The Man They Call Vader

[NintendoLogic]

Vader came up a few times in the Bret/Flair thread, so I think it's high time for a thread dedicated to this glorious bastard. He's someone I've always liked, but after watching a bunch of him lately, he's firmly established in my Fave Five. Here's a starting point for discussion: Vader has the best offense of all time. Agree or disagree? If not, who would you put above him?

[JerryvonKramer]

I like Vader's offense a lot, especially his brutal punches in the turnbuckle spot.

 

"Best offense ever" is an interesting question. The guy who keeps coming back to my mind is Yoshiaki Yatsu, as seen on the 80s All Japan set. I really really dug his offensive arsenal. Around 85-7 he's just throwing bombs and slapping the shit out of people at 100 miles an hour every match. Plenty of times when it was Yatsu/Choshu vs. Jumbo/Tenryu he felt like the standout performer to me. Declines a bit once you get into the Revolution stuff and he's tagging with Jumbo.

 

Hansen's got to be up there.

 

Who else?

 

I think Vader's a strong pick for offense for sure.

[soup23]

Vader is someone that I keep coming back to as someone that if I made a GOAT list would have a shot at maybe cracking my top 10. I always knew about how great he was in WCW and that stuff holds up wonderfully but in the past year I have seen him have Duggans best match post 1986, the best shoot style match I have ever seen, and a magnificent performance in my #2 AWA match of the 80's currently. I think Vader has more depth that what may be on the surface.

[Childs]

Vader's right up there as an offensive wrestler. Others that come to mind: Hansen, Liger, Benoit, Kobashi, Eaton, Danielson, El Dandy, Finlay, Billy Robinson, Dick Togo.

[soup23]

Childs beat to the punch but in the offensive discussion I wanted to bring up Eaton as he has a great varied offense.

 

Vader is certainly in the conversation though.

[Childs]

Really, most of the elite All-Japan guys could be in the discussion -- Misawa, Kawada, Jumbo.

[flyonthewall2983]

It's a damn shame that he was fired from WCW when he was. He could have had some legendary big man matches with guys like Tenta and Meng. Seeing him and a young Big Show do battle would have been great too.

[jdw]

Here's a starting point for discussion: Vader has the best offense of all time. Agree or disagree? If not, who would you put above him?

How do you define it?

[Graham Crackers]

One of my favorite wrestlers ever and I wouldn't hesitate to call him the best monster as well as the best fat guy in wrestling history though in the last few years I've found that the distance between him and other contenders for those titles isn't as far as I originally thought.

 

He's also a wrestler who I feel like I've seen so much of that I feel like I have a pretty good idea of how I feel about the individual chapters of his career.

 

-In the AWA he showed a lot of raw potential. The Hansen match was in my top 20 and while that's mainly a testament to Hansen's skill he brings some impressive athleticism. I'd actually like to have seen him as a babyface a few more times in his career.

-He was already pretty awesome in late 80s NJPW. I dug the big Inoki singles match from 88, the Hashimoto tournament match and the sprinty Choshu brawl. The Mutoh match from 91 is great but I need to see more of his early 90s work because I remember being really put off by how much he and Bigelow let the Steiners toss them around.

-I fucking loved the matches against Otto Wanz in the CWA but I'm a sucker for superheavyweight slugfests.

-WCW Vader is my favorite Vader. I specifically like the Sting, Dustin, and Traylor matches. The Ron Simmons title change is something I have watched a dozen times. Outside of Race interfering a few too many times he was a pretty well booked until Hogan came along. Still, the first Hogan match is pretty great.

-I really dislike Vader doing shoot style. I liked it when I was first getting introduced to the style but now when I watch those matches the big moves and especially the choke slams look too cooperative.

-He was completely misused in WWF and the HBK match sucks but the Final Four match and the No Holds Barred match against Ken Shamrock are some of the best WWF matches of the 90s.

-I feel like he was occasionally a little too generous with his offense in AJPW but the first Misawa singles match is on par with the Vader vs Sting series. I really dislike the Kobashi matches. He was a bit broken down in NOAH but never looked too bad either. People always talk about how disappointing the Vader vs Taue match from AJPW is but I really like the NOAH iteration of that matchup. The Scorpio tag team had a few fun matches even if they never had a MOTYC.

[Childs]

I love the Vader shootstyle matches; I just don't think of them as shootstyle matches. They're Vader matches.

[ohtani's jacket]

Vader was awful at shoot style.

[Wolfman]

He should have had one WWF Title run, imo. I always held a grudge against Hogan/WCW that they basically killed his character there when Hogan no-sold his power bomb. Nasty moonsault too!

[flyonthewall2983]

WWF hiring him feels more like they got him because they were licking their chops after WCW raided their talent pool. He worked as well as he could, and had some great matches, but I blame the company more for not knowing how to utilize him. He would have been great in ECW, but he must have been way above their pay grade compared to what he would get in Japan and other places.

[Guest Andrews]

Vader was class in WCW and Japan. When I was growing up he was on top as heel in WCW - and I thought he was far scarier than anybody on the WWF roster for sure. I remember being stunned when Sting couldn't beat him and then Ron Simmons did out of nowhere.

 

He started off so strong in WWF, but IMO they fucked it up by March, two months into his run. Putting him in Wrestlemania in a 6 man tag was a joke. He should have been in a prominent match - if Razor wasn't suspended - the match they had a month later at IYH 7 would have been ideal, with the same outcome.

 

Through 1997 and 1997 he found himself in that odd place where he could main even a Raw or a PPV, but he was never considered a true top liner. By 1998, he had been turned into a joke (despite remaining over - check out Royal Rumble 1998). By the time Over the Edge rolled around, and he was declaring himself "a fat piece of shit" after losing a mask vs mask match - despite the fact he took his mask of at will many, many times - and you can bloody make out all of his facial features with the thing on anyway, it was game over.

 

Run in Japan with NOAH up to 2000 was OK, but his prime was long passed.

[Dylan Waco]

Best offensive wrestlers would probably make a good thread in and of itself

[Guest Andrews]

Best offensive wrestlers would probably make a good thread in and of itself

Not sure how it would be defined though. Stuff that looks like it hurt but didn't (by all account, Bret Hart's punching), stuff that looked brutal but DID hurt (Vader breaking Foley's face so bad it had to be edited for TV)...

[soup23]

Is there a consensus on the best Vader match? I would assume one of the matches with Sting but I'm not sure which one is most preferred.

[flyonthewall2983]

Far from a clinic, but his Starrcade match with Flair rates highly for me. There's a thread on it in the '93 yearbook and I explain my feelings why. But Sting was by far his best opponent in WCW, and maybe in North America since he never really clicked with anyone like that again once he went to the WWF.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I love Vader, but I always felt he bumped too much, and let too many guys throw him around. There's no way the likes of Owen Hart should be slamming him, in a pretty meaningless match to boot.

[NintendoLogic]

I'd say his best match was the King of Cable finals, with the 92 Bash right behind. I'd rate the Dome match with Misawa, the Clash matches with Dustin and Bulldog, and the G1 match with Mutoh as his best non-Sting matches.

 

What do people think was his best WWF match? I think it might be the quasi-UWFi match with Shamrock. I need to rewatch Final Four and the six-man from International Incident.

[WingedEagle]

I watched Vader vs. Sting from the Bash on the '92 Yearbook yesterday and it really is remarkable how much better their matches are than with anyone else. Somehow they just never clicked with anyone else the way they did with each other.

 

Vader sells Sting's offense as a giant killer -- but only when he has to. Sells his chops, lariats and punches as killer while sending him to the floor, but he's not out there playing the bitch (don't shoot me, it was too easy). He regroups on the floor or counters with a power move and is back to dominating before being put over strong.

[Guest Andrews]

I remember the matches being very exciting at the time, albeit I haven't watched them back in years.

[Superstar Sleeze]

I agree that Vader brought the best out of Sting, but I think Vader had plenty of great matches in Japan and in WCW with a variety of opponents.

 

Vader vs Sting - Vacant WCW World International Heavyweight Championship Slamboree 1994

 

I will give WCW credit at least they came up with a bogus committee to recognize this championship. Who recognizes the World Heavyweight Championship in WWE as the championship now that the brand split is dead? It is silly.

 

This is the definitely the least of their PPV matches, but still really good and if lets say Bam Bam Bigelow had this match it would pointed to how good Bam Bam is. Vader & Sting had just raised the bar that high for themselves. They start off very cautious almost as if this is their first encounter. Now, maybe you could see this as Sting thinking he was going to fight Rude and Vader was a last minute substitute so both combatants are apprehensive because it is strange. It is very methodical for a Sting/Vader match, but at least it makes it different. "Sting Must Die" - the crowd lets us know we are in Philly. Vader's chest bump thing he does is just an awesome move and that the transition to the Vader Bomb and then some focused mat work on Sting's leg. They go into the usual Sting hope spots with Vader dominating most of the match before a ref bump. Vader delivers a nasty chokeslam, but eats a chair from Harley. Harley definitely had a hard time letting go just like Flair is now. Harley needs to mentor Flair on how to get old.

 

Vader catches Sting on the Stinger Splash and throws him down. Spot of the match as it looked great. Vadersault misses, which is an awesome sight. Harley headbutts Vader and flying splash by Sting (always liked how out of control he looked on it.) At 14 minutes, I think this is the shortest Vader/Sting match. They did not wrestle a sprint, but it was still a good match, but below Zbyszko/Regal and the Cactus&Sullivan/Nasties brawl. I'd put it on par with the Dustin/Buck match from this card. Just a solid outing from two guys with ridiculous chemistry.

[King Solomon]

I'm a sucker for any wrestler that has fast twitch explosiveness and Vader had that in spades. His offensive was high impact and he had a suddeness to him. I also like his AWA matches with Hansen. I would have really loved to see Vader hit the U.S. a little earlier than he did with that gimmick. JCP coulda used some fresh faces in 88 and even though Vader still wasn't polished he woulda been a plus to that stale roster.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I just watched Kenta Kobashi v. Vader from 2000. That match was easily 4 1/4 stars. Holy cow. Vader's just this big, fat ass trucker driver type who just enjoys brutally pounding the crap out of Kobashi, while Kobashi never quits. Once Vader realizes that, he starts increasing his punishment, which only further inflames Kobashi's warrior ethos. Excellent match.

 

EDIT: "Kenta Kobashi beat Big Van Vader with a lariat in 19:49. This was a disappointing match. Vader is one of the stiffest dudes ever and took it pretty light on Kobashi. He didn't hit any really big suplexes and he didn't really strike Kobashi like I had hoped. The same went for Kobashi. He got very little in and mostly stuck to selling. The story of the match was Vader working Kobashi's hurt ribs and then Kobashi making a comeback to win. Vader's rib work was smart but it didn't really kick in until he started doing Vader Bombs. Those were good but after that, he didn't bother so much with them.. The match also really didn't have enough time and didn't use the time it had wisely enough. A 20 minute Vader/Kobashi match should have been a shootout, but honestly, it was slow for the first half. A longer match could have fixed this and could have done some of the bigger moves and sequences that I had expected. This was honestly disappointing but the crowd was into it. Rating:***1/4"

 

Interesting review. Obviously the reviewer is much more familiar with Puroresu than me, so his standards are different. I felt what made the match, besides the stiffness, was precisely Kobashi's selling. I don't think Kobashi assaulted Vader in the greatest of ways, but Vader's offense was very brutal. What struck me most is when Vader picked up Kenta and just dropped his ribs on the guard rail. Funnily enough, Vader NEVER worked this stiff in WWE, even against Ken Shamrock.