think he was really good and even great at times, but to me, he's not anywhere close to the top wrestlers in history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 As far as matches go, HBK/Mankind from Mind Games would be just outside my personal top 10. But the WWE has pimped Shawn as the GOAT because he's the greatest wrestler under long-term contract to them who isn't going to burn his bridges. He certainly ranks very high if you limit your view to wrestlers who worked primarily in the US. Where he stands overall depends on how much you think of the wrestling traditions of other countries. Like, I don't care all that much for lucha, so I have no problem putting Shawn above someone like El Dandy. Others might see it differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Seeing someone rank Shawn above El Dandy makes me sad. If we were just restricting to U.S. wrestlers I think Shawn has a better case for being a top tier guy, but I still don't think he has much of a case, even if I were granting him the benefit of my admittedly very major doubts. Honestly not sure where Shawn would even rank for me on a list of top U.S. guys at this point. I am a huge fan of his run with the Rockers, but I think his early heel work was pretty "eh" in hindsight, and while I like a lot of 95-96 Shawn I don't think it is "all timer" level stuff the way some people do - not even close really. Post-comeback he was good for a couple of matches I liked a year, but the last few years I thought there were periods where he was actually a bad wrestler. Not Ric Flair in 03 level bad mind you, but pretty fucking bad. In some ways I think the scope and nature of Shawn's career makes him more difficulty to rate than the hyperbole that surrounds him on both sides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Late Shawn's like a magic eye. Once you figure out the problems in his matches, you can't not see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 23 years ago... it's really ancient history. John God that makes me feel old. And depressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 he's the greatest wrestler under long-term contract to them who isn't going to burn his bridges. I'd imagine it wouldn't take much, if he felt strongly enough about it, for Michaels to still burn any bridge he wants to. And good for him. The dude has totally owned up and apologized for how much of a dick he used to be. At this point, if he can fuck with Vince about appearances and make some money here and there to supplement what must be a comfortable life? More power to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 What Dylan said. I agree with your point Jerry, but I think most people here see it the same way. Shawn has a lot of matches I really like and I think he was really good and even great at times, but to me, he's not anywhere close to the top wrestlers in history. Agree with this and what Dylan said. That's pretty much it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Post-comeback he was good for a couple of matches I liked a year, but the last few years I thought there were periods where he was actually a bad wrestler. Not Ric Flair in 03 level bad mind you, but pretty fucking bad. Matt Hardy disagrees with you. Matt Hardy thinks Shawn was a much more smarter wrestler after he came back in 2002. Yep.... Well..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Has Shawn Michaels ever had a match as good as the best Dandy stuff? That's not a very fair comparison for Michaels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Has Shawn Michaels ever had a match as good as the best Dandy stuff? That's not a very fair comparison for Michaels. Absolutely not. Well not a singles match anyway. The best Rose/Somers v. Rockers tags are at least in the neighborhood as the best Dandy matches...maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 As far as matches go, HBK/Mankind from Mind Games would be just outside my personal top 10. But the WWE has pimped Shawn as the GOAT because he's the greatest wrestler under long-term contract to them who isn't going to burn his bridges. He certainly ranks very high if you limit your view to wrestlers who worked primarily in the US. Where he stands overall depends on how much you think of the wrestling traditions of other countries. Like, I don't care all that much for lucha, so I have no problem putting Shawn above someone like El Dandy. Others might see it differently. Even limiting it to the US, I'm not sure how Shawn compares to Flair, Funk, Lawler, Steamboat, Savage or Vader. Some of those guys probably don't have the strong list of good matches that Shawn has, but some have one that blows his away, and the ones that don't were far more consistent. He may compare favorably to Bret. My opinion of Bret has dropped some after watching the 1992 - 1996 yearbooks. Bret is for the most part a guy who had good big show matches and dogged it a lot of the time on small shows. There are exceptions, like the Flair Ironman, the Steiners tag and a few others, but on a PPV, Bret would be motivated to pull a good match out of Papa Shango. On Coliseum Video, he's going through the motions with him. I think the best comparisons for Shawn are guys like Rude and Hennig. Generally good careers. Pockets of being great. Not quite at the elite level for many reasons. Shawn had a longer run than they did due to the layoff, but otherwise, I think that's a good comparison. Rude has isolated performances that I think were awesome too, but he has lots of periods where he isn't doing much. I see Shawn the same way. When you open it up internationally, how does Shawn even compare to people who no one talks about as a GOAT? I'm talking about people like Muto, El Samurai, Atlantis, Akiyama, Sano, Takayama, Yamazaki, Emilio Charles, etc. Even the second and third tier guys in the US raise an interesting question, for that matter. Think Ricky Morton, Bill Dundee and Bobby Eaton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I would like to see analyses of the following for GOAT consideration: Michaels vs Flair Michaels vs Funk Michaels vs Hansen Michaels vs Lawler Michaels vs Savage Michaels vs Steamboat Michaels vs Windham Michaels vs Dundee Michaels vs Rose Michaels vs Vader Michaels vs Bockwinkel Michales vs Race Michaels vs Brisco Michaels vs Hart Michaels vs Rey Michaels vs Jumbo Michaels vs Tenryu Michaels vs Choshu Michaels vs Fujinami Michaels vs Kawada Michaels vs Misawa Michaels vs Kobashi Michaels vs Muta Michaels vs Liger Michaels vs Inoki There are 25 GOAT contenders from the US and Japan. I'm interested to see how people "score" Michaels after comparing him to each one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I don't think Morton or Dundee are third tier guys, and they might not be second tier guys. I'd probably rate both guys over Steamer and Vader and I like both men. Eaton is tougher because he was so great what he did but he has less flashes in a singles setting than Morton. Personally I would rate Shawn safely behind Hennig and probably behind Rude. I don't think Shawn's best year was nearly as good as Rude's best year and his peak run was not close to as good as Hennig's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I don't disagree with any of that. I was just trying to make the point about Shawn without side draining it into a topic about why I consider a guy with a mullet who just got beat up in tag matches and only worked backwoods Southern promotions a first-tier guy. I would put Morton and Dundee ahead of Vader and Steamboat as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I have serious conceptual problems with Flair when it comes to his grasp of how wrestling works relative to my own, and Flair's a guy with great offense who can make a 20 minute arm hold interesting, both giving it and selling it. When I have the same sort of problems with a guy like Shawn whose strengths fall even more into the ACTION category it becomes a heck of a lot trickier to rank him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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