A thread in which Dylan compares various wrestlers to HHH

[Dylan Waco]

Pretty funny thread. Some claims are totally outrageous (and I'm a HHH hater), but some really good points are made too. Also, I'm sick of the Raven bashing at this point, which is getting pretty ridiculous and totally overblown.

I can't even fathom the idea of having to go through the entire last decade of WWE TV with HHH on top. A nightmare of dullness on every front.

Can you let us know which claims you think are outrageous?

 

Saying New Jack being easily better than about anyone is outrageous to me, although I haven't seen any of his SMW work. Still, New Jack in ECW was crap, pure and simple. FF material every time. I didn't even think he was a particulary good promo there (and really, I have a hard time enjoying any promo when I know the match will be pure shit).

That would be it as far as "outrageous" goes. Yeah, I really don't care for Triple H after 1997...

 

That bolded part

[Phil Schneider]

Jerome's gimmick is to give long winded self important pronouncements on things he hasn't seen. Don't pull back the curtain.

[El-P]

Nice to see you're still acting like a dickhead after all these years Schneider. Don't grow up, stay the same, it's perfectly fine with me. For all I care...

 

To Dylan : yes, I haven't seen his SMW days, that's why I mentionned it to make it perfectly clear I'm basing my opinion of Jack's most famous ECW years.

Yet, we're still talking about New Jack people. *New Jack*. If we have reached the point where we can say "Hey, he's dissing New Jack, he's a snobish fucker with dated opinions" when one has a hard time even considering the eventuality that New Jack may be a better worker that HHH, keep me posted. Hopefully New Jack will be the great find of the SMW set. Gotta have one I guess.

[El-P]

Jerome's gimmick is to give long winded self important pronouncements on things he hasn't seen. Don't pull back the curtain.

You obviously haven't read many posts I've done in the last few years.

Which is totally fine with me, since I probably haven't read anything you wrote about wrestling since about... 2001 or so. How time flies.

[Dylan Waco]

Nice to see you're still acting like a dickhead after all these years Schneider. Don't grow up, stay the same, it's perfectly fine with me. For all I care...

 

To Dylan : yes, I haven't seen his SMW days, that's why I mentionned it to make it perfectly clear I'm basing my opinion of Jack's most famous ECW years.

Yet, we're still talking about New Jack people. *New Jack*. If we have reached the point where we can say "Hey, he's dissing New Jack, he's a snobish fucker with dated opinions" when one has a hard time even considering the eventuality that New Jack may be a better worker that HHH, keep me posted. Hopefully New Jack will be the great find of the SMW set. Gotta have one I guess.

Please can the "there are no great finds" schtick.

 

New Jack was a great promo in SMW and a surprisingly competent wrestler. Bell to bell HHH was better than Jack for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that Jack never bothered to build on the surprisingly solid tools he had in 95. All around HHH was never as good as Jack was in 95.

[Dylan Waco]

I apologize to Bix for being so late to answer him.

 

Hiromichi/Ricky/Samson/Kodo Fuyuki

 

Fuyuki smokes HHH based on the AJPW run alone. I have not gone back and watched the FMW stuff in years and wonder how I would like it. At the time I didn't think much of it, but in a sense he sort of reminds me of a HHH a bit during that era. But the AJPW stuff is awesome. I actually thought he was the better worker in the Footloose team for big chunks of their run. In 88 he was holy shit level great, an offensive dynamo, bump freak and a great guy to build heat off of. Pat Tanaka was awesome and Fuyuki was the World's best Pat Tanaka. HHH was the World's best Alex Porteau...maybe.

 

Manabu Nakanishi

 

I am really soft on Nakanishi. Don't hate him nearly as much as others. Still I struggle to think of good performances from him, or even matches where he was carried as successfully as Trip could be at times. I think in terms of what they bring to the game this is pretty lateral, but HHH has had better dance partners and wrestled in a style that is far more suited to his capabilities (and to covering up the ones he lacks).

 

Mike Awesome

 

I honestly think I would take HHH over Awesome. Awesome was a guy who was really fun the first few times you saw him but wore out really quick. I would not call him bad really because he had his act and it worked for him. But he was a terrible promo and his one speed was not something that I thought fit well unless he had someone to bump huge for him. Another guy who I could flip on if I saw some FMW

 

Virgil

 

I remember really liking some NWO B-Team Vincent. For angles with spoiled white man of privilege exploiting the services of minorities/women, Dibiase/Virigil was more entertaining to watch unfold than HHH/Chyna was. Plus Virgil/Dibiase had a pretty good blow off. Honestly I can't make a case for Virgil, but I do wish HHH had a more Virgil like role.

 

Kendall Windham

 

Kendall was better. That will seem like a troll to some people, maybe even a lot of people but I don't give a shit. Skinny dipshit Kendall was an underrated wrestler who had good mechanics. Old man Kendall was one of the kings of WCWSN and a tough surly bastard. For stables led by egregious overbumpers wearing cowboy hats, West Texas Rednecks were way better than DX also.

 

Scott Norton

 

Would really need to go back and watch some NJPW to be totally fair here, but I remember liking Norton a good bit as a brick wall with his some tight looking offense. I doubt he's got a top five that matches HHH's top five, but he's probably got a disproportionate amount of fun tv matches, whereas HHH was often a tv killer. I don't really feel comfortable putting Norton over HHH but I get the feeling that I would like more Fire and Ice matches than 2003 HHH matches.

 

Reckless Youth

 

Have not seen a Reckless Youth match in a long, long time. I cannot imagine HHH was better mind you, but I can't even remember the last time I saw an RY match or even thought about him in a meaningful way as a worker.

 

The Amazing Red

 

I prefer Red by a safe margin. Red had flaws but he was a truly dynamic performer who could do the "never before seen" schtick and it worked because it was never before seen. The Low Ki matches still hold up really well for me and even his recent appearances show that he is still a super entertaining spot wrestler. If someone was selling a best of Red comp I'd think about buying it. If someone was selling a best of HHH comp? Well..

 

Trent Acid

 

Not really a Trent Acid fan, but someone can feel free to point me to matches.

[El-P]

Please can the "there are no great finds" schtick.

You still can't take sarcasm. Chill out a bit.

 

New Jack was a great promo in SMW and a surprisingly competent wrestler. Bell to bell HHH was better than Jack for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that Jack never bothered to build on the surprisingly solid tools he had in 95. All around HHH was never as good as Jack was in 95.

I'll get back to you on this as soon as I get through SMW TV, which may be sooner than later. I may or may not agree with you on this. Needless to say I would be shocked to see New Jack being actually good, but I don't think I could be blamed for this.

[El-P]

I apologize to Bix for being so late to answer him.

 

Hiromichi/Ricky/Samson/Kodo Fuyuki

 

Fuyuki smokes HHH based on the AJPW run alone.

Actually Fuyuki smokes HHH based on his FMW run alone. HHH never had as great of a performance Fuyuki had going with Hayabusa for one hour.

[El-P]

I honestly think I would take HHH over Awesome. Awesome was a guy who was really fun the first few times you saw him but wore out really quick. I would not call him bad really because he had his act and it worked for him. But he was a terrible promo and his one speed was not something that I thought fit well unless he had someone to bump huge for him. Another guy who I could flip on if I saw some FMW

Awesome was much better at working his style of match than HHH was at working his style of match. If you want to put it that way "He played his role better".

That said, Awesome needed a guy to bump huge for him. He was a great base to bump from, and with the right guys he could have spectacular matches. That being said, and despite being a huge FMW fan, HHH is a more solid wrestler. With the wrong opponents, Awesome really isn't doing much good. Awesome's best matches are much better and more fun than HHH's best matches though. But he can thank Hayabusa, Tanaka and Kanemura for playing along.

[Dylan Waco]

Please can the "there are no great finds" schtick.

You still can't take sarcasm. Chill out a bit.

 

New Jack was a great promo in SMW and a surprisingly competent wrestler. Bell to bell HHH was better than Jack for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that Jack never bothered to build on the surprisingly solid tools he had in 95. All around HHH was never as good as Jack was in 95.

I'll get back to you on this as soon as I get through SMW TV, which may be sooner than later. I may or may not agree with you on this. Needless to say I would be shocked to see New Jack being actually good, but I don't think I could be blamed for this.

 

I can take sarcasm, but if it's stupid I'm going to point it out.

 

I'm not saying Jack was a great wrestler in 95 - he wasn't. But he had fundamentals. He was a surprisingly good at playing both a chickenshit heel AND a savage brawler depending the match/opponent. His diving clothesline really was a great looking spot. He was the beginning of a very good wrestler who went up North and found trash cans full of plunder and that was that.

[El-P]

I'm not saying Jack was a great wrestler in 95 - he wasn't. But he had fundamentals. He was a surprisingly good at playing both a chickenshit heel AND a savage brawler depending the match/opponent. His diving clothesline really was a great looking spot. He was the beginning of a very good wrestler who went up North and found trash cans full of plunder and that was that.

Well, if that's a case then it's a shame. The only thing I'm willing to give New Jack in ECW is that during the first stint at least, before he went insane, the Gangsta style brawling was nowhere near as violent as it looked to be if you pay attention. Not that it was any more watchable, but at least they weren't killing people brain cells like Balls. I think the only Gangsta match I ever enjoyed was the FBI title win, thanks to you know who.

[Blehschmidt]

How about:

 

George Steele

Barry Horowitz

Manny Fernandez

Barry Darsow

Tatanka

CW Anderson

Perry Saturn

Tom Zenk

Al Snow

Dave Taylor

Paul Burchill

Van Hammer

Jimmy Del Rey

Tony Mamaluke

Damien 666

[KB8]

I've hardly seen any FMW Fuyuki, but All Japan Fuyuki was great and WAR Fuyuki is fucking awesome. That tag with him and Hara against Hashimoto and Ohara is out of this world awesome and Fuyuki is just a lumpy ass-stomper the whole time. Trip fans reading this thread will probably think a lot of what's been said is a bit "out there," but I'd say that match is literally better than anything Helmsley has ever done in his career.

[FLIK]

I apologize to Bix for being so late to answer him.

 

Hiromichi/Ricky/Samson/Kodo Fuyuki

 

Fuyuki smokes HHH based on the AJPW run alone.

Actually Fuyuki smokes HHH based on his FMW run alone. HHH never had as great of a performance Fuyuki had going with Hayabusa for one hour.

 

Bah, I still think that Fuyuki/Hayabusa 60 min match stunk, The HHH/Rock 60 min match smoked it. Course, Fuyuki & Hayabusa had other matches that were better then Rock/HHH but yeah nuts to their Iron Man.

 

Manabu Nakanishi

 

I am really soft on Nakanishi. Don't hate him nearly as much as others. Still I struggle to think of good performances from him, or even matches where he was carried as successfully as Trip could be at times. I think in terms of what they bring to the game this is pretty lateral, but HHH has had better dance partners and wrestled in a style that is far more suited to his capabilities (and to covering up the ones he lacks).

Do ppl still really hate Nakanishi?

I'm a fan of his myself and have seen him in a lot of quality matches. I watched the 2008 G1 not long ago and he had a real strong showing thear for example. His matches vs Kojima & Ohtani stood out as being really good and he had one of the best matches of the tournament vs Tanahashi.

[El-P]

Bah, I still think that Fuyuki/Hayabusa 60 min match stunk, The HHH/Rock 60 min match smoked it. Course, Fuyuki & Hayabusa had other matches that were better then Rock/HHH but yeah nuts to their Iron Man.

I think HHH/Rock 60 minutes smoked Hart/Michaels 60 minutes. That doesn't mean I think either are better workers than Hart or Michaels. Plus one reason this match was as good as it was is creative booking, from Patterson I guess. It was really tons of smokes and mirrors, but it worked wonders when you think about the atrocious 30 min match they had in 98.

Anyway, whatever you think of the match itself, Fuyuki was better in this than HHH ever was in a long match.

And although I haven't seen a lot of his WAR matches (hello Phil, still around ?), there are some really good stuff there too. Between AJPW, WAR and FMW, Fuyuki really blows HHH away.

[Bix]

I like Rock-HHH better than Fuyuki-Hayabusa, too, but Fuyuki has the best individual performance in either match. Rock-HHH feels more like a collaborative effort with WWE agent pacing while the FMW match feels like it's all Fuyuki.

[Dooley]

Bah, I still think that Fuyuki/Hayabusa 60 min match stunk, The HHH/Rock 60 min match smoked it. Course, Fuyuki & Hayabusa had other matches that were better then Rock/HHH but yeah nuts to their Iron Man.

I think HHH/Rock 60 minutes smoked Hart/Michaels 60 minutes. That doesn't mean I think either are better workers than Hart or Michaels. Plus one reason this match was as good as it was is creative booking, from Patterson I guess. It was really tons of smokes and mirrors, but it worked wonders when you think about the atrocious 30 min match they had in 98.

 

Wasn't one of the reasons HBK was guest ref so he could call spots?

[Dylan Waco]

Sting

 

Sting is a whole lot better than Helmsley ever was. There are a lot of criticisms you can make of Sting as a worker (cue Vic with the "like?" reply), but in some he brought a real energy to his matches and could deliver in a huge way between the bells. The Vader series alone is better than HHH's entire career in the ring, and those were not Vader carry jobs as a Sting was the perfect foil for him. I'm not in love with the Sting v. Regal matches, but they are matches closer in form to what HHH claims he is as a wrestler than anything HHH has ever done. The Foley brawls are really excellent. Sting was a highspot machine at times for a heavy of his size, but was not really a spotty wrestler. He could sell - particularly fatigue - really well and was very strong at playing the fired up babyface without crossing the line into the World of the super cartoony. He was also really good at getting over both his finishers which is something I am a fan of in wrestling. Even post-crow Sting would surprise you with matches and performances where he was working above what the traditional conception of him was. I will say that HHH was a better opponent for Flair which will sound blasphemous or crazy to a lot of people. But aside from that I can't think of any area where I would give HHH in the edge.

 

Lex Luger

 

Luger laps HHH. I always thought HHH would have been thousands of times better if he had aped Luger's 89 character. I doubt he could have or would have done it, but it seems like it would have been a better fit than what we got. Luger was a good wrestler from 87-92 with flashes of greatness in 89 and parts of 88. If you put peak HHH in 89 I don't think he has matches near that quality with Hayes, Rich, Pillman or even Steamboat. Luger was also a better opponent for Flair so there goes that advantage for HHH. Post-prime Luger was also better than post-prime HHH. I wouldn't argue if someone said that HHH had better matches after his prime than Luger did after his, but Luger was a really fun character in 96 and 97 WCW and worked hard more often than not. Those Bret matches a bit later were better than any HHH tv match I have seen in the last ten years. HHH was more successful at parlaying his affair with well known female wrestling personality into major career advancement so there is that.

 

Davey Boy Smith

 

I think DBS is pretty clearly better than HHH. Yeah Bret carried him through that one match, but he didn't carry them at the superior IYH match and Davey could go when he wanted to. I actually thought he was a better HHH, than HHH as he actually had some decent chain wrestling technique that allowed him to work as both a powerhouse and as a "ring general" type in the right setting. Over all he undercheived for his talent level, but there are still far more DBS matches where I thought he was a standout than HHH matches of the same sort.

 

Owen Hart

 

This isn't close. Owen was one of the most naturally gifted wrestlers I've ever seen. A guy who could go on cruise control and have a good match. At times this led Owen to do less than he could have, but he had far more quality than not. Hell I recently discovered a match with him and Greg Valentine that would probably be a top five match ever in the career of HHH and you got the feelling watching it that it was a normal Blue Blazer era house show match for Owen.

[Victator]

There are a lot of criticisms you can make of Sting as a worker (cue Vic with the "like?" reply)

He is not good at leading a match. Or wasn't during his big run. He can come up with really well thought out series of spots, unfortunately he is not good at filling up time while he is coming up with something.

 

About Luger, he was underrated in later day WCW. He had matches with Goldberg that were better than anything HHH did with Goldberg.

[Jingus]

Even post-crow Sting would surprise you with matches and performances where he was working above what the traditional conception of him was.

Uh. When? Because I don't think I've ever seen such a dramatic before/after contrast in ring skills as there was with Sting after his gimmick change. Most of the time he looked like he'd completely given up and was just running through the motions. (Especially memorable was his godawful performance at Halloween Havoc '98, when he dragged the worst match I've ever seen from Bret Hart.) Every once in a while he'd seem to wake up and have a better-than-expected match with random folks like DDP or Sid, but mostly it's like it wasn't even the same guy. Oddly, it seems like he tries harder in TNA than he did in late-90s WCW, but by then his body was shot and you could tell that he couldn't do the stuff he wanted to anymore.

 

About Luger, he was underrated in later day WCW. He had matches with Goldberg that were better than anything HHH did with Goldberg.

...that's actually a damn good point. I'm not nearly as high on Luger as many here are, but yeah, those matches with 'Berg were way better than I expected.

[Chess Knight]

Even post-crow Sting would surprise you with matches and performances where he was working above what the traditional conception of him was.

Uh. When? Because I don't think I've ever seen such a dramatic before/after contrast in ring skills as there was with Sting after his gimmick change. Most of the time he looked like he'd completely given up and was just running through the motions. (Especially memorable was his godawful performance at Halloween Havoc '98, when he dragged the worst match I've ever seen from Bret Hart.) Every once in a while he'd seem to wake up and have a better-than-expected match with random folks like DDP or Sid, but mostly it's like it wasn't even the same guy. Oddly, it seems like he tries harder in TNA than he did in late-90s WCW, but by then his body was shot and you could tell that he couldn't do the stuff he wanted to anymore.

Sting had some really good matches in 1999 (albeit, to me, surprisingly). v DDP 4/26 smokes any other WCW match from 99 through to the end. 9/20 v Benoit rocks, and 4/12 v Flair felt like Sting had never changed from the late 80s. I'm not going to touch on the HHH stuff, but yeah, I went through some 99 WCW recently and Sting stuck out to me as a "holy shit he isn't completely sucking like I expected but is actually pretty damn good" wrestler during the period.

[Dylan Waco]

Big John Studd

 

Studd was pretty terrible. I'm not a fan of HHH but he is good at certain things. He runs the ropes well, in his best days he was very good bumper, he could and would bleed, at his best he can milk near falls for big "moments." Studd at trouble walking around at times.

 

Hercules

 

You know I feel like Herc is probably better, but I can't formulate an argument one way or the other because I haven't watched Herc in years.

 

Junkyard Dog

 

HHH was the better worker, but JYD was not as abysmal as he is made out to be. As a star this isn't close and no matter what sort of new school numerology Meltzer wants to pull out of his ass, JYD was the bigger star.

 

Bad News Brown

 

Bad News was always better in theory to me than in practice. He definitely had the look and gave off an asskicker aura but he felt really flat in the ring. People who saw him in Stampede tend to think he was incredible, but who knows for sure.

 

Warlord

 

This is one roided guy that HHH was safely better than in every respect.

 

Jim Neidhart

 

I liked Neidhart enough to have to think about this. In some ways I thought he carried the Hart Foundation as he was the personality of the team and his big spots were visually impressive for a guy his size to the point where as a kid I thought he was the "cooler" of the two in the ring also. Could get real chinlocky real fast, but I would rather a guy be hidden in a tag team that can play to his strengths than dominate a show for years politically with all the booking exposing his weaknesses. HHH make a better "marry into the business" choice at least. I am actually really torn here. I'll lean HHH I guess but I could be convinced otherwise.

 

Brian Knobbs

Jerry Sags

 

As a package I have no problem saying they were better. Nasty's were not unlike HHH in that they were reportedly difficult, stuck up pricks backstage who retained employment through friendship with powerful people. They were also remarkably unprofessional in the ring, though unlike HHH their unprofessional behavior added to their matches. Really when you compare HHH burying Booker T at Mania after months of watermelon/fried chicken level racist shit to Nasty's stiffing Scott Hall or ganso bombing Terry Funk it's really a no contest. Unlike HHH these guys would take what they dished out and then some with Knobbs getting murdered by Maxx Payne and Scott Steiner and Saggs having his face whipped with a belt being the most obvious examples. HHH is a guy who's best matches have been gimmick matches but when I look at his best gimmick matches next to the Nasty's I'll take the Nasty's every time. Nasty's didn't try and work beyond there means but could work in traditional tag settings. They were surprisingly good even in their very early years and the RnR's match from the AWA where Sags loses his teeth is better than any blue blood era Trip match. On their own they are harder to rate because really who thinks of either guy on his own? Sags was the better of the two and is someone I imagine could have had a good career in singles as the World's best Hack Myers. I'm less sure about Knobbs.

 

Brutus Beefcake

 

I actually liked the two "Dizzy Hogan" matches I saw from Portland where he worked heel. I mean he sucked and HHH was better, but maybe in an alternate universe Dizzy Hogan would have been good.

 

Adam Bomb/Wrath

 

Already covered.

 

Yokozuna

 

Yoko with ease. I actually think Yoko was an amazingly good worker when you consider his size. He doesn't have a laundry list of great matches, but he's got a lot of good/fun ones. One of the last great squash match wrestlers ever. Was an excellent tag wrestler. Really great brickwall/weeble wobble selling and my god could he bump for a guy his size with his stock through the ropes bump being one of my favorites of it's type ever. Yoko also had awesome offense as everything he did looked high impact and a lot of it showcases a remarkable degree of agility. If he had been slightly lighter he and in better health he probably would have been the best big man wrestler ever.

 

Ahmed Johnson

 

Ahmed was crazy over. He was like Goldberg with a less stage managed charisma that leaped off the page. He was also an really gifted athlete who would shock you by doing crazy shit like tope con hilo's. There is no way you could reasonably rate him over HHH because he burnt out so fast but I can almost assure you that he would have been.

 

Rikishi

 

I don't see any case for HHH to be honest. Rikishi was actually more over than HHH during HHH's peak period so I'm not even sure that I would give him points for being the bigger star even though HHH obviously was positioned better and has sustained. With Rikishi you not only have his string of fun stuff in the WWE, but you have the tag stuff that proceeded it a lot of which was really violent and intense stuff. It was also totally different than the Rikishi act which is a good testament to the fact that he was more versatile than HHH.

 

Ken Shamrock

 

I need to see his stuff from Japan that I haven't seen. I think his WWE run actually ages fairly well with some really fun matches. He had presence, though he was over the top with his acting at times.

 

Hardcore Holly

 

I will take Holly every day. Holly is underrated. Not a great worker, but safely good. Had a nice looking execution to his spots and was very good at working them into a match. His underdog babyface stuff was hokey, but he had some good performances with that act. The Big Shot era was an actually amusing and entertaining aspect of Attitude Era tv that still holds up today and he was great playing that part. The Hardcore Holly era gave us some really fun matches against a variety of opponents in a variety of settings. Much better live wrestler than HHH in my experience also.

 

The Godfather

 

Godfather is Big John Studd level bad.

 

Test

 

Test wasn't any good, but he was basically HHH without the political connections and not quite as many rope running spots. Once in a while he would do something athletically that would stun you but it wasn't something you couldn't see done better somewhere else.

 

Kane

 

I am a Kane fan and don't really see him as underrated - I've pretty much always hated him though there have been brief spurts where he would surprise me in the ring. I do like Unabomb in 95 a lot, but not enough to offset the Kaneyness of Kane. HHH wins.

 

Charlie Haas

 

Oddly in a sense I think Haas is a bit like HHH in that both guys aren't particularly good but have a decent number of quality matches because of circumstances and opportunity. Also like HHH he's not particularly good at the style he thinks he's good at which means he has a disproportionate number of "you've got to be fucking kidding me" spots as well. I would go with HHH here on the grounds that Haas has never had a real singles run and his tag work never saw him as the definitive star of the team.

 

D-Von Dudley

 

Man I loved D-Von's initial stuff as he showed up as the super serious, borderline racist, "angry black man" Dudley and just destroyed people and had several super fun brawls that were stiff as all hell. Once he got paired with Bubba, I think it was clear Bubba was the much better talent, though D-Von added something to the unit. By the WWE he was all "WAZZUP!" and "TESTIFY" and playing interior decorating for Bubba and not much else. But there is something to be said for a guy who knows his limitations. I am not a super huge Dudz fan, but I imagine Dudleys comp would be much easier to sit through then a DX comp though Shawn would have made a good lazy eyed, inferior worker, long lost twin of Spike.

 

Shelton Benjamin

 

For a while there Shelton had a hybrid J.T. Smith "you fucked up" gimmick but he wasn't as good at it as J.T. He was always good for the big spot or two in the ladder match that would turn heads. At points early on it looked like he would become a really good wrestler, but he never put it all together and is closer to Kurt Angle now which is too bad. I imagine a lot of people would rate him over HHH, but I don't think I would.

 

Rob Van Dam

 

I have condemned RVD as Carot Top many times, but prior to that period he could be really awesome at times. The Sabu matches fucking suck in hindsight, but I really liked his matches with Scorp, his mach with Furnas and his match with Jericho. Matches that were built around his big bumping tend to be awesome as he is great at that. He decided to go the route of shit prop comedy in excessively long matches, but at least the props weren't sledgehammers and stephanie mcmahon slaps. In the WWE RVD had moments and periods not unlike HHH and that is ultimately enough to put him above HHH in my calculus.

 

Mr. Kennedy/Anderson

 

Nothing really positive to say about this guy. In hindsight it seems hilarious that people thought he was going to be the next big thing in wrestling.

 

John Morrison

 

I have bashed the hell out of Morrison over the years and as a singles guy he is in some ways worse on fundamentals than Trip. Having said that over all he is a better wrestler. As a tag worker in MNM he was actually very, very good. Lots of stuff people have forgotten about from ECW with him and Miz as well. As a face he sucked for the most part, but I actually thought toward the end of last year and front end of this year he had a string of quality performances where he really added to the match. He has a match with McIntyre from SS last year that was a really great "flippy guy v. big bruiser" match. Morrison could really give you a trash bag performance, but it wasn't likely to be boring the way HHH's really awful performances were.

 

Kofi Kingston

 

Kofi is pretty bad as he has all of the worst traits of Morrison, but none of the plusses. He has proven that he is easy to hide in a tag setting though and even though he has some really awful looking highspots, he's got a few legitimately nice looking offensive moves though it is largely dependent on who is taking them. Kofi can be led through a match that goes beyond his talent level under the right circumstances with the right guy. HHH is probably better because despite his flaws he is less likely to work in spots that he has no clue how to execute properly.

 

Jack Swagger

 

I actually think I'd put Swaggers SLIGHTLY ahead of HHH with the minor qualification that I think it's really a toss up and I may be giving Swagger the benefit of the doubt because his best run is still relatively fresh in my mind. Still that 08 run was a really good mini-HHH 00 with Swagger looking like an elite level wrestler thanks to Christian and Finlay making him look like god on Earth. To be fair Swagger has had some other good matches and has really done well against a wide variety of guys. What he lacks are the intangibles in the ring, and a consistency to his game. Still he has been an apt passenger if nothing else.

 

Ezekiel Jackson

 

Big Zeke is actually a solid big man worker and has potential but I feel weird rating him above HHH only because HHH has been more battle tested and has at least scored a few times in big time settings.

[El-P]

Rob Van Dam

 

I have condemned RVD as Carot Top many times, but prior to that period he could be really awesome at times. The Sabu matches fucking suck in hindsight, but I really liked his matches with Scorp, his mach with Furnas and his match with Jericho. Matches that were built around his big bumping tend to be awesome as he is great at that. He decided to go the route of shit prop comedy in excessively long matches, but at least the props weren't sledgehammers and stephanie mcmahon slaps. In the WWE RVD had moments and periods not unlike HHH and that is ultimately enough to put him above HHH in my calculus.

I was gonna ask about RVD. To me, RVD is a shitty worker who could have really good matches in two occurences :

 

_facing a guy who could get into his little game of awkward spotfest : Sabu (in 2000, not in 96), Jerry Lynn (the best at it since he had this great quickness, execution and vista which allow him to play along RVD's silly game), Tracy Smothers (great old-school worker who couldn't do the great spots but rolled around them and built a superb match for RVD)

_facing a guy who could beat the shit out of him, even if he's not necesseraly good (Doug Furnas, Balls Mahoney)

 

When you get out of these schemes, RVD can't have a good match to save his life. To me HHH, as much as I find him dull and limited, is much more solid than this. As a worker I would trust HHH to lead a simple, not too long, good solid match, and not get hurt in the process. RVD is out of control and can't do anything outside of his routine. He's also the responsible for the "million counters opening sequences" crap that has spread (way before the Lynn matches). I enjoyed the best RVD matches better, obviously, and the bad matches annoy me as much as HHH's, but I would put HHH above him solely because he's more solid. Kinda the same case as Mike Awesome (although Awesome is a whole lot better than RVD).

[Victator]

Even post-crow Sting would surprise you with matches and performances where he was working above what the traditional conception of him was.

Uh. When? Because I don't think I've ever seen such a dramatic before/after contrast in ring skills as there was with Sting after his gimmick change. Most of the time he looked like he'd completely given up and was just running through the motions. (Especially memorable was his godawful performance at Halloween Havoc '98, when he dragged the worst match I've ever seen from Bret Hart.) Every once in a while he'd seem to wake up and have a better-than-expected match with random folks like DDP or Sid, but mostly it's like it wasn't even the same guy. Oddly, it seems like he tries harder in TNA than he did in late-90s WCW, but by then his body was shot and you could tell that he couldn't do the stuff he wanted to anymore.

Sting had some really good matches in 1999 (albeit, to me, surprisingly). v DDP 4/26 smokes any other WCW match from 99 through to the end. 9/20 v Benoit rocks, and 4/12 v Flair felt like Sting had never changed from the late 80s. I'm not going to touch on the HHH stuff, but yeah, I went through some 99 WCW recently and Sting stuck out to me as a "holy shit he isn't completely sucking like I expected but is actually pretty damn good" wrestler during the period.

 

Sting was only kinda bad his first two matches back. By the summer he was not back to old form but he was trying his best and having the occasional good showing.

 

By 99 he was pretty consistent with the DDP match and the Goldberg Slamboree match.

[Marty]

Thanks Dylan. And yeah, I didn't bother throwing Bubba Ray in there because there's little doubt in my mind he smokes HHH.