Tonight's RAW

[Matt D]

Also, I buy Miss Piggy more a a three dimensional character and a real living entity than Michael Cole.

[S.L.L.]

I'm not sure it truly was "the next week", and I'm not sure the stuff on the WM8 undercard was really "Hahaha, wrestling is so fake", but if it was, that's not really any better just because it happened a long time ago.

It's better because it was more effective. And as far as the Memphis stuff goes, it wasn't "next week", but it wasn't spaced out any further than this show was from the episode the Muppets hosted.

 

Anyway, there are flaws in WWE's presentation that make it hard for fans to emotionally invest in serious angles. I don't see how anyone can dispute that point. Tonight is proof of that, but there are plenty of other examples. I'm just trying to have a conversation about what in their presentation makes stuff like this not have great heat. I don't think you can blame it all on the death of kayfabe.

I don't think you can blame any of it on the death of kayfabe, actually. I think you can blame some of it on wrestling's failure to cope appropriately with the death of kayfabe. I think the fact that they treat kayfabe like Norman Bates treated his mother - obviously dead and secreted away, but still there and disturbingly often still treated like it was alive - is a big problem. But the death of kayfabe hasn't hurt any other medium of fiction. There's no real reason it should hurt wrestling.

 

I actually think you and Matt are both right in a respect. Wrestling has always been a three-ring circus, yes, but it's still three rings under one tent. When you go to the circus, you'll get a lot of different stuff that will generate a wide variety of emotions in you, but it will all be stuff you expect to see at the circus. It will fit within the basic circus "theme".

 

Vince McMahon has been called a modern day P.T. Barnum by some, but Barnum wouldn't be caught dead running a circus as boring as modern WWE, and I say that in spite of the fact that I have had and (to a lesser degree) continue to have a lot of good things to say about the acts being run in that circus. But while what's going in the individual rings can be interesting, the unifying whole is not. I'm not even sure it's fair to say it's bad, because that would imply some kind of emotional connection. It's more like it doesn't exist, and the only reason the whole thing continues to function is the laws of inertia. And who can get excited about that?

 

As far as the crowd reaction to the Punk/Lawler angle, I do want to say this. If you listened to my appearance on Victator's podcast after Punk first turned heel, you might remember that I tried to support my claims that it wouldn't work by pointing to responses to an article about it on WWE's website. I figured if I really wanted to know what the WWE Universe thought, looking at the elaborate social networking project they've set up might be a better indicator than talking to people on this board. Not sure if it would be a 100% accurate one, but I figured a place where people were non-ironically referring to The Big Show as "The Big Sellout" probably was a better representation of the average fan than any of us were. Now, with six exceptions out of 150-something, the reactions to Punk's turn all ranged from ambivalence and uncertainty to out-and-out support of Punk. And the weeks that followed have definitely reflected that attitude from the fans - they've either continued cheering him, or felt that they shouldn't cheer him but didn't want to boo him and thus responded with nothing.

 

So since we have another question about fan response, I've gone back to WWE.com to see how the WWE Universe feels about this. And their reaction - almost universally - is that Punk went too far, and that they'll be booing him from here on out, even against Cena. What do I make of this? I don't know yet. This is an experiment for me, and it's far from over. I've hazarded a few guesses as to why the live crowd reacted the way they did, and none of them really make sense to me. I mean, the tone thing doesn't help, but....

 

Mark Henry didn't seem to have too much trouble getting over as a heel last year.

....so it can't just be that. I'd say I'm interested in how the crowd will react a week from now, but....

 

RAW is in Chicago next week.

....so the crowd's reaction to Punk is going to be completely different than it would be otherwise, and things might change drastically.

 

Wait, what am I saying? It's current WWE. Nothing changes drastically.

 

I guess my point, if I even have one anymore, is that it's probably too soon to chalk last night's angle up as a failure, and that it may still help solidify Punk as a heel in the long run, though that's not a lock because, in the long run, WWE will probably stop caring again.

[kjh]

Part of the problem was coming at the end of a three hour show and following an obviously fake retirement angle, which was pushed as a bigger deal than Punk's match with Lawler.

[Coffey]

Last night, while watching with two friends, I just realized that the biggest problem with WWE is that nothing matters. The wrestlers don't matter, the wins/losses don't matter, the titles don't matter, the matches don't matter. None of it has any direction & there aren't any consequences. It's just a bunch of un-over guys, with no direction, killing time.

 

Let's say The Miz wins that match against John Cena as an example. Michael Cole would make a comment about "big upset by The Miz!" and then we go backstage to another vignette and it's already forgotten. Or the tag match that the babyfaces won with a Brogue Kick. Instead, Ziggler wins with a Zig-Zag. It doesn't matter at all. The Miz is the Intercontinental Champion and just can lose clean in the middle & it doesn't matter because no one cares. There's no heat for anyone because all the entire roster does is trade wins back-and-forth.

[Matt D]

Brackets and Rankings. why the hell not?

[NintendoLogic]

Looking back at recent history, the Nexus attack on John Cena was at the end of an episode that contained, among other things, a match with Khali and Hornswoggle as a tag team, a dance contest between Santino Marella and Vladimir Kozlov, and a bunch of backstage silliness with the cast of the A-Team movie. It didn't seem to diminish the impact. If anything, it enhanced it.

[Loss]

So, what would you say is the reason the Punk/Lawler angle didn't get much heat, despite being really well-worked?

[Loss]

I think S.L.L. is right. Just a few weeks ago, he was telling me Punk would struggle to get the desired reaction as a heel, and I argued that his ability to play a great heel would override anything else. So far, that hasn't happened, but last night was the first time they really went all the way in the turn.

 

I don't know that WWE needs to be pain, blues and agony 100% of the time, although I wish it was a darker presentation myself. But I do think it's a lot to ask to expect fans to switch gears so often in what type of presentation WWE is.

 

And also, S.L.L., the erosion of kayfabe has a disproportionately strong impact on WWE because they still keep one foot just barely in. Selena was fired for drinking while doing a straight edge gimmick, for example. Wrestlers are encouraged to live their gimmicks in public. Outside of hip hop (which I'm not sure is quite a "genre of fiction"), does that happen in any other medium?

[Coffey]

So, what would you say is the reason the Punk/Lawler angle didn't get much heat, despite being really well-worked?

If I had to guess I would say it's because no one in 2012 cares about Jerry Lawler. The majority of the people in the crowd are going to be new PG fans and their parents.

 

Granted they don't care about Sin Cara either, so I don't know. I think it's just a case of WWE only making John Cena look like a star & everyone else doesn't matter. C.M. Punk has been the WWE Champion for almost a year now & he's still pretty much just the guy who isn't John Cena. And that's after beating Cena like three times now. He's just always going to be second (or third) fiddle & so is everyone else. They didn't care about Punk/Lawler, they were just waiting for John Cena to show up.

 

...and now it's three hours of waiting until John Cena shows up. Nothing else on the show even matters. It's depressing.

[sek69]

The tweener gimmick just doesn't work anymore. Like SLL said, if you don't make it clear if you're supposed to boo or cheer a guy most of the crowd reacts with nothing.

 

Also I wonder with JR gone does that mean Lawler is the new "beloved figure who gets beat up to cement someone's heel turn" guy?

[NintendoLogic]

So, what would you say is the reason the Punk/Lawler angle didn't get much heat, despite being really well-worked?

The crowd seemed pretty dead all night, especially after HHH's "I'm retiring, but not really" speech.

[Matt D]

that could have been a hot angle in front of a different crowd.

[Bix]

And also, S.L.L., the erosion of kayfabe has a disproportionately strong impact on WWE because they still keep one foot just barely in. Selena was fired for drinking while doing a straight edge gimmick, for example. Wrestlers are encouraged to live their gimmicks in public. Outside of hip hop (which I'm not sure is quite a "genre of fiction"), does that happen in any other medium?

While your overall point is sound, it's worth pointing out that that's not exactly why Serena Deeb was fired. It was that her inability to curb her drinking in public while doing a straight edge gimmick was indicative of a bigger problem. Since she was recently arrested for boating under the influence, that was probably the right call.

 

But back to the original topic. I think that as long as wrestling is presented the way it's always been presented, as a sports show without the credits a sitcom/drama would have, they need to at least maintain the "don't slap me in the face with it" level of kayfabe. Doing media, personal appearances, anti-bullying rallies, etc out of character is fine. But if you're doing a straight edge gimmick, don't drink at the hotel bar after a show. If you just had the blowoff match to your feud, don't go to Burger King together at the train station across the street while the fans are heading home like B.J. Whitmer and Brent Albright did in ROH. And so on.

[S.L.L.]

And also, S.L.L., the erosion of kayfabe has a disproportionately strong impact on WWE because they still keep one foot just barely in. Selena was fired for drinking while doing a straight edge gimmick, for example. Wrestlers are encouraged to live their gimmicks in public. Outside of hip hop (which I'm not sure is quite a "genre of fiction"), does that happen in any other medium?

That's kinda what I meant by the Psycho metaphor. In hindsight, that probably wasn't clear enough. I'm saying that to you and me and all rational people, kayfabe is dead, but to people in the business, a boy's best friend is still his mother, so to speak.

[Strummer]

The debate in this thread over the general feel of WWE reminds me of Foley during his time on the outs with company from late 01 to mid 03. Part of his problem was that he had felt the company had become "too serious" and "dark". Now think about all the ridiculous angles during that time period. I've always wondered how he came to that conclusion. Maybe it's the wrestling bubble but internally the definition of serious wrestling seems to be vastly different than what the hardcores believe.

[kjh]

I think it's just a case of WWE only making John Cena look like a star & everyone else doesn't matter.

Added to the fact that Cena isn't universally beloved.

[sek69]

He's not universally loved, but he's pretty much the only guy who gets any kind of emotional reaction from the crowd. Even if it's a negative one.

[Coffey]

He's not universally loved, but he's pretty much the only guy who gets any kind of emotional reaction from the crowd. Even if it's a negative one.

Yeah, I mean, people are either there to cheer here or boo him, but they're there because of him, since the show is presented as John Cena & Friends. He's also one of the only guys that draws and like half of the top ten merchandise items are his. It's not a coincidence, WWE did it to themselves.

[Loss]

Even if Lawler isn't equally over in every market, he's a smart enough worker with enough tricks up his sleeve that turning around a dead crowd is something that he's probably done hundreds of times in his career. I wouldn't ever write him off. That first "free shot" punch was built up so well and Punk sold it so well, which makes it unfortunate that it didn't get the pop it should have. If the audience has their minds made up who they are going to like/dislike and that cannot change, wrestling becomes much less interesting to watch.

 

Anomaly crowd reactions are nothing new. They've always been a part of wrestling. It just stinks that it happened when they were trying something much closer to my type of wrestling, damnit!

[Johnny Sorrow]

Kane's anger management speech was similar in tone and how it was shot to George Costanza's pitch for the apartment on the Seinfeld episode where he was competing with his tragic story against the survivor of a shipwreck

By the way, that's brilliant and I'm ripping it off. I got my producer for WHATAMANOOVER! working on an audio mash-up of Kane and Costanza.

 

And crowd aside, how cool was it that Punk was yelling "I'M the King of Memphis, Tennessee!!" ? You could totally tell that he was having a blast.

[Coffey]

If the audience has their minds made up who they are going to like/dislike and that cannot change, wrestling becomes much less interesting to watch.

It becomes...fabricated? Because that pretty much sums up WWE as a whole. Nothing feels organic anymore, not even the crowd, sans when they get a really smarky crowd in like Toronto or NYC.

[sek69]

Kane's anger management speech was similar in tone and how it was shot to George Costanza's pitch for the apartment on the Seinfeld episode where he was competing with his tragic story against the survivor of a shipwreck

By the way, that's brilliant and I'm ripping it off. I got my producer for WHATAMANOOVER! working on an audio mash-up of Kane and Costanza.

 

And crowd aside, how cool was it that Punk was yelling "I'M the King of Memphis, Tennessee!!" ? You could totally tell that he was having a blast.

 

 

Another missed announcer opportunity, I think. They mentioned Punk tweeting that he "did it for Andy Kaufman" when he kicked Lawler in the head, and when he sang Andy's song the only mention was Josh pointing out he was complaining about being disrespected but he was doing it himself now.

 

 

(skip to about 0.52 to see the original version)

 

[Frankensteiner]

I wasn't paying too much attention at the time, but didn't the Miz and Cole feuds kind of kill off Lawler to some extent? Miz is sort of a joke in hindsight and I remember the Cole feud dragging on too long. Could be part of the reason why the crowd wasn't really behind Lawler.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Kane's anger management speech was similar in tone and how it was shot to George Costanza's pitch for the apartment on the Seinfeld episode where he was competing with his tragic story against the survivor of a shipwreck

By the way, that's brilliant and I'm ripping it off. I got my producer for WHATAMANOOVER! working on an audio mash-up of Kane and Costanza.

 

And crowd aside, how cool was it that Punk was yelling "I'M the King of Memphis, Tennessee!!" ? You could totally tell that he was having a blast.

 

 

Another missed announcer opportunity, I think. They mentioned Punk tweeting that he "did it for Andy Kaufman" when he kicked Lawler in the head, and when he sang Andy's song the only mention was Josh pointing out he was complaining about being disrespected but he was doing it himself now.

 

 

(skip to about 0.52 to see the original version)

 

 

It's not even just about Andy. I felt like Punk was channeling every old Memphis heel who would declare themselves "the New King". And let's face it, as awesome as it was that Lawler went on about beating Dundee and Dutch... no one in these crowds, or at least only a small percentage, have any idea what he's talking about.

That being said, I personally don't give a shit. Everything about the Lawler/ Punk thing was aimed at guys like me so I'm happy.

[Log]

I loved the Lawler/Punk stuff. Too bad they couldn't have done it when they were in Memphis or even in Louisville or somewhere where King is a big deal still.

 

I do think a lot of the dead crowd was due to being worn out from a long show. I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen more and more in main events for Raw. Three hours is a long time for someone (especially a kid) to be hyped for something.

 

Also, the HHH thing probably killed them a bit. I fast-forwarded through it and it still seemed too long.