anarchistxx Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well, WCWs shitty finishes usually included pointless heel/face turns, clusterfucks, countless run ins, laughable convoluted swerves et al. Whereas the Punk/Ryback finish was a fairly standard face gets screwed by corrupt ref with a fast count. It wasn't satisfying in the least but it made sense and was a pretty conventional way of having a heel retain with the face remaining strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I`ve found it best to generally avoid WWE from September through December in recent years. Although this year I`ve avoided most everything since May. Things will pick up in the new year. I think. Maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Ok, does anyone REALLY still think this  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGmnQyWsqDQ  "ruined" Goldberg in WWE?  No, but to me it's just shorthand for stupid stuff WWE does with guys that could potentially make them money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Ok, does anyone REALLY still think this  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGmnQyWsqDQ  "ruined" Goldberg in WWE? Yes. Don't you know that moment ruined the boom period Goldberg was about to usher in!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Ok, does anyone REALLY still think this  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGmnQyWsqDQ  "ruined" Goldberg in WWE? Whether it "ruined" him is up for the individual to decide, but it told you right away that it wasn't the same Goldberg you had in WCW, and wasn't worth emotionally investing in or taking seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I want to get back to the idea that this was WCW-level booking. I don't think you guys remember WCW main events very clear. I just looked up the results of every WCW PPV from 1998 and exactly one had a truly satisfying finish that did not have some type of beatdown, interference, celebrity, swerve, turn on tag partner or a lackluster match. Most of them were downright horrid... Sting-Hogan, Giant & Sting vs. Outsiders, Savage vs. Hogan Cage Match, The two celebrity tags, the worst Wargames of all time, a shitty World War 3 battle royal with an overbooked DDP-Bret Hart match, and the end of Goldberg's run with a tazer. This isn't even discussing the undercards where 3 or 4 of the PPVs of the year could be candidates for Worst PPV of all time. I didn't even pick 1999 or 2000 which are even worse. Â Guys... this is not WCW. To claim otherwise is just ignorant. Your argument doesn't make sense. Â Saying "this can't be a WCW type of thing because WCW did shitty finishes/main events more often" is not an argument against that angle/finish being shitty. Â No, maybe I wasn't clear but I am saying that this isn't even comparable to the dumbest of WCW moves and the pattern of PPV finishes certainly isn't WCW-like. Those who think the sky is falling and this is WCW level booking all over again weren't paying attention to WCW. This would be like the 50th worst WCW finish. Â EDIT: Elaborating more. The match wasn't a great Punk match but there were things to like about the match including alot of the cat and mouse stuff and Ryback doing his best battering ram into the stairs. Also, ultimately, even with the screwy finish, the WWE followed up and left the fans with Ryback on top of a cage with the fans chanting his catchphrase. There are things it seems that WCW never got right... like letting the fans leave thinking they got their money's worth... or if the card was shitty, letting them go home with a feel good moment at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 As an aside listening to the Dave/Bryan show on HITC today, Bryan and Dave both disliked the first half of the Sheamus/Show match and Dave said the reason the match was good is that they kicked out of the two finishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Ryback-Punk finish was the worst thing I've seen from WWE in a long time. Knew putting Ryback in this spot would be a failure, but didn't think it would be that bad. Worse than Kevin Nash running in and "sticking" Punk. Kevin Nash run in would have been better than an evil ref low blow. Â It's amazing how much they panicked when Cena needed to have surgery. Threw Vince into a crazy tv match just weeks after Lawler almost died live on air, threw Ryback into a HIAC way before he was ready for even a simple main event....... Â Meh, at least they didn't take the belt off of Punk and seem on course for the Punk-Rock match they've been building for 6 months and hopefully a triple threat with Cena at WM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Ryback-Punk finish was the worst thing I've seen from WWE in a long time. Knew putting Ryback in this spot would be a failure, but didn't think it would be that bad. Worse than Kevin Nash running in and "sticking" Punk. Kevin Nash run in would have been better than an evil ref low blow.It was evil ref low blow, help hold Ryback down, and a fast count... The bought ref Tri-Fecta. And it was far better than that Nash stuff. And what's with the general hate of a finish like that? It's only been around, like, forever. People today go on so fondly about the evil twin Hebner when Andre beat Hogan, and that was incredibly stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 That was fairly clever and was well explained. This was something they pulled from their ass because they lacked the balls to do a real finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 If they ran an angle on Raw that a heel bribed someone to get plastic surgery to look like one of the referees, people would be screaming at the top of their lungs how stupid it is. Bryan would be bringing it up on every show for weeks in that incredulous tone he gets when something outrages him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 So? If they actually explained it well and had an actual twin, I would not care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Who cares what Alvarez thinks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Who cares what Alvarez thinks?Anyone that listens to Observer Radio, I assume. I actually prefer him over Dave Meltzer, myself. Although both of them have their pros and cons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 How many people are specifically fond of the evil twin ref angle? It's more a case of people having fond memories of 80s WWF and viewing things from the era with rose-colored glasses. I don't see too many people looking back on 2012 WWE with nostalgia. Â Anyway, I'm kind of struggling with the distinction between a chickenshit heel and a bitch. Would Punk have really looked like less of a bitch if he had gotten some offense in off something like a Heyman distraction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Serious question: has there ever been a complete chickenshit heel that has drawn big money? I suppose you could always point to Ric Flair, but the more he was bitched out, the less he drew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I think comparing that match to Hogan/Andre, one of the hottest programs in the promotion's history, is pretty silly. WWE has done lots of screwjob finishes that have actually worked. This didn't. Setting the finish aside, the match didn't deliver on any level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Who cares what Alvarez thinks?Anyone that listens to Observer Radio, I assume. I actually prefer him over Dave Meltzer, myself. Although both of them have their pros and cons. I've listened to a few of the shows in the last couple of weeks and I don't care what Bryan thinks - certainly not to the extent that he effects the way I think about anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Serious question: has there ever been a complete chickenshit heel that has drawn big money? I suppose you could always point to Ric Flair, but the more he was bitched out, the less he drew. Honky Tonk Man, I suppose. But people tend to forget that the story ended with him decisively getting his comeuppance and then crashing down the card. Heels don't seem to work as well as long-term centerpieces of a promotion, particularly chickenshit ones. Comic books are probably the closest form of entertainment to professional wrestling from a narrative standpoint, and I think promoters could learn a lot from how comics work. The Joker is great as a recurring Batman villain and in the occasional one-shot or limited series, but he shouldn't have his own series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 I've listened to a few of the shows in the last couple of weeks and I don't care what Bryan thinks - certainly not to the extent that he effects the way I think about anything.He's never not going to be on there. It's his radio show. Dave's constant "ya know?" drives me insane! Plus, to be perfectly honest, when they start talking about MMA, I either fast-forward or shut off the show. I just like to hear post-RAW & post-PPV opinions I guess. I mean, I don't think I care what Meltzer or Alverez either one ever says, it's not like it sways my opinion any, but I do find that Bryan tends to be closer to my opinions than Dave does. Although both of them seem to be completely ignorant to the rest of the world. It always blows my mind when they don't know, as an example, who a top athlete is, or don't get a TV or movie reference. It's almost funny while at the same time being somewhat sad.  Also, it made me literally laugh aloud, almost to the point of tears, when I heard that Dave Meltzer reviewed that new shitty Kevin James movie...just because there's some MMA in it. What a fucking joke. The same reason I don't want to listen to Jalen Rose talk about the New York Yankees I don't want to hear Dave Meltzer talk about movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 How many people are specifically fond of the evil twin ref angle? It's more a case of people having fond memories of 80s WWF and viewing things from the era with rose-colored glasses. I don't see too many people looking back on 2012 WWE with nostalgia. Â Anyway, I'm kind of struggling with the distinction between a chickenshit heel and a bitch. Would Punk have really looked like less of a bitch if he had gotten some offense in off something like a Heyman distraction? If he had gotten a significant amount of offense, he would have looked much better and Ryback would have looked better. Instead he looked like a slightly tougher Heath Slater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueminister Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Serious question: has there ever been a complete chickenshit heel that has drawn big money? I suppose you could always point to Ric Flair, but the more he was bitched out, the less he drew. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgeous_George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueminister Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 CM Punk is basically Gorgeous George except with Internet Fighting Spirit posturing instead of generalized pansiness. (Also sans the imagination of the public and great ratings share.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Wasn't the key to Gorgeous George drawing that though he played an effeminate fop, appearances were deceiving and he could hold his own in the squared circle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Wasn't the key to Gorgeous George drawing that though he played an effeminate fop, appearances were deceiving and he could hold his own in the squared circle?Or as Gordon Solie put it "He was all man and a yard wide." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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