khawk20 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Mods, please feel free to move this to The Microscope Forum if it belongs there... We all talk about guys we consider for the GOAT tag. It's obvious that anyone finishing in your own personal Top 10 is someone you consider exceptional. My question is, where is your bar when considering GOAT candidates, in terms of the lowest number on your personal list? For example, say I have 25 guys that I believe are seriously in the GOAT discussion. Anyone I would rank at 26 and lower I would consider great wrestlers, but not serious GOAT candidates because 25 is my personal bar. Given that we are picking people from a cast of literally thousands, I imagine that some people have a list of 100 or more guys they could argue for, to some degree. Others might have 4 or 5. I'm just trying to gage where people are with this aspect of it. I would think that the depth of discussion would limit a lot of people to seriously considering ten at best, but this is also a place where the people have watched more styles, promotions, and wrestlers in general than almost anywhere else, thereby opening up tons more guys for serious consideration. I don't think there is a right or wrong number of candidates to consider, but maybe some of you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I dont have an exact number. I just list a finite amount of guys I would consider true GOAT contenders and then that is the number. I just listed off a quick rundown and had 8 guys listed. That is not to say anyone beyond that 8 couldn't be someone else's GOAT. For instance, Funk wouldn't be one of the 8 and I feel like I have watched enough of him to accurately judge. However, he would be a definite top 15 contender for me and could be as high as 6-7 so I don't begrudge someone like Dylan having him as the GOAT and understand the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I've been talking about this sort of thing with Exposer some over the last few days. I think on his list he came up with sixteen or so goes who he could reasonably argue as contenders for the top spot. With me it's weird because I feel like there are a lot of guys I would consider for the top ten (upwards of forty maybe even), but for the absolute top spot I'm not sure I could name ten people I would consider that strongly. Having said that virtually everyone I would consider a top ten contender is someone where if they showed up as someones number one I wouldn't think it that odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Five, and that's at a push. Then again it depends on how you slice it. I have a "greatest in-ring ability at their peak"... there's "greatest in-ring ability with night-in/night-out consistency", and, if you want, a "greatest factoring promos/angles/'all-around ability'" (at least for the US). But as for the first one, even if I wasn't sure in mine it'd be at most a handful of candidates. Think popular music: you've got Beatles and Dylan, and that's pretty much it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 The music analogy is quite right. Dylan and Beatles, no one else really in the conversation, but then for the next tier of greatness down there are lots of people: David Bowie, The Smiths, Lou Reed, Elvis, Johnny Cash ... I mean there are shitloads vying for the 3-15 spot. In wrestling, I've pretty much got Flair as a clear frontrunner with Funk, Jumbo and possibly Lawler and possibly Stan Hansen in the conversation. I'm open to hearing anecdotal cases from the 60s and 70s where we don't have lots of footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 We serve drinks around the clock at my GOAT bar. My GOAT pick wouldn't have it any other way. But I have to make sure he has funds before he orders a damn thing to drink, or else I'll go bankrupt quickly. Every drink counts, of course, since I only have five or so patrons. The other four are there to recognize that they are reasonable choices someone could make to be the guest of honor at their own GOAT bar, but not really because I would let them be the guest of honor in mine. I know better. If I hear about other potential patrons doing cool things, I'll occasionally let them start drinking here. But I need to see evidence of them doing said cool things over a long period of time in a variety of places and with a variety of people. Small, skewed, favorable sampling that lacks context doesn't get anyone an invite. That's how we roll at my GOAT bar. Business was better than at any bar in history in the 1980s. We stayed open longer than we should have, and probably needed new decor and management eventually, but people occasionally like to pretend that us getting a little set in our ways not aging gracefully somehow makes other bars better, despite being voted the best neighborhood bar 8 years in a row! It's not our fault we have the market covered and people got a little tired of our cocktails. Just because you've had the drink a million times doesn't mean it's not as good. It just means that you have a drinking problem. Still, go check out the bar that is only open three months out of the year. Or go check out the one that is popular with local guests, but that out-of-towners never really get into. You may even want to check out the one that serves Canadian beer, where they go all out for holidays and special occasions, but have really lazy bartenders who just go through the motions during slow times. When you get that out of your system, my GOAT bar will still be open and we'll still serve the same cocktails we always have. Other bars may have better bartenders or more variety on the drink menu, and some may even serve food. But eventually, everyone comes back here when they want to get laid or vent to their co-workers after a long week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 And there it is, Loss finally snapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I was just having a little fun. People always think I'm unhinged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I know. Well that was fun actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Loss GOAT Bar was great for a long time, but there were several years where it only served Milwaukee's Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 My question is, where is your bar when considering GOAT candidates, in terms of the lowest number on your personal list? 0 or 2 Depends on the type of GOAT we're talking about. Not being a wise ass. Really. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Token Daniel Bryan joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Loss GOAT Bar was great for a long time, but there were several years where it only served Milwaukee's Best As a straight edge guy, how would you know if Milwaukee's Best is shit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Loss GOAT Bar was great for a long time, but there were several years where it only served Milwaukee's Best As a straight edge guy, how would you know if Milwaukee's Best is shit? I am straight edge guy who toured with shitty punk bands filled with alcoholics, career criminals and degenerates from the time I was 14 til the time I was twenty. I know more about bad beer and hard drugs than most rednecks/junkies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Loss GOAT Bar was great for a long time, but there were several years where it only served Milwaukee's Best As a straight edge guy, how would you know if Milwaukee's Best is shit? I am straight edge guy who toured with shitty punk bands filled with alcoholics, career criminals and degenerates from the time I was 14 til the time I was twenty. I know more about bad beer and hard drugs than most rednecks/junkies. As a 15 year old drinking MB, you didn't drink beer for the taste. Back to the topic, I came up with 22 guys so my GOAT bar is 22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 I moved the music talk to Pro Wrestling Mostly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Personally, I don't find the GOAT argument to be very satisfying. I think the discussion and debate can sometimes be worthwhile and the recent podcast was awesome, but I usually find the outcomes about as exciting as the results of a movie poll. I like Terry Funk. If I find a Terry Funk match I haven't seen before, I'm happy as Larry, but the argument for Funk as GOAT doesn't help me much. It doesn't help me discover who the best British wrestlers were, what the overlooked lucha is or whether a match is better or worse than it looks on paper. If I like Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue album I can instantly find other hardbop or guitar recommendations. If I enjoy the noir D.O.A I can instantly find other noir recommendations by year, decade or all-time. I think wrestling is sorely lacking in this regard despite people's best efforts to work on databases. I don't know that I'd trust myself to take part in a GOAT poll these days because I've barely seen any Buddy Rose or Crusher Blackwell. I've never seen a High Flyers match, only seen a minimum of Lawler, barely watched any MidSouth, World Class, Georgia or other territories and I kind of think my favourite styles are overlooked too. In 2006 I pushed all my favourites. In 2013 I don't really feel qualified. However, I would set my own personal bar as the best at what I like. I wouldn't limit it to a fixed number, the more the merrier, but I would make it an exclusive club. Satanico would be there, Fujiwara too. McManus, Breaks at his best, Casas at his, Ozaki at hers. Anybody who's good enough to put a plural in Greatest of All-Time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Despite watching as much wrestling as anyone alive in the past few years, I agree with this. I have my pick for GOAT, but I also acknowledge that it could potentially one day change. It would take a lot to make that happen, but it's not impossible. Rounding out my top ten or top twenty would be the harder part. I look at the GOAT lists and projects as a snapshot of opinion at the time, not necessarily something etched in stone that can never be reconsidered. As long as we approach it that way, I think it's fun and produces interesting things worth reading. The Smarkschoice poll wasn't great because of the final list as much as it was great because of the discussion and debate that led to a final list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 The Smarkschoice poll wasn't great because of the final list as much as it was great because of the discussion and debate that led to a final list. Indeed. It was during that time that my tastes had definitely smoothed a lot, for instance discovering some lucha gems, watching The Rock under a complete new outlook and finally enjoying him a lot (I really couldn't stand The Rock back in 98/99), and basically settling down from my "puro-elitist" phase once and for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 My question is, where is your bar when considering GOAT candidates, in terms of the lowest number on your personal list? 0 or 2 Depends on the type of GOAT we're talking about. Not being a wise ass. Really. Okay... since Will and Loss have gone first, I'll explain this: If you're asking me who the GOAT is from a Business standpoint, I'll be happy to answer and say my list of folks to ponder is limited to two people: Londos or Hogan. I get that other folks would have larger lists of folks to consider, including from other countries, but those are the two the are in the discussion for me. If your asking me who the GOAT is from a worker/performer standpoint, it's 0. I don't really care anymore. Just not something that matters when I watch wrestling, nor when I read about it. A sideways example: In the Greg Valentine thread, there was a mention of a Greg-Tito match that I don't think I've seen before, and it was well praised. I want to see it now. I'm not going to watch it thinking about whether it's a GOAT match, or Greg is a GOAT candidate, or Tito is a GOAT candidate. I'm interesting in seeing if it's another good, entertaining quality match between the two, and based on the comments, it's probably a good one. I'm less and less interested in whether Jumbo or Buddy is #1 or #2 or #14 or #17 than: "John: you should check out some Buddy. The guy could go. That WWF stuff of his you like? There's some stuff in Portland that you'd REALLY like. Check out these five as starter matches..." Or in turn saying: "You like Jumbo-Terry and Jumbo-Race in 1976 and 1977? You might want to track down the Jumbo-Brisco from 1978. Another good Jumbo match with a top gaijin, and Brisco is really good in it. Good fun match..." John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Don't be a buzzkill. We make lists to generate conversation, to help people experience guys they may not have seen before or see them in a new light, or just to argue. Also, I am predicting that over 75% of the board falls somewhere on the autism scale, myself included. Making lists and arguing about them is fun and keeps us grounded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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