Guys who should never turn

[med2089]

I just ran through the board a little bit to make sure this thread was never started, as it's something I thought of yesterday while at work and thought it would be interesting conversation.

 

Over the years, there have been guys like Ricky Steamboat, who were career babyfaces and, looking back, if they had ever turned, wouldn't have worked as a heel because it didn't fit their persona or style. Looking at today's landscape, what workers are the type that should never turn, as working from the other side wouldn't fit for them, based on personality or style?

 

My examples in this case are all heels - most notably, Wade Barrett and The Miz. Those two are the type who are perfect in their roles (maybe not their placement on the card, depending on how you feel about Miz) and would not pan out well as faces IMO.

 

I guess this could also be expanded to talk about guys who didn't turn in the past, or did turn but it didn't fit for them.

[Loss]

Some would argue John Cena fits this bill. Yes, he gets booed by a sizable portion of the audience, but turning would just change the dynamic -- the people who cheer him now would boo him, and those who boo him would cheer him. He's still polarizing. He is exactly who those who like him need him to be, and exactly who those who don't like him need him to be.

 

Cena will never get a universal crowd reaction, which is part of his appeal. Watching John Cena matches is not a spectator sport. The audience is usually a character. With most of the other big names in WWE, if they're able to get the crowd that invested in a main event, they're basically starting from scratch. Cena has a built-in advantage in terms of people caring about him (whether it's love or hate) that somehow, despite WWE never really using him properly, hasn't gone away.

 

That said, if he did turn heel, I would expect it to be great and I think it will likely happen at some point. I think they overlearned the Austin lesson, which is why it hasn't happened sooner. But I can see the logic for having him finish his career without ever turning.

[flyonthewall2983]

Turning Sting heel at ANY point is just wrong.

[smitlick]

Well turning Steen at this point is really hard because hes super over with the ROH crowd...

 

Brodie Lee for me is one. Heel all the way.

[goc]

That said, if he did turn heel, I would expect it to be great and I think it will likely happen at some point. I think they overlearned the Austin lesson, which is why it hasn't happened sooner. But I can see the logic for having him finish his career without ever turning.

This is actually a really good point I haven't really heard of before when people talk about John Cena turning heel. No doubt that Austin turning heel was terrible for business. Even if there wasn't much for a babyface Austin to do at that point, turning him heel at the same time that The Rock was leaving was awful timing. I think for them to turn John Cena heel they are going to need a babyface that can really step up to be the top babyface and work against him. And they don't have one. Punk isn't a compelling enough babyface, ditto Orton, and after that who is there? Sheamus?

[rzombie1988]

Some would argue John Cena fits this bill. Yes, he gets booed by a sizable portion of the audience, but turning would just change the dynamic -- the people who cheer him now would boo him, and those who boo him would cheer him. He's still polarizing. He is exactly who those who like him need him to be, and exactly who those who don't like him need him to be.

 

Cena will never get a universal crowd reaction, which is part of his appeal. Watching John Cena matches is not a spectator sport. The audience is usually a character. With most of the other big names in WWE, if they're able to get the crowd that invested in a main event, they're basically starting from scratch. Cena has a built-in advantage in terms of people caring about him (whether it's love or hate) that somehow, despite WWE never really using him properly, hasn't gone away.

 

That said, if he did turn heel, I would expect it to be great and I think it will likely happen at some point. I think they overlearned the Austin lesson, which is why it hasn't happened sooner. But I can see the logic for having him finish his career without ever turning.

Cena could get a unanonimous crowd reaction if he followed a few steps:

1) Tighten up his moves - It's not even his wrestling ability, which is debatable. It's how he performs his moves. I can count on one hand the number of times he has correctly applied the STF in the last 9 years.

2) No more comedy promos - Cena is always so much better when he is not reading rehearsed lines. He was so over before when he used to be able to go out and do his own raps.

3) Less superman style comebacks - Some of his comebacks come across really lame and turn people off. I think Cena losing to Rock was probably a good thing as it finally showed some weakness.

 

Cena did have a pretty unanimous crowd reaction when he was rising to the top, which is exactly how he got there. The problem is the second he got to the top, WWE stopped letting him do everything he did to get there and turned him into generic babyface #3000(see Randy Orton's original face turn for more examples).

[Loss]

If all it took was becoming a better wrestler to get the crowd solidly behind him, that would have happened years ago. After wars with Michaels, Umaga, Punk, Rock, Jericho and Edge that have all produced good matches (and probably others too), the label on him as not being very good should have been long gone by now.

 

Most casual fans don't care about that stuff. They boo him because:

 

(a) He's not Steve Austin or The Rock

( They think he's inauthentic

[Matt D]

©they don't like his pants.

[Negro Suave]

Well turning Steen at this point is really hard because hes super over with the ROH crowd...

 

Brodie Lee for me is one. Heel all the way.

If I could find the tape... there is a match between me and Brodie Lee where he had to work face. It happened up in Booton and small crowd so he went around the ring and shook everyones hand and basically played an 80's baby face... it was quite hillarious

[med2089]

See, Cena's situation is so unique that it's hard to say if he'll ever turn. Part of me really wants to buy into the "Cena's refusal to turn is a turn" theory, but I'm not sure I can believe WWE is smart enough to do that.

[Loss]

I think it's more that they have in one guy both the supreme sinner and supreme saint. To the people who boo him now, he's already a heel, so a traditional turn would just alienate those who have kept the faith. Then, the question is if they would generate enough excitement for those who hate him already to make it worthwhile.

 

I think Cena turning heel is their trump card, and they're hanging on to it as long as possible. Whenever they play it, I think it will work, but I understand them not wanting to take that leap until they have a red hot babyface to go against him. Cena against Rey, Punk, Orton, Zach Ryder and whoever else would all be fun programs, but for an angle that big, you almost need something bigger than just a fun feud that would produce good matches and a fresh dynamic. You kinda want something more significant and landscape changing than just a few fresh feuds.

 

You'll never go broke betting against WWE playing something out to its full potential, but they may be smarter than we give them credit for in how they are using Cena now. If they really hate it so much when he's booed, why is he almost always programmed against other babyfaces, hometown heroes, returning stars and "cool" heels?

[med2089]

You'll never go broke betting against WWE playing something out to its full potential, but they may be smarter than we give them credit for in how they are using Cena now. If they really hate it so much when he's booed, why is he almost always programmed against other babyfaces, hometown heroes, returning stars and "cool" heels?

That's an incredibly valid point. Looking back at his past year, it's mostly been against guys like Punk, Rock, Truth (who had a short run as a heel that was pretty hot before he turned himself back kind of organically), and now Lesnar. It's worked to keep that split dynamic, but then one has to question if it'll fall flat if he does eventually turn because of those programs.

[JerryvonKramer]

Two examples from the 80s that immediately spring to mind are Rude and DiBiase. Did Rude ever actually work face anywhere as an active worker?

 

DiBiase, for me, is one of the blandest faces ever ever but one of all-time great heels (both MidSouth and WWF). He should never have worked face, even if it meant losing the piledriver angle and that title match.

 

Greg Valentine is another guy who should never have worked face.

 

I also think Kurt Angle should never have worked face.

 

For the other way around, hard to look past Steamer and Sting. Cena is also a good shout I think.

[jdw]

Well turning Steen at this point is really hard because hes super over with the ROH crowd...

Steen last year was interesting in PWG. He was over like snot as an ass kicker even against face such as Davey, Eddie, Pac, etc. But against Generico at BOLA, the crowd was clearly into Generico.

 

John

[rzombie1988]

If all it took was becoming a better wrestler to get the crowd solidly behind him, that would have happened years ago. After wars with Michaels, Umaga, Punk, Rock, Jericho and Edge that have all produced good matches (and probably others too), the label on him as not being very good should have been long gone by now.

 

Most casual fans don't care about that stuff. They boo him because:

 

(a) He's not Steve Austin or The Rock

( They think he's inauthentic

And not being able to apply his moves correctly and doing WWE scripts proves point B. Thank you and good night.

[Jingus]

I also think Kurt Angle should never have worked face.

Whoa, hey, let's not forget Summerslam 2001. Austin was the driving force of that match, but it's not like Angle was just there. He's a perfectly decent fiery never-say-die babyface.

[Dylan Waco]

I really think they may have been tentatively planning to turn Cena full blown heel between last Summer and last Fall but Rey going down with injury scared them off as they didn't want to lose both their merchandising cash cows at once.

 

Speaking of which Rey is a guy who should never, ever, ever, ever, ever be a heel. I literally can't think of a guy who fits the bill better as a guy who should be a career face than Rey. Not even Steamboat.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tito Santana and Steve Grey spring to mind.

[KrisZ]

The Cena dynamic is the fans want him to turn but him not wanting to makes him a bigger heel than he would be if he turned.

[smitlick]

Well turning Steen at this point is really hard because hes super over with the ROH crowd...

Steen last year was interesting in PWG. He was over like snot as an ass kicker even against face such as Davey, Eddie, Pac, etc. But against Generico at BOLA, the crowd was clearly into Generico.

 

John

 

Yeah but they never really hated him. Just love Generico.

[S.L.L.]

If all it took was becoming a better wrestler to get the crowd solidly behind him, that would have happened years ago. After wars with Michaels, Umaga, Punk, Rock, Jericho and Edge that have all produced good matches (and probably others too), the label on him as not being very good should have been long gone by now.

 

Most casual fans don't care about that stuff. They boo him because:

 

(a) He's not Steve Austin or The Rock

( They think he's inauthentic

These are both true to be sure....

 

©they don't like his pants.

...as is this, but more than anything else, I think it really boils down to one issue:

 

They weren't told to like him.

 

Cena might be the least protected company ace in wrestling history, maybe not in terms of wins and losses, but in terms of how his character is presented by the company.

 

Is he inauthentic? Perhaps. But anybody in wrestling can have authenticity. That's a very mediocre commodity. Every carny fraud who's slunk through this business is capable of possessing at least some degree of perceived authenticity. If you compare John Cena to more than a few of the men he's been booed against, I have a very hard time saying he's really less authentic than any of them, and they were cheered over him regardless. But they have one thing he hasn't got: a seal of approval. Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universitartus Committiartum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon John Cena the Official Nintendo Seal of Quality.

 

 

The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side.

Crisis averted.

 

As to whether or not he should be turned heel, they're certainly in a place right now where they can get away with doing it without causing much long term damage, and it definitely seems like an angle that could spark fan interest in the short term, but the company is so colossally fucked on the most fundamental creative levels, I can't imagine it would mean much after a month or so. And frankly, if they were to unfuck themselves, I think there's more value in an angle where Cena, Rock, and Punk were all forced to put their differences aside - and I mean really put their differences aside instead of just teaming while still hating each other - to combat a larger heel threat. Ever since Money in the Bank, part of me has wondered if there might be some money in booking Cena and Punk as the Riggs and Murtaugh of WWE. Rock seems like a weird Leo Getz, but I think we can deviate from the formula for him.

 

But really, to the point of this thread, my general feeling is that you shouldn't turn a wrestler unless you know you can get a clear benefit from a wrestler in that role that you can't get in his current role, and that that benefit is worth sacrificing whatever you might still be getting out of the wrestler in his current role. I was strongly opposed to turning Cena for a long time because I didn't think the benefits of a turn were worth sacrificing your top drawing face. Now, I don't really have a problem with it, but I still don't see it as an especially useful option, nor do I see it as something that would be especially entertaining (the romanticism that people have for Cena's heel run always struck me as odd, as does the desire to take a guy who's offense we all agree is his in-ring weak point and put him in a position where he'll spend most of his matches on offense). It really fails to address the bigger problems in the company, and until that happens, this all just feels pointless.

[Bob Morris]

SLL brings up a valid point about Cena's offense just not making for a good heel. Heels control the match, after all, so if you don't have enough or the right type of offense to allow you to control the match, it's going to be harder to keep people drawn into the match.

 

That's not to say Cena can't keep people drawn into a match -- his strengths as a worker make him better as a face than a heel.

 

The problem with Cena's authenticity isn't his offense, though, but his character. WWE seems to want him to be "1980s Hulk Hogan with an edge" but can never book him properly to make that work, or force him to read a lot of scripted material instead of letting him come up with stuff on his own. And in the latter case, I don't think I'd ever have to worry about Cena going into business for himself in his promos, because everything about him indicates he's generally unselfish.

 

Compare that to Austin, who was definitely authentic in terms of character during his peak run, and to Rock, who initially tried to be "golden age of comics Superman" when that didn't work, then became the cocky, trash-talking athlete, which was an authentic character for his heel run... but as is the case with some trash-talking athletes, people decide they really do like the guy and thus he can be just as authentic as a face.

 

Anyway, to address the topic... Cena really works best as a face because that's how he is able to do his best in-ring work, given his strengths as a worker. He does have the personality that can make him a face that can work on multiple levels, but he isn't getting the proper booking and direction from WWE Creative.

 

Oh, and as for Rey Misterio Jr., he was somewhat pushed as a heel in Russo-era WCW and it never worked. Russo could have truly been the greatest booker ever and he still wouldn't have been able to make Rey work as a heel. Too much about Rey's character and wrestling style screams "underdog" and fans just aren't going to boo an underdog.

[NintendoLogic]

Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universitartus Committiartum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon John Cena the Official Nintendo Seal of Quality.

Wait, what? I never agreed to this.

 

Anyway, the Cena backlash began when he got moved to Raw and his sloppiness was a lot more difficult to conceal. 2005 Cena really was a limited worker and was awkward as the company ace working 15-20 minute main event PPV matches. Granted, Batista never faced a similar backlash despite being even more limited. But he was also a guy with a badass aura who wore nice suits and beat the Cerebral Assassin at his own game. By contrast, a jorts-wearing white rapper just screams "midcard gimmick act." And let's be honest, Cena just plain looks like a dork.

[ohtani's jacket]

Cena is a Marky Mark wannabee, but it was cool when he got potatoed on RAW.

[Kostka]

I like Loss' post about Cena being the perfect protagonist that he needs to be for the people who love him, while at the same time, being the perfect ANtagonist that he needs to be for the people that hate him. It's this weird middle ground character that never really needs to change, because the reactions to him never change. The Punk match last year in Chi-town and the Rock match most recently in Miami support the fact that this "dynamic" is still going strong and doesn't seem to show signs of a shelf life. Has there ever been a character in wrestling history like this? I know that there's been babyfaces that have been booed, but I can't think of any other top faces where the company banked on those booes and played to them. Dropping Hogan/Jake Roberts because Roberts was getting face chants never would have happened if this happened now and Roberts was working Cena instead, for example.