Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair

[NintendoLogic]

If you'e going to accuse someone of arguing in bad faith, you should at least have the courage to use your own words rather than hiding behind someone else's.

[Loss]

Me?

[NintendoLogic]

No, Matt.

[Slasher]

Probably referring to Matt D., since his post was quoting Dylan.

[Matt D]

Aw, man I was just trying to lure Dylan back into the note. He absolutely wasn't talking about this board at all. I was just having a laugh. He was talking about some sort of heavily political thing, which I tried to make clear with the drone comment (his post before this was about drones, seriously). I was just goofing! Sorry.

 

Unless he was actually talking about the board, in which case I'm an ass. But I don't think that was the case (about Dylan. I may well be an ass). I did toss the link at him right after I posted it to give him a chance to tell me I was a doofus and to edit it for whatever reason.

 

I don't think there was any bad faith. It was a joke. I think this is generally the most reasonably open place to discuss this stuff we could hope for.

[Loss]

I know he wasn't talking about the board. Dylan is a friend. No worries. I just wanted to respond to the point. Looks like it's a moot point.

[Matt D]

I just thought it fit hilariously into some of the overblown discussion. Apologies if I ruffled feathers by not being clear it was satirical.

[Guest Andrews]

Now that that's settled, can we all agree Bret Hart is far better

[BlueGuy]

Now that that's settled, can we all agree Bret Hart is far better

Now that's funny. LOL

[Frankensteiner]

After watching a bunch of 1992 WWF recently, I actually have no problem with Flair's cartoon-ish style in the WWF setting. I guess the biggest difference was that the presentation of his character. His promos and interviews with Perfect were more over the top than in JCP/WCW. Plus Flair was never portrayed as some great or serious wrestler, more of an opportunist and cheater. So the in-ring style fits much better than when he was put over as the greatest wrestling champion ever in the NWA. Also helps that Flair was never above transitional champion in his two reigns with the WWF belt.

[Loss]

Flair did not wrestle in the 80s like he did in the WWF. That comparison assumes he was still the same guy in 1991-1992 that he was in the decade preceding that.

 

Relying on a ringside second for heat wasn't really a big part of his 80s act, and aside from the Ironman handheld and the Rumble, he never really had a match that went more than 20 minutes or so in the WWF. There are also a lot of spots that he called for regularly in the NWA that he didn't do regularly in his WWF run, probably because he didn't have opponents capable of pulling them off. For example, aside from Bret Hart, I don't recall anyone doing the bridge up spot out of the side headlock to flying headscissors chain. I also don't recall him getting in a ton of stiff chopfests. He worked as a foil to the top babyface. He was the de facto #1 heel for most of the run, but he really wasn't presented as the top heel, if that makes sense.

 

I always saw WWF Flair as a stripped down, faster, emptier version of the 80s NWA champ. Not as many spots working off of a headlock, not as many teases of figure four reversals from his opponents, not as much build to the figure four. That continued when he returned to WCW, and he kept slowly declining from his peak as the decade progressed, where you'd often see nothing setting up a figure four except a belly-to-back suplex.

[BlueGuy]

After watching a bunch of 1992 WWF recently, I actually have no problem with Flair's cartoon-ish style in the WWF setting. I guess the biggest difference was that the presentation of his character. His promos and interviews with Perfect were more over the top than in JCP/WCW. Plus Flair was never portrayed as some great or serious wrestler, more of an opportunist and cheater. So the in-ring style fits much better than when he was put over as the greatest wrestling champion ever in the NWA. Also helps that Flair was never above transitional champion in his two reigns with the WWF belt.

I'm guessing you never watched or listened to any of the Coliseum videos or even Prime Time Wrestling or his first few months on Superstars and Challenge. Furthermore, to say his first reign was as a transitional champion is way off and only works if you look at the number of days involved. You don't typically see transitional championship reigns built up over a five month period and lasting three months. That's not to mention that he continued to main event throughout 1992 against the guy he dropped the title to and he did regain the championship from that same guy. Considering he regained the championship from the man who he dropped it to and was in world title matches throughout the year, how can that be considered any type of transition? His second reign likely wasn't intended to be transitional. Injury and philosophical company changes imposed by the increasing steroid scandal pressure forced McMahon to make the switch in late 1992 up to July 1994 to a new champion who, while healthier than Flair at that point in time, was devoid of any kind of athletic physique throughout his career (evidenced by his lack of physique while working for his father and that he was almost completely covered very quickly after arriving in the WWF) in an effort to visibly put over the notion that WWF wrestlers weren't steroid users (in spite of the fact that his new guy had actually used steroids).

[NintendoLogic]

This is the thread that never ends

It just goes on and on my friends

Some people posted in it not knowing what it was

And they'll continue posting in it forever just because

This is the thread that never ends

[JerryvonKramer]

This all goes back to booking philosophies 101.

 

Think about WWF heels from the 1980s and early 1990s. They came in only two shapes: big fat monsters or scheming technicians who were also massive cowards. The WWF never ever booked the second group of guys strongly. I mean they PROTECTED them, but they didn't make them seem strong as threats -- does that make sense? Think of heel Jake, heel Savage, DiBiase, Rude, or Perfect. Flair in WWF was booked as just another one of these guys.

 

Yes, he was the de facto top heel, but so was DiBiase in 88, Savage in 89, Rude (and later Perfect) in 90.

 

These guys would go over jobbers and JTTS clean, but they'd almost always win cheap against credible faces. Count out, feet-on-the-ropes pin, manger-interference finish, etc. etc.

 

All this means is that no matter how well built a DiBiase or Savage or Rude were, in the world of WWF kayfabe you don't really give them a chance vs. a Hogan or a Warrior. You always knew deep down that the big muscely guy is going to beat the sneaky technical guy.

 

In the world of WWF presentation, Bundy, Andre, Bossman -- these are the sorts of threats that were given a real hope (kayfabe-wise) of beating Hogan or Warrior.

 

NWA is like a completely different universe. Yes, the heels got cheap wins and cheated there too, but they were also given credibility in a way that WWF never were in that time frame. NWA Flair and WWF Flair are like night and day in that respect.

[jdw]

Relying on a ringside second for heat wasn't really a big part of his 80s act, and aside from the Ironman handheld and the Rumble, he never really had a match that went more than 20 minutes or so in the WWF.

His matches with Bret in 1992 look like they all pretty much went past 20 minutes, at least ones we have times for.

 

There aren't a lot of times for the Flair-Savage matches. The early ones seem under 20, some of them quite short (for a Flair match). The later times look longer, and there seem to be some 20+. Again, it's a very small % of the number that have times.

 

Beyond those two, Flair wasn't working a lot with guys who would go long in the WWF. Some of the Hogan matches went a good deal longer than standard house show Hogan matches, especially the first time around. Piper didn't really want to work long at the time. Good lord... the Piper-Flair that I saw live at the time is one that, at the end of it, I really didn't want to see another 10 minutes of the two working. Flair went just under 20 against Bret in their first taped match in 1991. The Tito matches went 15+, which is about right given Tito's push at the time.

[flyonthewall2983]

Is there a handheld of the one in London, Ontario against Piper where Flair said he was drunk?

[Sidebottom]

Sorry NintendoLogic, I saw this thread and can't resist adding my two bits.

 

Bret Hart for me lads.

 

I consider him the more versatile, more talented, I think he has a better library of work and commands more respect.

[JerryvonKramer]

I get heart palpatations every time I read a new post in this thread. Sidebottom's entry is no exception.

 

Loss - is there a way for me to make it so this thread doesn't appear? I don't think I can take it.

[Loss]

If there was, I would have done it for myself by now, believe me.

[jdw]

[tomk]

This is a really cool New Yorker piece on how Bing Crosby and crooning helped create Silicon Valley:

 

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elem...y.html?mobify=0

 

Perry Como's Glendora on 78

 

http://youtube/QiYfTDQnE9A

 

Olavi Virta (King of the Finnish tango) cover:

 

http://youtube/K34ZDIVJWLs

 

Slikee Boys:

 

http://youtube/f8QUlEzkIUM

I should have said more about Finnish Tango at the time. Being the King of the Tango in Finland isn't anything to be laughed at. The Tango isn't novelty music in Finland but rather is Finnish Soul Music.

 

http://www.fimic.fi/fimic/fimic.nsf/0/B07D...FE?opendocument

 

Finnish Tango is its own unique creature, transformed from its original Argentian forms by the unique Finnish sensibility.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3618574...-the-tango.html

 

I should have also said more about the Slickee Boys. The Slickee Boys were a psychedelic punk band from DC in the mid 70s. At a point that most venues in DC were playing top 40 cover bands, The Slickees created the networks for home grown music that led to the music of Minor Threat/Fugazi, Henry Rollins and David Grohl...all who cite them as important influence.

[Loss]

I'm the last person who anyone would expect to bump this horrific thread, but I needed to counter something Frankensteiner said in the Backlund thread and I didn't want to derail that one. You can't kill a thread that's already awful after all.

 

Jerry should watch that Flair/Garvin match from the Superstars special. Flair gets off a few chops and I think some type of suplex and has no other offense in that match whatsoever. Something tells me the review would be a lot different.

I decided to finally watch this match because you've made this claim before and I suspected it to be farfetched. I was glad to watch and see that I was right. Here's some play-by-play.

 

They trade chops to start after a lockup. Then Flair bumps off of a shoulderblock and eats a second chop before bailing to the outside. When they lock up again, Garvin takes over with a side headlock. Flair grabs his leg to attempt a counter but thinks better of it, backing Garvin into the corner and giving him three chops before eating about ten in retaliation and kicking out of a pin attempt at one.

 

Now, Flair is pissed and Garvin won't back down. He briefly sells a knucklelock from Garvin before backing him in the corner and starting another exchange of chop trades, which Garvin also wins. Tempers flare and they start shoving each other before Garvin grabs Flair by the nose and gouges his face. Flair pulls the referee between them to give himself a little space.

 

They lock up once again and Flair catches him with a knee before they trade chops once again. Again, Garvin wins the exchange. Then Flair eats a back bodydrop and Garvin applies a standing hammerlock and stomps Flair's arm. When Flair tries to get up, Garvin slaps him across the face. Flair gets up again and starts a slugfest, but once again gets the worst of it.

 

Back in the ring, Garvin throws a few more chops and throws Flair shoulder first into the turnbuckle before doing a step over armbar with a twist. Flair counters this with a knee to the back, throws some hard strikes and tosses Garvin out of the ring. Garvin runs back in and they get into another slugfest. Again, Flair comes out on the losing end of this and takes a bump over the top to the outside.

 

Back in the ring once again, Garvin locks in a sleeperhold. Flair ends up countering that with a belly-to-back suplex and does a double stomp on Garvin's chest. He then does a vertical suplex and gets a two count before hitting a kneedrop, strutting and covering Garvin again. But he's his own worst enemy. He's beating Garvin by out wrestling him, but mounts him and tries to choke him out, which just inspires a Garvin comeback of stiff punches. They trade chops and punches again. Garvin comes out on the winning end of that, and by this point, they've established that Flair can keep the momentum if they wrestle, but Garvin is going to win a slugfest. It's in Flair's best interest to just wrestle the guy, but his pride is in the way, and Garvin keeps turning the match into a fight.

 

Flair takes a backwards bump into the corner and Flair tries going for another suplex, but this time Garvin reverses it. They do the headlock -> head scissors -> bridge up sequence which ends in the first of a few really close pitfalls. Garvin slugs him, but Flair takes him off of his feet and they end up gouging and choking and striking each other in the corner. Garvin comes out ahead there yet again, but Flair isn't backing down. Flair tries coming off the top, but Garvin punches him in the stomach in a great looking spot and gets another close fall. Flair gets a close two count of his own and yells at the ref, and in the process, the ref falls outside the ring, which gives Garvin a visual fall over Flair with no ref to count. Hands of Stone does it again. The referee returns to action before Flair catches Garvin with a high knee and gets the pin. Garvin had his foot on the rope but the ref didn't see.

 

I won't argue that Flair didn't put Garvin over strong here. The two were about to go around the horn and they got over the idea that Garvin could beat Flair. They did this through lots of toe-to-toe exchanges (which Garvin won) and giving Garvin some visual falls. But the idea that Garvin squashed him is ridiculous, and your description of how much offense Flair got is simply untrue.

[goodhelmet]

This thread had some awesome stuff in it.

[Frankensteiner]

I can't bring myself to watch that match again but I did want to respond to a couple of points.

 

He's beating Garvin by out wrestling him, but mounts him and tries to choke him out, which just inspires a Garvin comeback of stiff punches. They trade chops and punches again. Garvin comes out on the winning end of that, and by this point, they've established that Flair can keep the momentum if they wrestle

I think that is a pretty crazy conclusion considering you are basing it on a sequence of 3 moves done in succession in probably what is a minute of 20 minute match. And that is the only advantage Flair gets in the match. Race was in control for longer and looked more threatening against Backlund.

 

Also, when you say this...

they've established that Flair can keep the momentum if they wrestle

and it's almost immediately followed by...

Flair takes a backwards bump into the corner and Flair tries going for another suplex, but this time Garvin reverses it. They do the headlock -> head scissors -> bridge up sequence which ends in the first of a few really close pitfalls.

...that's not much of a backup to your point. Going by your play-by-play, it seems to me Garvin kicks Flair's ass all over the place. If you want to break it down to wrestling vs. brawling, it's at best a stalemate for Flair when they wrestle. I think the best things you can say about Flair (kayfabe-wise) is that he's resourceful and resilient when desperate.

[Loss]

I think they did enough to establish that Flair's best chance was to wrestle. Garvin was going to take him easily if he let his pride get the best of him and fight. I don't know how much they needed to dwell on that to establish that, especially when they were wrestling a brawl anyway. We got a brief moment to say "Hey, if Flair wrestled, he may have a chance here", but Ron was more interested in brawling. He controlled the tone of the match. Flair couldn't help himself and got caught up in it because he wanted to give Garvin a receipt. But he could never keep any momentum in that direction.

 

Garvin got in a few wrestling moves. Flair also got in a few chops and punches. It's not "no other offense in that match whatsoever". This isn't a big offensive display for Flair by any means, and I'm not going to pretend it is. I also won't pretend that it was a 50/50 match. But calling it a one-sided slaughter is an overstatement. Two different types of suplexes (belly to back and vertical), a kneedrop, a double stomp and his various strikes isn't a ton of offense, but it's more than one move.

 

It's also probably the one Flair/Garvin match that I've never really heard receive a lot of praise in the first place, which makes me wonder why it's the one being focused on.