The Historiography of the Greatest Match Of All Time

[Dylan Waco]

I would like to see analyses of the following for GOAT consideration:

 

Michaels vs Flair

Michaels vs Funk

Michaels vs Hansen

Michaels vs Lawler

Michaels vs Savage

Michaels vs Steamboat

Michaels vs Windham

Michaels vs Dundee

Michaels vs Rose

Michaels vs Vader

Michaels vs Bockwinkel

Michales vs Race

Michaels vs Brisco

Michaels vs Hart

Michaels vs Rey

 

Michaels vs Jumbo

Michaels vs Tenryu

Michaels vs Choshu

Michaels vs Fujinami

Michaels vs Kawada

Michaels vs Misawa

Michaels vs Kobashi

Michaels vs Muta

Michaels vs Liger

Michaels vs Inoki

 

There are 25 GOAT contenders from the US and Japan. I'm interested to see how people "score" Michaels after comparing him to each one.

Looking at that list and without going into detailed analysis I'm not prepared for at this moment I would rate Shawn over Inoki and Mutoh but largely because I have a low opinion of both guys at this point. Not sure there is enough Brisco out there to make a fair comparison. Everyone else is over Shawn, with none that I would even put particularly close to him

[Loss]

Owen and Shawn might be a good comparison. Owen is a more talented wrestler, while Shawn had more good matches, but maybe the mean average of the two is close.

[JerryvonKramer]

It looks like I set the bar too high. How about something more like

 

Rude

DiBiase

Hennig

Martel

Robinson

Arn Anderson

Tully

Gordy

Williams

Jericho

Hogan

Andre

Dino Bravo

 

Also, incidentally is Rude's peak year 92 in your view? What matches in 92 outside of the Steamboat match are you thinking of?

[El-P]

Owen and Shawn might be a good comparison. Owen is a more talented wrestler, while Shawn had more good matches, but maybe the mean average of the two is close.

Shawn was placed in so many more spots to have great matches than Owen ever did. Really, the best Owen stuff is better than Shawn's best stuff. Owen vs Liger comes to mind.

[Loss]

I think you'll like the Chono match from the G-1 Climax final just as much, if not more, when you get into 1992. I don't think there's anything beyond that at that level, but Rude was a consistent guy with quite a few good TV matches during '92. The syndie matches with Pillman and Dustin stand out the most in my mind, but there are others.

[Cox]

He may compare favorably to Bret. My opinion of Bret has dropped some after watching the 1992 - 1996 yearbooks. Bret is for the most part a guy who had good big show matches and dogged it a lot of the time on small shows. There are exceptions, like the Flair Ironman, the Steiners tag and a few others, but on a PPV, Bret would be motivated to pull a good match out of Papa Shango. On Coliseum Video, he's going through the motions with him.

That's been the rep on Bret I think for 20-25 years, so I'm glad that holds up on the yearbooks. Bret is a guy who will go all out for a TV or PPV match, but if the cameras are off (or if they're on for a Coliseum Video match I suppose), Bret isn't going all out, and will often visibly dog it. Then again, I think I can excuse that to a degree, because that was the mentality of 80's WWF where Bret spent most of his career - dog it on the house shows, with MSG a notable exception, turn it on four times a year for PPV.

[Frankensteiner]

I have serious conceptual problems with Flair when it comes to his grasp of how wrestling works relative to my own, and Flair's a guy with great offense who can make a 20 minute arm hold interesting, both giving it and selling it. When I have the same sort of problems with a guy like Shawn whose strengths fall even more into the ACTION category it becomes a heck of a lot trickier to rank him.

I don't think Flair's faults are at all similar to Shawn's faults. If I had to list Flair's problems I'd start with his repetitiveness, inability to build a coherent match, and tendency to get lost in the ring unless it involves his own shtick. Shawn could be pretty boring as a heel and was sometimes an inconsistent seller in his main run as a babyface. In general, I think Shawn was easily better than Flair, though I'm only evaluating Shawn on his prime years. He was garbage after his comeback.

[FLIK]

When you open it up internationally, how does Shawn even compare to people who no one talks about as a GOAT? I'm talking about people like Muto, El Samurai, Atlantis, Akiyama, Sano, Takayama, Yamazaki, Emilio Charles, etc.

 

Even the second and third tier guys in the US raise an interesting question, for that matter. Think Ricky Morton, Bill Dundee and Bobby Eaton.

I'd pretty easily have Michaels over everyone mentioned above except maybe Atlantis

[Loss]

You'd have Shawn above Kazuo Yamazaki and Jun Akiyama comfortably? I struggle with that. I struggle even more with El Samurai, but I realize I like him more than most. I also didn't mention Otani, who blows Shawn out of the water. So does Hayabusa.

 

In the Joshi world, there are probably at least a dozen people I can think of, and my viewing there is limited.

 

Naoki Sano had a quiet, great career and I'd personally put him above Michaels, but he's a guy someone needs to really tighten up the case for, so it's easier to make.

[Frankensteiner]

I don't think Morton or Dundee are third tier guys, and they might not be second tier guys. I'd probably rate both guys over Steamer and Vader and I like both men. Eaton is tougher because he was so great what he did but he has less flashes in a singles setting than Morton.

What exactly are all these flashes Morton had in singles? I recall one or two good/great matches against Tully and a couple overrated matches against Flair. Eaton had a better singles run in 1991 alone.

 

I would rate Michaels above Morton. But I prioritize guys who work 20-30min singles main events over tag workers. Morton was great at what he did, but I think it's more difficult to work great singles matches than tag matches adhering to a formula. Not to mention Michaels was a great tag worker himself.

[Dylan Waco]

What are the good singles matches Bobby had in 91? I'm not saying they don't exist but what are they? Maybe my perspective on Morton is skewed from having recently watched a bunch of SMW where he was past his prime and still a great wrestler. To be honest I think Morton laps Michaels about four or five times, but I prefer guys who don't have to rely on props/excess for their big matches and I think selling is the most important aspect of wrestling

[Dylan Waco]

It looks like I set the bar too high. How about something more like

 

Rude

DiBiase

Hennig

Martel

Robinson

Arn Anderson

Tully

Gordy

Williams

Jericho

Hogan

Andre

Dino Bravo

 

Also, incidentally is Rude's peak year 92 in your view? What matches in 92 outside of the Steamboat match are you thinking of?

 

I'd put Shawn above Jericho and Bravo. Probably Hogan. Andre is tougher because his best matches hit me in the gut in a way that Shawn's don't

[Bix]

I don't think Morton or Dundee are third tier guys, and they might not be second tier guys. I'd probably rate both guys over Steamer and Vader and I like both men. Eaton is tougher because he was so great what he did but he has less flashes in a singles setting than Morton.

What exactly are all these flashes Morton had in singles? I recall one or two good/great matches against Tully and a couple overrated matches against Flair. Eaton had a better singles run in 1991 alone.

 

I would rate Michaels above Morton. But I prioritize guys who work 20-30min singles main events over tag workers. Morton was great at what he did, but I think it's more difficult to work great singles matches than tag matches adhering to a formula. Not to mention Michaels was a great tag worker himself.

Which of the Flair matches have you seen?

 

Off the top of my head there's also the Lawler match from Louisville in '79, the Sonny King WMC studio match from '80, and various singles matches as part of tag feuds, but he was a tag team guy for most of his career, whether it was with Eddie Gilbert, Ken Lucas, Robert Gibson, Tommy Rich/Terry Taylor, or Gibson surrogates like Chris Hamrick on indy shows. And all of those teams were awesome in their own way. I suspect we'd have more singles matches if we had more '79-'81 Memphis, though (and I think there's some house show footage that's out there but not currently circulating with a bunch of Morton).

[Frankensteiner]

I've seen the Pro match and the Cage match on the Horsemen DVD. Haven't seen the Cage match from World Pro.

 

I haven't seen any of his singles from Memphis.

 

I'm not trying to knock Morton because he was great. It's just that Michaels was easily better in my view. I think there's a little less skill required in being a great worker in southern tags than there is in working long-ish singles matches.

[Frankensteiner]

It looks like I set the bar too high. How about something more like

 

Rude

DiBiase

Hennig

Martel

Robinson

Arn Anderson

Tully

Gordy

Williams

Jericho

Hogan

Andre

Dino Bravo

 

Also, incidentally is Rude's peak year 92 in your view? What matches in 92 outside of the Steamboat match are you thinking of?

Shawn is ahead of: Rude, Arn, Williams, Jericho, Hogan, Andre, and Bravo.

 

behind: Martel, Tully, Gordy, DiBiase.

 

Can't comment on Robinson.

 

He's right on par with Hennig, I think. I like Hennig better as a worker but Shawn probably has a bigger list of good-to-great matches.

[NintendoLogic]

Has Shawn Michaels ever had a match as good as the best Dandy stuff? That's not a very fair comparison for Michaels.

You'd obviously think so because you're a lucha superfan. For me, it boils down to "who would you rather watch." I'd rather listen to a decent metal band than the greatest reggae band of all time.

 

Even limiting it to the US, I'm not sure how Shawn compares to Flair, Funk, Lawler, Steamboat, Savage or Vader. Some of those guys probably don't have the strong list of good matches that Shawn has, but some have one that blows his away, and the ones that don't were far more consistent.

That's why I limited it to guys whose careers were primarily US-based. With guys like Funk, Eddy, Hansen, and Vader, their reps are based largely on their overseas work. For US-based guys, even if you put Flair, Lawler, Steamboat, and Savage above Shawn, that's still top 5.

 

He may compare favorably to Bret. My opinion of Bret has dropped some after watching the 1992 - 1996 yearbooks. Bret is for the most part a guy who had good big show matches and dogged it a lot of the time on small shows. There are exceptions, like the Flair Ironman, the Steiners tag and a few others, but on a PPV, Bret would be motivated to pull a good match out of Papa Shango. On Coliseum Video, he's going through the motions with him.

I don't know if this metric necessarily favors Shawn, since he was pretty notorious for mailing it in when the cameras weren't rolling. And as I said in the ranking WWE champions thread, I place much more emphasis on being great in big match situations.

 

I think the best comparisons for Shawn are guys like Rude and Hennig. Generally good careers. Pockets of being great. Not quite at the elite level for many reasons. Shawn had a longer run than they did due to the layoff, but otherwise, I think that's a good comparison. Rude has isolated performances that I think were awesome too, but he has lots of periods where he isn't doing much. I see Shawn the same way.

I agree that those two had pockets of greatness, but I don't think either one of them had a year that was nearly as strong as Shawn's 1996.

 

Overall, Shawn kind of reminds me of that joke about how Canada could have had British culture, French cuisine, and American technology but ended up with American culture, British cuisine, and French technology. Shawn's kind of like a cross between Steamboat and Kobashi, but rather than Steamboat's matwork and Kobashi's offense, he had Kobashi's matwork and Steamboat's offense. I suppose that undermines my argument somewhat, but I think that Shawn had a way of making his work better than the sum of its parts.

[Dylan Waco]

I agree that those two had pockets of greatness, but I don't think either one of them had a year that was nearly as strong as Shawn's 1996.

I think Shawn's 96 is even more overrated than HHH's 00 and this is coming from someone who agrees that it was a good year for Shawn.

 

Hennig's peak I think was easily better than Shawn's but I'll save that discussion for the Shawn thread if anyone really wants to have it.

[Matt D]

Honestly, I think discussing Hennig's peak should wait a little bit.

 

As for Eaton, if I ever did another project again I'd want to look at Eaton's singles run in 91. I've had that in my head for a while, but I'm not sure if I'll ever do it.

[JerryvonKramer]

I really like Eaton's match with Arn. Can't recall seeing or need to re-see the Austin and Flair matches from that year.

[Dylan Waco]

Honestly, I think discussing Hennig's peak should wait a little bit.

As for Eaton, if I ever did another project again I'd want to look at Eaton's singles run in 91. I've had that in my head for a while, but I'm not sure if I'll ever do it.

 

Well in a month or two it's going to be out there because I will be SHOCKED if the AWA Set does not really shine a light on him and the Portland set will expand it.

[El-P]

I agree that those two had pockets of greatness, but I don't think either one of them had a year that was nearly as strong as Shawn's 1996.

I think Shawn's 96 is even more overrated than HHH's 00 and this is coming from someone who agrees that it was a good year for Shawn.

Agreed.

[Matt D]

Honestly, I think discussing Hennig's peak should wait a little bit.

As for Eaton, if I ever did another project again I'd want to look at Eaton's singles run in 91. I've had that in my head for a while, but I'm not sure if I'll ever do it.

 

Well in a month or two it's going to be out there because I will be SHOCKED if the AWA Set does not really shine a light on him and the Portland set will expand it.

 

That would be the "little bit" I was talking about

[Loss]

Has Shawn Michaels ever had a match as good as the best Dandy stuff? That's not a very fair comparison for Michaels.

You'd obviously think so because you're a lucha superfan. For me, it boils down to "who would you rather watch." I'd rather listen to a decent metal band than the greatest reggae band of all time.

See, for me, that opens a can of worms. I'd rather watch Kensuke Sasaki try hard and be carried than watch most Shawn Michaels matches. But no way would I put Sasaki above Shawn.

 

That's why I limited it to guys whose careers were primarily US-based. With guys like Funk, Eddy, Hansen, and Vader, their reps are based largely on their overseas work. For US-based guys, even if you put Flair, Lawler, Steamboat, and Savage above Shawn, that's still top 5.

Vader's rep for me is mostly based on his WCW matches from 1992-1995. For WCW (specifically after the Turner buyout), there is no one I would rank higher for having good matches in that company. The international stuff only enhances his case. Eddy also had better matches in the U.S. than he did Japan or Mexico (with a couple of very notable exceptions).

 

I agree that those two had pockets of greatness, but I don't think either one of them had a year that was nearly as strong as Shawn's 1996.

Having recently watched both Shawn's 1996 and Rude's 1992, I'd give the edge to Rude's '92. Shawn had the match with Mankind that was outstanding, and everything else was very good at best. I still thought he had a good year, as Dylan said. Rude had two matches at least as good as Mind Games (Steamboat and Chono), plus War Games and a better list of free TV matches too.

 

Shawn was absolutely better than the sum of his parts, and I think the overall point is correct. It's not meant as a knock on Shawn. It's more that I think others are better.

[Dylan Waco]

Rude in 92 was a guy who was good in everything he did whether it was a tag match, multi-man, Iron man with Steamer, short tv match with Pillman (which I think is a GREAT tv match and if I were ever to do a comp of my favorite matches ever would make the cut) and was a lot less reliant on "other stuff" than Shawn. I mean I like Good Friends, Better Enemies FAR more than most people who think selling is the key to a good match. But that is a match where Shawn was working right in his comfort zone

[Bix]

I've seen the Pro match and the Cage match on the Horsemen DVD. Haven't seen the Cage match from World Pro.

 

I haven't seen any of his singles from Memphis.

 

I'm not trying to knock Morton because he was great. It's just that Michaels was easily better in my view. I think there's a little less skill required in being a great worker in southern tags than there is in working long-ish singles matches.

See if you can track down the handheld of the Flair-Morton 60 minute draw. It's clipped to about 35 minutes but it's a pretty fantastic match that's different from the other famous long Flair matches available on tape.