Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 3

[mookeighana]

So is there not much sun in Washington? That's unfortunate.

Well, Seattle is kind of renown for it's overcast & gloomy climate (see also every documentary about grunge music in the 90s).

 

According to this site: http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/US/a...te-sunshine.php - they were third lowest total hours of sun (among 47 US States listed) trailing only Syracuse, New York and Anchorage, Alaska.

As someone who grew up in Upstate NY, I didn't think of us as being a place prone to Seasonal Affective Disorder but the grey skies of home are something that my wife noted when she moved from Minnesota (#21).

[anarchistxx]

Weird how time passes. When Shawn Michaels came back in 2002 he hadn't wrestled in four and a half years - it seemed like forever to me at the time. Yet four and a half years ago from now Randy Orton and Triple-H were having that terribly anticlimatic match at Wrestlemania 25, which seems like yesterday by comparison. Not sure what point I'm making here, probably that time starts to merge into one when you got older. Big gaps become small.

 

Another point is that between 1998 and 2002 wrestling changed significantly, so maybe it seems longer. By comparison, wrestling has hardly changed at all between 2006 and 2013, which is why it seems to have flown by.

 

At the time did the gap between 1998 and 2002 seem big for long term fans? Or was it how the gap between 2009 and 2013 is to me today?

[mookeighana]

Weird how time passes. When Shawn Michaels came back in 2002 he hadn't wrestled in four and a half years - it seemed like forever to me at the time. Yet four and a half years ago from now Randy Orton and Triple-H were having that terribly anticlimatic match at Wrestlemania 25, which seems like yesterday by comparison. Not sure what point I'm making here, probably that time starts to merge into one when you got older. Big gaps become small.

 

Another point is that between 1998 and 2002 wrestling changed significantly, so maybe it seems longer. By comparison, wrestling has hardly changed at all between 2006 and 2013, which is why it seems to have flown by.

 

At the time did the gap between 1998 and 2002 seem big for long term fans? Or was it how the gap between 2009 and 2013 is to me today?

I agree - the 1998 to 2002 gap felt a lot longer than 2009 to 2013.

 

I think some of it has to do with the number of PPVs going on during that time and the fact you had two rival companies disappear while Michaels was out.

 

Using the endpoint of Austin/Michaels at WM XIV, HBK was out for 52 WWE PPVs (Unforgiven 1998 to Vengeance 2002). Also, there was 36 WCW and 17 ECW PPVs during that time.

Both ECW and WCW promotions essentially tumbled into the abyss during the time that Shawn Michaels was no longer an active competitor.

(Also, If you go back 52 PPVs from Shawn's match at WM XIV, that's 7+ years -- Royal Rumble 1992. Think about how much WWF changed between Tuesday in Texas and early 1998!).

 

52 WWE PPVs away from WrestleMania XXV (HHH vs. Orton; Cena vs. Show vs. Edge; UT vs. HBK) would be basically be this year's Wrestlemania (Rock vs. Cena; HHH vs. Lesnar; Undertaker vs. Punk) - same three fellas in the top three matches (Cena, HHH, Undertaker).

[Matt D]

Has wrestling really changed in the last five years? The brand split basically ended. We have a bunch of new B-C shows. There's much more of a web/digital/app presence. We sort of hit the nadir of WWE PG and came back out somewhat.

[anarchistxx]

There has been a slight stylistic change in the ring - only slight though, as the matches are worked more or less the same just without any of the blood or excessive violence that got wheeled out before. Otherwise the presentation is more or less the same, there is still just one major company who controls everything, their show formats are the same, most of the same workers are on screen.

 

Compare that to the changes between 1998 and 2002, which are gargantuan by comparison. Changes of styles, changes of presentation, aesthetics, two massive companies biting the dust, complete shakeup of rosters. If you watch, say, Wrestlemania 13 and Wrestlemania 17 back to back they are unbelievably different. Wrestlemania 25 and 29? Indistinguishable.

 

For a business that was so innovative in the 90s, with such forward momentum, it has become unbelievable stale and bereft of fresh ideas. Just the same things recycled over. It is a formula that works, but the idea that US wrestling has changed significantly in the last five years is not one I can get behind.

[Loss]

I remember when they would change the corner logo every few years. That hasn't happened in a long time and as small of a detail as it is, I do think it's representative of everything being so stagnant.

[Death From Above]

I actually think they're in much better shape roster-wise than they were just a few years ago. One of my main complaints about them not *that* long ago was that they had a roster full of "guys that have already wrestled each other 100 times each" and since then they've tried pushing a lot of new people pretty hard.

 

I'm not sure when this happened exactly as I haven't followed them that closely in years, but I want to say that Edge retiring started a snowball of new people shuffling up the card happening. The company looks really, really different from the days of Evolution and beyond when they went through like 3 years of just recycling the same 8 dudes. Now they're onto a somewhat new 8 dudes. ;-)

 

Shaemus came sort of out of the blue, CM Punk has been a hit, as has Daniel Bryan. There are many others. Granted, not everyone is a giant Alberto Del Rio or Ziggler fan, but they've found this entire new generation (no pun intended) of workers that have at least freshened them up in that sense from my perspective. Roster stagnation was my biggest turn off from their show at one point and it now feels like I've been away long enough that this isn't an issue, for me.

 

At this point WWE should feel pretty content, as they shuffled out guys like Batista and Edge and Angle and have proven in the end almost every part they have is interchangeable.

[mookeighana]

Consider this:

 

Thirty People with the most matches

Jan-March 1998:The Rock, Billy Gunn, Mick Foley, Ken Shamrock, Dustin Rhodes, Marc Mero, The Road Dogg, Don Harris, Taka Michinoku, Headbanger Mosh, Brian Christopher, Headbanger Thrasher, Owen Hart, Brian Lee, Tom Brandi, Ron Harris, Kane, Steve Austin, Dennis Knight, Mark Canterbury, Ron Simmons, Savio Vega, John Bradshaw Layfield, D-Lo Brown, Road Warrior Hawk, Road Warrior Animal, Terry Funk, Triple H, Carl Ouellet, Jacques Rougeau

June-August 2002: Stevie Richards, John Bradshaw Layfield, Eddie Guerrero, Spike Dudley, Tommy Dreamer, Shawn Stasiak, Raven, Rob Van Dam, Justin Credible, the Big Show, Booker T, Kurt Angle, Billy Kidman, Jamie Noble, Bob Holly, Molly Holly, Brock Lesnar, Yoshihiro Tajiri, Hurricane Helms, Matt Hardy, Trish Stratus, Rikishi, Chuck Palumbo, Billy Gunn, William Regal, Christian, Dustin Rhodes, Chavo Guerrero Jr, John Cena, Lance Storm

 

The three people on both lists? JBL, Goldust and Cute Kip.

 

Jan-March 2009: Edge, Shelton Benjamin, Beth Phoenix, Jack Swagger, CM Punk, Melina, Kofi Kingston, the Big Show, Rey Mysterio Jr, John Cena, Vladimir Kozlov, Carlito Caribbean Cool, Primo Colon, The Miz, MVP, Kane, John Morrison, Randy Orton, Jeff Hardy, Brian Kendrick, Fit Finlay, Mark Henry, William Regal, Chris Jericho, Ron Killings, Triple H, Shad Gaspard, the Undertaker, JTG, The Great Khali

May-July 2013: Randy Orton, Daniel Bryan, Alberto Del Rio, Sheamus, Seth Rollins, Cody Rhodes, Roman Reigns, Curtis Axel, Dean Ambrose, Chris Jericho, Wade Barrett, Ryback, Kane, Christian, Damien Sandow, The Miz, Fandango, Antonio Cesaro, Jey Uso, Dolph Ziggler, Kaitlyn, Jimmy, Darren Young, Kofi Kingston, AJ, CM Punk, Jack Swagger, John Cena, Titus O'Neil, Zack Ryder

 

People on both of those lists? Orton, Cena, Punk, Kofi, The Miz, Kane, Jericho

[Strummer]

One of my main complaints about them not *that* long ago was that they had a roster full of "guys that have already wrestled each other 100 times each" and since then they've tried pushing a lot of new people pretty hard.

 

I absolutely agree with this point. People who complain about Orton/Cena Round 345 aren't really watching. Four years ago it was brutal with the repeat matches and the same guys on top. Not the case currently. To me that makes the product feel somewhat fresh. Stylistically and aesthetically they absolutely need to make changes to the show

[jdw]

Is it hopelessly naive of me to think that Daniel Bryan isn't on roids?

Dunno but he is allergic/intolerant to a lot of stuff.

 

Bryan got those muscles on his neck and shoulder through hard work and a great diet.

 

Exactly. I know people with a similar physique who play rugby who are completely chemical free, they simply eat well (and very regimented) don't drink, and work out 5 times a week. Daniel Bryan doesn't scream steroids at all.

 

[ButchReedMark]

Maybe not, but Sidebottom has a point. A load of people I play/have played Rugby with do have similar physiques just from nailing the Gym. It's almost the Welsh National Physique these days.

[Phil Schneider]

Man when I played rugby everyone had Dick Murdochs body. What kind of pansy shit has happened to Rugby

[ButchReedMark]

Where did you play though? It's worth noting Rugby is taken tremendously seriously here in Wales and we're playing full contact by the age of 10 and encouraged into gyms to build strength for the game not long after that age. Especially in the shoulders, neck and legs if you're a forward like I was. It's not strange to see people playing back row to be nearly 6' and 14st of muscle by 14 or 15. If you even look at the relatively low levels I play you don't see any/many Dick Murdoch bodies anymore.

[Jmare007]

[jdw]

Maybe not, but Sidebottom has a point. A load of people I play/have played Rugby with do have similar physiques just from nailing the Gym. It's almost the Welsh National Physique these days.

Everyone who is a wrestler, is on the road, working matches, working through injuries and has a body like that has always said it was from hard work at the gym and a good diet.

 

For 30 years.

 

We can do some side by sides of Bryan from his ROH days to his early WWE days to that "I'm happy to show off my body next to Cena's" clip. It's the same type of changes we've seen for years. And in turn, the same lack of changes that saw Hero get in the dog house.

[ButchReedMark]

Are you definitely saying there's absolutely no way he got that physique cleanly then, for the sake of clarity?

 

Personally I'm saying neither of the two extremes, just that it is possible to get a great physique cleanly as an athlete and there's many people who I know who can attest to that. Do you not acknowledge that it's possible? Is there any possibility that his change to a protein-rich meat filled diet could have anything to do with his physical development?

[Matt D]

Am I wildly overdramatic for wishing he'd stop doing the diving headbutt?

[BrickHithouse]

Am I wildly overdramatic for wishing he'd stop doing the diving headbutt?

Hell no. I'm shocked anyone is still doing it.

[ButchReedMark]

No, I wish he'd give it a rest too.

[jdw]

Are you definitely saying there's absolutely no way he got that physique cleanly then, for the sake of clarity?

 

Personally I'm saying neither of the two extremes, just that it is possible to get a great physique cleanly as an athlete and there's many people who I know who can attest to that. Do you not acknowledge that it's possible? Is there any possibility that his change to a protein-rich meat filled diet could have anything to do with his physical development?

I'm saying that I'm tired of close to 30 years of people saying they don't juice.

[ohtani's jacket]

Where did you play though? It's worth noting Rugby is taken tremendously seriously here in Wales and we're playing full contact by the age of 10 and encouraged into gyms to build strength for the game not long after that age. Especially in the shoulders, neck and legs if you're a forward like I was. It's not strange to see people playing back row to be nearly 6' and 14st of muscle by 14 or 15. If you even look at the relatively low levels I play you don't see any/many Dick Murdoch bodies anymore.

Does this make Bryan Danielson the Mike Phillips of professional wrestling?

[ButchReedMark]

I don't think Danielson's been arrested outside of enough clubs for that yet! I'd say he's the Leigh Halfpenny, physical development wise. Large change in his physique between 2009 and 2011.

[ohtani's jacket]

I didn't realise Halfpenny was that big. Those Welsh boys sure like their gym work.

[ButchReedMark]

He's about 5'9" and 14st stone now. Mind, all our backs are pretty hefty. George North is 6'4 and 17st or so, Dr Jamie Roberts weighs about the same but is 6'3". Massive culture for massive physical strength and fitness in current Welsh rugby. And I'd wager they're clean, so there's no reason all wrestlers can't get big and develop their physiques and be clean while doing it.

[ButchReedMark]

IGNORE: Buggered up and doubled posted.