soup23 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Wow Matt, #122? Big difference of opinion as I have that at #3 a fourth of the way in and see it as a solid top 20 contender. It felt like a blowoff match where violence and chaos is appreciated in my book. The Lawler tag may be another match that is a lot better in a group setting as it is fun as fuck watching jerry work FIP, miss the legdrop, Blackwell being a complete beast, Patera hanging, plus you can get retrospective on Mulligan since he is a guy you don't often see or think about too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'm always worried about my views being ridiculously far from consensus, but Matt D takes it next level. I enjoy reading his views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I get why people would like the Cage match, absolutely. It's not like the Rockers/Loverboys one from 86 which is an actively terrible match due to the creative decisions they made. This just isn't much of a match. It's a spectacle. Guys beat on each other without much rhyme or reason. Sure it's full of hate, but there just isn't direction to it. They don't use the hate and the violence to do anything interesting. To me, hate and violence are means to be used create a good match and not ends unto themselves. There is no difference to me between violence/stiffness/blood and spots/movez. They're all things to be used to tell a story. Just like selling and bumping and stooging and everything else. Just a tool. If used well, excellent. But I'm not going to rate a match highly against other great matches just because they're used at all and because they make me mark out in the moment. Obviously, other people feel differently. That's ok. It's like cotton candy with broken glass in it. I like story. It's not there. I won't fault anyone for liking the Da Crusher/Gagne cage match because it's visceral and violent. Some people dig that. It might even have been the right match for the moment. That doesn't, to me, make it better than matches that have better structures and more interesting narratives even if it was the RIGHT match for the time. I'm well past the point of worrying, Parv. Wrestling isn't objective. I value things differently than other people do and like to think I back up my opinions for the most part. I'm consistent if nothing else. I'm glad you enjoy reading the views and I hope they at least make sense and you can track them. I have two cage matches in my working top ten and they are the two that tell the best story and also two that use the cage to tell a better story with better execution than at least 140 other matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Looking over the match listings, I assume one of those cage matches is one we have already seen Matt? If so which one? I don't want to dig too far into the DVDVR too short folder to muddle my feelings on upcoming matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 King Tonga, Masked Superstar, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter (Cage Match) (4/21/85) is sitting at #3 for me. I have the second Rockers vs Rose/Somers cage match, which does all the things the first one did right but fixes the brutally egregious structure issues at #10 currently. Of what you've seen so far, I've got East-West vs High Flyers (Cage) as my working 50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I have two cage matches in my working top ten and they are the two that tell the best story and also two that use the cage to tell a better story with better execution than at least 140 other matches.I saw Starrcage last night (I see you mention is as your #3 in your next post). I love everything about it except the crowd. I underestimated the crowd on first watch and argued with Dylan about it. They were slightly better on second watch. There was a little "U.S.A" chant going for Sarge during his FIP segment, they seemed to enjoy Eadie's stooging, and popped massively for the finish. Everything else was incredibly subpar from the crowd. I hate that something like that becomes an issue for me because it does. I never got excited enough when watching the match. There was no energy and it kind of pissed me off. When Blackwell tried to start another "U.S.A." chant there was no response. I still love the match but goddammit I'm such a fucking a crowd mark that I can't stop thinking about this shit. It's just wrestling dammit. I think two things could have contributed to the lack of crowd reaction: 1). The match may have had too much structure for a live crowd - Now this is something I don't want to believe because I thought the structure here was completely necessary and warranted. Maybe they were expecting something similar to the Blackwell cage match from 84? Guys just getting tossed around. Violence for the sake of violence as you say. But I do see an argument for that. I think it's very possible the crowd didn't quite get what they wanted until the very end when Blackwell nailed the big splash on Adnan which finally got a big pop for the match. 2). The second theory I have and is one that I might be more inclined to believe is the fact that Verne Gagne was piledriven on concrete minutes before and kayfabe seriously injured. Could that have possibly killed the crowd? Big angles or big matches have before and have hurt other matches because of it. I mean could there have been some uncomfortable fans who were all sad and shit and didn't care quite as much about Blackwell getting back at Adnan? I don't know but there's a strong possibility. I have no idea why I posted this other than to write my thoughts about that crowd and that match where more people would read it instead of at DVDVR where I'm just sort of talking to myself. I seriously do get bugged badly by lackluster crowds. It's such a big deal in my wrestling viewing. I hate even bringing it up about this match because it was so great. I just want to know WHY that crowd wasn't reacting to that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'm not even sure I noticed the crowd in that match. I did in the Hogan + High Flyers six man, so it's not like I never do, but a crowd might only work as a positive to me and not a negative. Neither here nor there, but when JvK hits the hour long Bock vs Hennig match, I want him to break it down with all of his academic trope tools. I'd want to read that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'm not even sure I noticed the crowd in that match. I did in the Hogan + High Flyers six man, so it's not like I never do, but a crowd might only work as a positive to me and not a negative.Dylan said pretty much the exact same thing. I mean if the crowd's great it doesn't always mean a match is great to me. I enjoyed Hogan-Saito. The crowd was great but I have that pretty low. I guess what makes a totally awesome, tremendous match for me is if the work AND the crowd is great. I can still think highly of a match with great, great work (Starrcage, which is ironically my active #3 but I'm only a third way through the set) and a great crowd with very good work becomes a great match for me. I literally watch every match determining a part of it's stance on whether or not the crowd is actually getting ME more enthralled into the match. Every single match I ever watch is like that. I guess I'm the crowd guy then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I think the crowd can really help make a match. If they aren't buying what the wrestlers are selling it can hurt a match for me. To me wrestlers jobs are to draw money, and to engage the crowd. All things being equal I'll always pick a match with a hot crowd over the one that isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 5535124[/url]'] Wow Matt, #122? Big difference of opinion as I have that at #3 a fourth of the way in and see it as a solid top 20 contender. It felt like a blowoff match where violence and chaos is appreciated in my book. The Lawler tag may be another match that is a lot better in a group setting as it is fun as fuck watching jerry work FIP, miss the legdrop, Blackwell being a complete beast, Patera hanging, plus you can get retrospective on Mulligan since he is a guy you don't often see or think about too much. I would agree with you except that I saw this one before, loved it, and I was all by my lonesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'll definitely rewatch the Lawler tag. I didn't love the Lawler/Dundee tag from later in the set, but I tend to love Lawler. Lawler vs Kerry is in my top 20. I just think his best AWA-related matches might have occurred in Memphis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I liked the Lawler/Mulligan tag a lot better on rewatch, I just wish Lawler had a better partner. Also while I am not as down on Da Crusher/Gagne Cage Match as Matt, I have been pretty shocked at people tossing it around as an absolute upper tier match. I can love a competitive squash as much as the next guy, and the match featured a great big bumping performance from Blackwell, but when I start comparing this to other stuff on the set I'm high on I don't really think it's all that close. I'm guessing it will finish in my top half, but I'm not positive it will be in my upper third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 I also wish Lawler had a better partner but Mulligan was there for the hot tags and the nice lariat at the end. Good enough for me. That Gagne/Crusher cage match was awesome. Especially when you had match after match of Kaissey abusing people with the cast to get his comeuppance and bloodied to hell with his own cast. That is AMerican justice right there. Add Blackwell bumping his ass off, the faces being completely sadistic and it remains a favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victory Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 Finally caught up with the third podcast. Great job again guys! The guy that you referred to as Captain Kangaroo is Al Derusha. He also had a son that was a ref named Gary. Those red jackets were awful even back then. I heard you guys ask where that Lawler match took place. It was at the Rosemont Horizon in Rosemont, Illinois ( suburb outside of Chicago). The match that had Tootsie was from Green Bay. No idea of the venue name. Look forward to the next one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 The Rosemont makes sense. That is a beautiful looking venue on camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victory Posted February 14, 2013 Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 The Rosemont makes sense. That is a beautiful looking venue on camera. I probably should of mentioned its called the Allstate Arena now. I've seen everything from wrestling to monster truck shows there. I wish there was more of the AWA at that venue available. Kinda cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 Just listened to the first 30 minutes or so of this driving home. Honestly swerved on the motorway from losing my shit at the ressurection of Johnny's popeye impression. Shoe has been really good so far. Loved him giving Will shit about Lawler and flying the flag for Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 Hey thanks. Later in the show Johnny does an impression of you asking him if he's 60. LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Oh man, that was hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I'm curious if anyone could speak to the experience of watching wrestling while also talking the whole time. Do you feel like you're missing anything? Do you miss the announcing? I don't think I could do it, but I'm glad that some people can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I have already watched the matches . So I went on their to just shoot the shit. When I'm watching wrestling I like to kinda watch it in a bubble. I like to lie on the floor by the t.v or to sit in my chair . Further more I like to make 1st impressions of a match by my self. I think you do miss out on the announcing , some of the nuances of the matches because you are saying something or listening to someone else speaking. With that said it's a lot of fun on discussing of the matches which sometimes get the short end because we aren't pausing to get our points across. The next match is already playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 Considering it's the AWA and the announcing was always kinda shitty, it's not a problem. And, like shoe, I've watched these already. Now, if these were Memphis shows I'd probably miss hearing Lance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I have been synching up with Phil for years now watching wrestling. It doesn't affect my view on the matches at all. From the two discs I have watched, my views mirrored my original thoughts 100% of the time, negative or positive. However, when you have a show scheduled, you know you have to be "on", it is relatively easy to talk and observe. Sometimes someone else can articulate what you are feeling so you aren't actually talking 100% of the time. Plus you can have fun with some buds. Nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I sound like Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins to you Johnny? I liked Will's analysis of the possible logic behind working different bodyparts. Very insightful. Just reached the half-way point now and am slightly jealous of the variety of wrestling that Shoe was exposed to as a kid. For some reason I'm only listening to this one in the car, so will not finish till I drive home later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted February 19, 2013 Report Share Posted February 19, 2013 I like AWA as the opportunity to synch up and watch the matches because A. Matches are relatively short and action packed. B. Commentary is not very good. ( I think either bad commentary or foreign commentary is optimal for me in watching these) C. Way that AWA aired things, sound of the crowd is muddled. The mixing on AWA is pretty bad, so when I am watching in a group I usually turn up the sound at certain points to hear the crowd, but then can turn it right back down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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