Current WWE

[Slasher]

Houston isn't going to have a crowd like Seattle, that was a unique deal. I'm sure the crowd will enthusiastically respond as they tease climbing the ladder and getting the belt.

You haven't been watching Raw past one episode, have you? All evidence points to Houston being a pro Bryan crowd. Yes Seattle was unique as far as how far they went in supporting Daniel Bryan but umm... this isn't really so unique of a crowd compared to others. Just admit Cena came off poorly here as he has in other instances where he used other people to prop himself up. He is no better than Triple H in that aspect.

[Jimmy Redman]

How did he come off poorly? The crowd was shitting on the segment and he saved it. He took their real emotion for Bryan and used it, not to bury Bryan or gloss over it (which i can at least see from the last time he did it when it was "they're chanting for Daniel Bryan because HUNTOR~!") but to put him over, remind people he beat him clean for the belt, say he's the rightful #1 Contender, and bring it all back to the story he was telling about Orton being an undeserving champion. Which Cena will fix on Sunday by winning the belts. And then give Bryan a fair title match. He simultaneously gave the crowd what they wanted, put Bryan over huge and cut a promo on Orton for their PPV match. Everyone wins.

 

What was he supposed to do? Ignore the chants like Hunter and Orton did? I mean I don't blame them, they're heels, but the crowd was killing the segment because they weren't interested. Cena got them interested.

 

In terms of the PPV match, they're not going to be like that. I'm not debating about how over Bryan is, but they were in Seattle. They won't be at TLC. They'll be having a TLC match for the unified world titles. Cena is THE main event worker of his generation. He and Orton have good in-ring chemistry. Even if the crowd gets bored or chants for Bryan, they will be able to turn it around, and people will pop for the finish (as long as its a real finish and not bullshit).

[Slasher]

How did he come off poorly? The crowd was shitting on the segment and he saved it. He took their real emotion for Bryan and used it, not to bury Bryan or gloss over it (which i can at least see from the last time he did it when it was "they're chanting for Daniel Bryan because HUNTOR~!") but to put him over, remind people he beat him clean for the belt, say he's the rightful #1 Contender, and bring it all back to the story he was telling about Orton being an undeserving champion. Which Cena will fix on Sunday by winning the belts. And then give Bryan a fair title match. He simultaneously gave the crowd what they wanted, put Bryan over huge and cut a promo on Orton for their PPV match. Everyone wins.

 

What was he supposed to do? Ignore the chants like Hunter and Orton did? I mean I don't blame them, they're heels, but the crowd was killing the segment because they weren't interested. Cena got them interested.

 

In terms of the PPV match, they're not going to be like that. I'm not debating about how over Bryan is, but they were in Seattle. They won't be at TLC. They'll be having a TLC match for the unified world titles. Cena is THE main event worker of his generation. He and Orton have good in-ring chemistry. Even if the crowd gets bored or chants for Bryan, they will be able to turn it around, and people will pop for the finish (as long as its a real finish and not bullshit).

I am sorry, I have to roll my eyes at this response. It was completely unnecessary for Cena to acknowledge what the Seattle crowd wanted. It was one night. He was better off focusing on the real task at hand, which is selling the TLC match. What Cena did was sell Royal Rumble... which is another month away. Orton and Triple H came across to me as more professional in the segment, even if they were out of touch. They portrayed themselves as not easily swayed by reactions. Cena came across as a puppy dog desperate for affection that he would go to great lengths siphoning any possible positive reactions onto himself. It was a bush league move and something beneath a guy of his stature. But it is no wonder Cena is constantly having to fight a war with fans on his reactions with what he does. The booking is 50% responsible for fostering this kind of thing for Cena but he himself is 50% responsible as well. I understand having to run as soon as possible to defend the guy because he is definitely a guy who understands how wrestling works, but this is something he would have been better off not doing if he wanted to be accepted completely.

[Jimmy Redman]

He did sell the TLC match. He used Bryan's plight to contrast against Orton's position as the golden child who has been gifted the title reign by the Authority. Cena is going to make the world right by beating Orton for the belts, being a fighting champion and giving Bryan his rightful shot.

 

I'd understand you if Cena had completely ignored what he was supposed to be doing to milk the Bryan thing, or if he had dismissed Bryan in an insincere way (like I said, the last time where he tried to say "they're chanting for Bryan because you're such a big bully heel Triple H, so lets get back to the topic at hand" was lame), but he didn't do either. He acknowledged Bryan in a way that put him over, AND still used it to further the existing story with Orton in a natural way.

 

I mean, do you really think they weren't ready for that? They were clearly flustered by the crowd being SO loud and also by them ignoring the promos, but they're not stupid, they were in Seattle. They had Bryan in the ring. He was a key part of the closing brawl and clearly still part of the big picture. If they were chanting their heads off for, say, Jack Swagger, you think Cena would have promised him a title shot? Of course not. But Bryan is part of the angle. It made sense to incorporate him.

 

The idea that Cena made himself look bad or turned people off by putting over the crowd favourite and getting a crowd that was chanting "boring" and shitting on a segment to become unglued and get them completely interested in what was going on is laughable.

[Slasher]

I didn't say he turned people off. Like I said, he completely pandered to them. Of course they would eat it up. I am saying it was not needed and it made the WWE's job harder selling the show that is coming up in a week. And whatever you want to believe, he WAS completely insincere. As far as being the made man he is, secure in the knowledge he will never be shuffled down the card for the guy everyone is chanting their heads off for. Lets say he wins the unified belts and somehow Triple H, who has showed zero willingness to give Bryan a fair shake, allows for Bryan to challenge Cena at the Rumble. What in the world should we expect? Triple H didn't allow the Summerslam result to stand. So logically we expect Cena to beat Bryan or any other outcome to be nullified, again. Then you look back to this show, and it makes it all worse. Cena basically whored out knowing he is bulletproof. Gee what a great guy!

[Jimmy Redman]

How did he make selling the PPV harder? That segment coming off was the only thing they have done to get me, and from reading around a lot of other people too, actually interested in seeing the match. A hot go home segment is a winner.

 

I get that you think he was pandering or wouldn't like it on a personal level, but I don't see any argument that Cena did a bad thing for the company or the PPV build.

[Slasher]

Everything else in that segment was great. Cena ripping Orton apart in his promo about being an entitled brat, the pullapart brawl that got Punk, Bryan, Hunter, HBK, and Stephanie, Cena standing tall with the Authority...those things sold me on the PPV. It was great. Cena pulling Bryan out of the crowd in the ring and insincerely giving him props as a guy who worked hard for he got... the thing is Cena is closer to Orton than he realizes. Maybe he is first in, last out. Maybe he works his butt off going around the world granting wishes and being a good ambassador for the company. But make no mistake, he was tabbed from the start as one of the golden boys. He debuted with that memorable angle wrestling Angle. He received title shots not even a year into his WWE stint. He has NOTHING in common with Bryan except sticking his dick in the same looking woman. He is not the guy to pull at the heartstrings of the oppressed.

[Matt D]

I didn't say he turned people off. Like I said, he completely pandered to them. Of course they would eat it up. I am saying it was not needed and it made the WWE's job harder selling the show that is coming up in a week. And whatever you want to believe, he WAS completely insincere. As far as being the made man he is, secure in the knowledge he will never be shuffled down the card for the guy everyone is chanting their heads off for. Lets say he wins the unified belts and somehow Triple H, who has showed zero willingness to give Bryan a fair shake, allows for Bryan to challenge Cena at the Rumble. What in the world should we expect? Triple H didn't allow the Summerslam result to stand. So logically we expect Cena to beat Bryan or any other outcome to be nullified, again. Then you look back to this show, and it makes it all worse. Cena basically whored out knowing he is bulletproof. Gee what a great guy!

Well, this time they'd be ready for Hunter. He can only turn heel once. He can't turn Heeler. You obviously feel very strongly about this but I think that there's at least an argument the other way and you're not meeting anyone half way on it.

[Slasher]

I didn't say he turned people off. Like I said, he completely pandered to them. Of course they would eat it up. I am saying it was not needed and it made the WWE's job harder selling the show that is coming up in a week. And whatever you want to believe, he WAS completely insincere. As far as being the made man he is, secure in the knowledge he will never be shuffled down the card for the guy everyone is chanting their heads off for. Lets say he wins the unified belts and somehow Triple H, who has showed zero willingness to give Bryan a fair shake, allows for Bryan to challenge Cena at the Rumble. What in the world should we expect? Triple H didn't allow the Summerslam result to stand. So logically we expect Cena to beat Bryan or any other outcome to be nullified, again. Then you look back to this show, and it makes it all worse. Cena basically whored out knowing he is bulletproof. Gee what a great guy!

Well, this time they'd be ready for Hunter. He can only turn heel once. He can't turn Heeler. You obviously feel very strongly about this but I think that there's at least an argument the other way and you're not meeting anyone half way on it.

 

That is true. People know what to expect. I am willing to meet people halfway but that also requires people meeting me halfway also. I do find it silly that I am obviously coming on a bit strong with this stance. I like John Cena a lot. I give him a lot of props for the work he has done throughout the near decade he has been on top. I think he is one of the smartest workers they have in WWE and that he is a guy who deserves everything that has been handed to him. I just wish he did not do this ONE annoying thing of which he takes the hot babyface and uses him as a tool to get cheers. He did it with Zack Ryder, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, The Rock, Daniel Bryan and it goes on. It, to me, is the John Cena version of Triple H coming out to an Eugene segment and playing up the insincere hero worship angle only because Eugene is the hot hand at the moment. I mean, no one buys that Nick Dinsmore, with all his 1980s callbacks, would really rate Hunter his #1 wrestler. It was clearly a play on Triple H's part to leech off the heat. I don't think John Cena sits in creative meetings going "How can we bond this popularity of Bryan Danielson to my character?" or anything insidious like that. But it is an easy shortcut that the one guy in the company who doesn't need it..takes.

[Steven]

the thing is Cena is closer to Orton than he realizes. Maybe he is first in, last out. Maybe he works his butt off going around the world granting wishes and being a good ambassador for the company. But make no mistake, he was tabbed from the start as one of the golden boys.

No, he wasn't. They did think he had a lot of potential, but they were actually on the fence about letting him go before the rap gimmick. Fuck, he was doing clean jobs to Reverend D'Von before he turned heel and even then he was dropping falls to perennial midcarders Billy Kidman and post-2000 Rikishi. He had a strong start with Angle and Jericho (who was supposed to beat him before Jericho vetoed it so Cena could get the win), but he is a guy who definitely earned his spot.

 

And no one is meeting you half way because the point you're making isn't really worth it, sorry. He only called an audible because the crowd was shitting on the segment. If the crowd wasn't, Bryan wouldn't have been pulled in. He wasn't trying to leech off of Bryan, he was just trying to redirect the heat into the promo so it didn't die a painful death.

[Jimmy Redman]

The thing about Cena being closer to Orton than Bryan may be true enough in real life, but isn't really true in kayfabe. In kayfabe Cena thinks of himself as a working man, he's a good guy who doesn't cheat or take shortcuts, and works harder than everyone else in the biz. Orton is the 2nd gen golden boy who was hand picked by Hunter and Steph to be their Corporate Champion and given all of the advantages of the Authority's backing. That is the narrative.

 

Saying Cena is in the same privileged position is missing the point, because that's not how they are portrayed on TV.

 

As an aside, I'd love to hear how Cena apparently leeched off The Rock for babyface heat. Cena heeled himself against the Rock at every opportunity.

[Slasher]

The thing about Cena being closer to Orton than Bryan may be true enough in real life, but isn't really true in kayfabe. In kayfabe Cena thinks of himself as a working man, he's a good guy who doesn't cheat or take shortcuts, and works harder than everyone else in the biz. Orton is the 2nd gen golden boy who was hand picked by Hunter and Steph to be their Corporate Champion and given all of the advantages of the Authority's backing. That is the narrative.

 

Saying Cena is in the same privileged position is missing the point, because that's not how they are portrayed on TV.

 

As an aside, I'd love to hear how Cena apparently leeched off The Rock for babyface heat. Cena heeled himself against the Rock at every opportunity.

I am tired of the argument because obviously I must be wrong if I am the only guy who feels this way but I just want to respond to this one more time-

 

This is a company that has opened up itself to social media and getting fans more involved in the backstage aspect, even if it is still worked. In the realm of what the story is being told, you are correct that they portray Cena as this West Newbury kid who grew up loving wrestling and busting his ass to get where he is. But logic would follow that if people scratched just a little deeper under that superficial layer, people would notice how Cena has typically been a protected asset (yes yes I know, he has been booked poorly compared to other WWE aces, but bear with me). People are not stupid. They see it is Cena who comes to a Zack Ryder's aid. It is Cena who stops the evil menace. He is the guy who has been put in the position typical of someone they favored...like Orton was. Now I never claimed Cena doesn't deserve what he has because he does. Hell I watched Sportsnation the two days Cena co-hosted and I always turn ESPN off after Numbers Never Lie, the show preceding it. Maybe you guys see the value in him calling an audible and "saving" the segment by kissing Bryan's ass in front of the Washington faithfuls. I personally don't. I think the brawl would have turned it around regardless and it sells the show better as it adds the intrigue of Cena and Orton's allegiance to the Authority. That is clearly just me, though, apparently.

 

As for the Rock thing, maybe I imagined it, but I seem to remember Cena kissing the Rock's ass before the story called for the "hate" to be brought in the angle. He wasn't a good example anyways as yes, he heeled it up also, so strike that.

[Jimmy Redman]

I understand that you didn't like it and that's valid, and I also get you thinking that if you see a pattern of Cena buddying up to whoever is over. But i think taking this specific instance, on its own, Cena did a great job of using the crowd's reaction in a way that actually built his PPV match without damaging Bryan and got the crowd into a conversation that they were chanting "boring" at moments before. Even if he was using him, technically, that use was effective for the segment.

[Slasher]

I understand that you didn't like it and that's valid, and I also get you thinking that if you see a pattern of Cena buddying up to whoever is over. But i think taking this specific instance, on its own, Cena did a great job of using the crowd's reaction in a way that actually built his PPV match without damaging Bryan and got the crowd into a conversation that they were chanting "boring" at moments before. Even if he was using him, technically, that use was effective for the segment.

Fair enough. I will accept that premise.

[Sidebottom]

Last night I actually dreamt about Daniel Bryan. And he had a fake beard.

A Santa slip it would seem.

[jdw]

 

I think we have Bix's next sig.file gif.

 

Anyway... what segment is this from? Is there a youtube link that I can watch to get the context of why everyone is laughing at how stupid Steph is?

[jdw]

Check... got it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti7irf1SCrI

 

Thanks, BBscout.

[Mini Bennett]

Why does Slasher care if Cena was or wasn't being genuine towards Bryan last monday? This feels like a "wrestling isn't real" moment.

[Slasher]

Why does Slasher care if Cena was or wasn't being genuine towards Bryan last monday? This feels like a "wrestling isn't real" moment.

So late to the party you showed up when the clean up has already been completed, eh? It isn't so much that I cared. I just disagreed that it was something that showed Cena "got it", as evident by my quoting that post mentioning it. We then hashed it out and came to a simple conclusion. Issue ended. Thanks though for the comparison to the oft mocked guy.

[Matt D]

A point that Bix made that I agree with is that the ending segment, while doing a fine job building up Cena vs Orton, with even the pandering helping, made the handicap matches with Bryan and Punk feel like afterthoughts.

[cm funk]

The two handicapped matches are so strange.....

 

I have an idea/theory about what they might do:

 

Bryan vs. The Wyatts goes on first. Punk gets involved helping Bryan. The Shield run in and attack Punk. One of the various authority figures makes it a 2 on 6 handicap match (this is a booking trope they love)

 

They teased a brawl between the Wyatts and Shield before Survivor Series. There's miscommunication between the two groups allowing Bryan/Punk to score the upset. Brawl between the trios after the match, and you've got your program between the two going forward with Bryan and Punk free to focus towards Rumble/WM Season. Could also play into the Reigns turn.

 

Thoughts?

[El-P]

The two handicapped matches are so strange.....

Zach Gowen is working twice at the PPV ?

[Slasher]

The two handicapped matches are so strange.....

 

I have an idea/theory about what they might do:

 

Bryan vs. The Wyatts goes on first. Punk gets involved helping Bryan. The Shield run in and attack Punk. One of the various authority figures makes it a 2 on 6 handicap match (this is a booking trope they love)

 

They teased a brawl between the Wyatts and Shield before Survivor Series. There's miscommunication between the two groups allowing Bryan/Punk to score the upset. Brawl between the trios after the match, and you've got your program between the two going forward with Bryan and Punk free to focus towards Rumble/WM Season. Could also play into the Reigns turn.

 

Thoughts?

 

I am thinking the stories they have started- Bray Wyatt recruiting Daniel Bryan, Shield dissension will play into these two matches. I think one of the two handicapped will lose and the other will win when something happens. If I had to guess, it will be Bryan losing and Punk winning. I don't see the two matches merging at all.

[Loss]

Michael Cole reading off quotes from everyone during their matches drives me bonkers. Why don't they do inserts with the wrestlers themselves saying whatever it is that they said earlier in the day?

[Jimmy Redman]

Michael Cole reading off quotes from everyone during their matches drives me bonkers. Why don't they do inserts with the wrestlers themselves saying whatever it is that they said earlier in the day?

Jesus Christ this drives me nuts. I feel like saying it after every show and I always forget. It sounds so awful and yes, is just a lazy way to not have actual wrestlers do actual promos.

 

Not to mention, he does this not only with imaginary promos, but actual ones as well. So if say Raw opens with Cena saying like "It doesn't matter what The Authority wants, what's 'best for business' is what the WWE Universe wants, and they want me to beat Randy Orton this Sunday at TLC to become the Unified WWE World Heavyweight Champion", then Cena will wrestle an hour later and Cole will say, "according to John Cena earlier today, he says that it doesn't matter what The Authority wants, what's 'best for business' is what the WWE Universe wants, and they want me to beat Randy Orton this Sunday at TLC to become the Unified WWE World Champion...those are the words of John Cena."

 

He never paraphrases, always quotes an earlier promo entirely verbatim. Just another one of those annoying as fuck announcer ticks.