JerryvonKramer Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 John Cena vs. Brock Lesnar (08/17/14) This was a unique match up and something I don't think any other babyface ace in history would do or be asked to do. I think I counted 16 German suplexes in this match. Brock's character work is phenomenal, he has really nailed that arrogant and cocksure monster idea. The moment where he sits up like the Undertaker and starts laughing his ass off moments after taking Cena's AA was great. As a total massacre, this was mesmirising. But I also dug how the crowd got into Cena's hope spots. His flurry of offense before the AA and the STF spot were both very well done. I would still question the booking of the match itself because I don't see how it doesn't hurt and devalue Cena in the long run (which is why I was arguing he should never be putting over Rusev or Kevin Owens this year). But as a match to watch in isolation it's a lot of fun. **** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 John Cena vs. Rob Van Dam (06/11/06) This was a lot of fun with a rabidly anti-Cena ECW crowd. It was sort of a "greatest hits" of RVD high spots for the best part. But it was entertaining to see so many fans openly sticking a middle finger at Cena, telling him to fuck off, shitting over absolutely everything he did and so on. I laughed out loud when Cena clotheslined the ref. Crowd dynamics were fun. Match wasn't anything, and looking back it was interesting to see how much the WWE were investing in the ECW brand at the time. The RVD as WWE champ deal was something I had to look up again just to believe that it actually happened. I also thought that this match is good evidence for why RVD could never have been a top top headline star because I think he essentially bottled it in his big moment. Nonetheless, interesting thing to see. *** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I am glad I pestered you into watching the RVD match. I didn't think you would see it as a great match but I thought you would enjoy it for how much energy the crowd had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 John Cena vs. Brock Lesnar (08/17/14) This was a unique match up and something I don't think any other babyface ace in history would do or be asked to do. I think I counted 16 German suplexes in this match. Brock's character work is phenomenal, he has really nailed that arrogant and cocksure monster idea. The moment where he sits up like the Undertaker and starts laughing his ass off moments after taking Cena's AA was great. As a total massacre, this was mesmirising. But I also dug how the crowd got into Cena's hope spots. His flurry of offense before the AA and the STF spot were both very well done. I would still question the booking of the match itself because I don't see how it doesn't hurt and devalue Cena in the long run (which is why I was arguing he should never be putting over Rusev or Kevin Owens this year). But as a match to watch in isolation it's a lot of fun. **** It was 16 suplexs alright. That was a big talkng point going into the rematch in September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't think the Brock squash devalued or hurt Cena in the long haul, to be honest. A case could be made that Cena was, in fact, the only guy on the roster with enough standing & status to make the match mean as much as it did. A massacre like that doesn't hold as much weight if it isn't being done with a guy like Cena, quite frankly. Besides, whatever damage was done... was quickly UNDONE by the rematch less than a month later. No harm, no foul. I still stand by the statement that the SummerSlam match was a shock & awe spectacle. It was great in the moment. But the Night of Champions bout is a much better contest & even holds a heavier atmosphere. It feels like a real "high stakes" prize fight, and Cena's usual shtick of the bound & determined babyface works for me there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Do you have the date of that one? Do I need to see it? I've become a bit of a Brock mark over the past year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Night Of Champions 21.9.2014. Viewing advised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't think the Brock squash devalued or hurt Cena in the long haul, to be honest. A case could be made that Cena was, in fact, the only guy on the roster with enough standing & status to make the match mean as much as it did. A massacre like that doesn't hold as much weight if it isn't being done with a guy like Cena, quite frankly. Besides, whatever damage was done... was quickly UNDONE by the rematch less than a month later. No harm, no foul. I still stand by the statement that the SummerSlam match was a shock & awe spectacle. It was great in the moment. But the Night of Champions bout is a much better contest & even holds a heavier atmosphere. It feels like a real "high stakes" prize fight, and Cena's usual shtick of the bound & determined babyface works for me there. I really should rewatch that NOC match myself, because I think I might have a change of opinion on it. I think that show sucked and had really beaten any enjoyment out of me by the time the main event started and I didn't like it as much as I would have on a stand-alone viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I just watched the Cesaro match (Raw 17/2/14) and it's pretty rad. All I remembered from it was the cool spots, but it is actually a lot more paced and well built than I thought. I would actually put it on top of the JVK pile, because it leans more physical than dramatic by Cena standards, there's no finisher spam or overwrought Acting...and there ARE a lot of cool spots. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1cswxz_john-cena-vs-cesaro-on-raw-full-match_sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't think the Brock squash devalued or hurt Cena in the long haul, to be honest. A case could be made that Cena was, in fact, the only guy on the roster with enough standing & status to make the match mean as much as it did. A massacre like that doesn't hold as much weight if it isn't being done with a guy like Cena, quite frankly. Besides, whatever damage was done... was quickly UNDONE by the rematch less than a month later. No harm, no foul. I still stand by the statement that the SummerSlam match was a shock & awe spectacle. It was great in the moment. But the Night of Champions bout is a much better contest & even holds a heavier atmosphere. It feels like a real "high stakes" prize fight, and Cena's usual shtick of the bound & determined babyface works for me there. I really should rewatch that NOC match myself, because I think I might have a change of opinion on it. I think that show sucked and had really beaten any enjoyment out of me by the time the main event started and I didn't like it as much as I would have on a stand-alone viewing. The finish is VERY underwhelming, for sure. And I absolutely understand why it received so much negative backlash at the time it occurred. But really, the match itself tells a strong redemption story of Cena refocusing and adapting. And they almost went all the way with it on commentary for a change, if only they would have outright stated that THIS is the reason Cena is a 14-time champ. He might lose the first battle... but he adapts, develops a winning strategy, and recovers in time to win the war. Good, basic stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I just watched the Cesaro match (Raw 17/2/14) and it's pretty rad. All I remembered from it was the cool spots, but it is actually a lot more paced and well built than I thought. I would actually put it on top of the JVK pile, because it leans more physical than dramatic by Cena standards, there's no finisher spam or overwrought Acting...and there ARE a lot of cool spots. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1cswxz_john-cena-vs-cesaro-on-raw-full-match_sport Yeah, that match was fucking great. Cesaro's run that February was so much fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 John Cena vs. Kevin Owens (6/14/15) This was in all likelihood worse than the first match. I say "likelihood" because I'm not sure it's worth comparing. I don't recommend Parv watch this match at all. The two criticisms coming out of the MITB show thread that I strongly agree with are that if any other wrestler had this match they'd be criticised for it and that it was finisher spam. I thought Owens' character work was good before and after the match; it was everything between bells that was a problem. I'm not sure why people claim that Cena is good at workrate matches when it's clear that he's not. His transitions are so unbelievably poor, especially his counters into the STF, and his missed punch/clothesline choreographed spin arounds are the most choreographed thing you will see in a day's wrestling viewing. How many different finishers did Owens burn through here? He used Jericho's finisher and Michaels' to name two. I thought the WWE was a bit more protective about things like that. And man do they go to the finishers/nearfalls early. A couple of shoulder tackles and you're hitting finishers on each other? Some of the finishers looked good in isolation (i.e. on replay), but it's tough to care about the ebb and flow of it if you're an outsider looking in. The big storyline of Cena claiming to the ref (Cena never does this! Wow!) ought to be more ammo for the Bret vs. Cena thread since Bret was a million times better at losing it with an official, and isn't Cena's over-acting when he couldn't get a three count the kind of thing we criticise Orton and Edge for? As for pulling out new moves, it would help if they looked good. Or if it wasn't video game button mashing. The Code Red was stupid and doesn't fit Cena's character. He already has an ugly enough moveset without adding that sort of thing to it. And why is he working a Wrestlemania type epic in an upper midcard feud anyway? Doesn't he have any sense of scale vis a vis card placement? I'll stop now. Match was around ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 I'm right there with you on both matches OJ. Totally puzzled by the love for them though not by the broader enthusiasm for Owens' push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 I liked, not loved, the first match and really didn't care for the second one at all. It absolutely WAS finisher spam and they totally ran out of ideas at the end where they just started repeating spots wholesale from the first match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Who was praising those matches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 First one got a lot of praise, but a good chunk of it was "I DON'T BELIEVE THIS GUY I LIKE WON" sort of praise. I still think if you put the two matches together (opening stretch of the second, heat of the first, and some mishmash of the closing segments), you'd get one good match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 First one went downhill after the bell rung ...the best bit was Cena making out with the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Who was praising those matches? Well, many people if you read the show threads. I for one loved them and went into much detail as to why on my blog after the PPVs. I'd link specifics but I'm about to pass out. For what it's worth, I can completely understand them not resonating with someone who isn't aware of or not interested in or unable to buy into the wider context. If you're just watching it as a stand alone PPV match, I can see how it's just finisher spam. But in terms of Cena's US Title run, in fact his whole career arc and raison d'être, I thought they had an extraordinary richness and impeccable psychology. They really work for me on that level, the level where I can use them to write 1500 word theses on Cena's character and motivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Who was praising those matches? Lots of people including me. It's a match that is great in context and I can see people having issues with it out of context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Some of this is starting to read like "you can only be into Cena if you're into modern WWE". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Some of this is starting to read like "you can only be into Cena if you're into modern WWE". Not true. You loved the Umaga and Brock matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 There isn't much context for those matches to begin with. The first one worked for me because no one was quite sure how far they'd let Owens go in his indyriffic ways. The Package Piledriver tease was genius. The rematch was a mindless spotfest, but I liked it for what it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Some of this is starting to read like "you can only be into Cena if you're into modern WWE". Not what I meant at all, although a fair few of your issues with him so far (pregnant pauses, overdramatics, multiple finishers) seem to stem from the style rather than Cena himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Is it really the style or is it Cena though? He's the closest thing I've seen to wrestler-as-Hamlet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 I have a hard time believing that a promotion with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer can have such rich psychology; and even if it does, I the question the logic in using narratives that fly over the head of most viewers. There's enough context provided from the pre-match video packages and from the commentators that even if you can't appreciate the hidden layers you should still be able to enjoy the narrative on a surface level, but I can't because I think it's poorly executed. I do want to take back what I said about him not being able to work workrate matches as I just watched his bout with Rey Mysterio Jr again, which is a perfectly good workrate bout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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