Things in kayfabe that you can't believe still happens

[Matt D]

Rey is very good at getting guys into that position though.

[MJH]

I just wish, for once, he'd do it with the guy using the ropes to get to their feet and timing it so they're in position when he kicks them. Ditto Booker T's/whomever's scissor kick when the guy stays hunched over, rather than collapsing to the ground and getting up hunched over in position. Are crowds really so slow as to need the guy to be chest-on-ropes for them to go "oh, 619!"?

[NintendoLogic]

Rey is very good at getting guys into that position though.

Doing a headscissors or drop toehold to drape someone over the middle rope isn't really that impressive.

[Jimmy Redman]

I just wish, for once, he'd do it with the guy using the ropes to get to their feet and timing it so they're in position when he kicks them. Ditto Booker T's/whomever's scissor kick when the guy stays hunched over, rather than collapsing to the ground and getting up hunched over in position. Are crowds really so slow as to need the guy to be chest-on-ropes for them to go "oh, 619!"?

Rey has done it that way quite a few times. One example being the Cena match from Raw.

 

On the set ups though, to me it makes perfect sense that, if you have a really effective move that you can do if your opponent is draped over the rope, wouldn't you think up and perfect at least a couple of ways to maneuver guys into that position so you can do it? Like, doing it when it presents itself is fine, but taking the off chance that a guy will crawl up the ropes and be in the right position during the match doesn't seem a very high percentage strategy. A guy will work the leg to set up his leg submission finish. Why can't Rey work during a match to put a guy in position for his finisher?

 

Not to mention, in regards to JVK, the 619 is not the only move that guys drape the second rope for. Christian's 'stand on the guy - jump to floor - slap' move, Jericho's running leg lariat thing, Austin used the same move, Henry's neck snap where he jumps to the floor. And this is just modern WWE examples, I'm sure there are others. But somehow it is never a stock criticism of, say, Chris Jericho that "it is so contrived that guys lay on the second rope for him to do his move", like it is with Rey.

 

And to the second part, it isn't about crowds being stupid, but obvious cues to the crowd are what WWE babyface style is based on. They all have signature moves that involve some sort of signal/build up/positional set up to indicate to the audience that it is coming, so they pop. You may find it a flawed style, but it is WWE's, not Rey's, and everybody does it.

[Death From Above]

619 has always been totally terrible and if anyone but Mysterio had tried to take it big time it wouldn't be accepted, but Mysterio is Mysterio.

[JerryvonKramer]

Not to mention, in regards to JVK, the 619 is not the only move that guys drape the second rope for. Christian's 'stand on the guy - jump to floor - slap' move, Jericho's running leg lariat thing, Austin used the same move, Henry's neck snap where he jumps to the floor. And this is just modern WWE examples, I'm sure there are others. But somehow it is never a stock criticism of, say, Chris Jericho that "it is so contrived that guys lay on the second rope for him to do his move", like it is with Rey.

 

And to the second part, it isn't about crowds being stupid, but obvious cues to the crowd are what WWE babyface style is based on. They all have signature moves that involve some sort of signal/build up/positional set up to indicate to the audience that it is coming, so they pop. You may find it a flawed style, but it is WWE's, not Rey's, and everybody does it.

Hey now, my example was Bossman. I just mentioned Rey in passing.

 

My main point with those spots is that they are "unnatural" positions of proneness. You only EVER see guys in those positions before taking the move. I don't know what the solution would be: encourage guys to hang over the rope at other, more incidental, times in other matches? A big ask, but it would make the spots less glaring.

 

To go back to my Bossman example, the move in question is:

 

The leapfrog body guillotine to an opponent draped over the middle rope

 

I've mentioned before that both Ivan Koloff and Mad Dog Vachon also used to do that spot and somehow it never comes across as contrived as when Bossman does it. I think X-Pac did a variation on it too and I don't recall his version being as glaring either.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here you go, pretty good example of what I mean:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...m9VS43Hqw#t=56s

 

He's called it a "Rope Hung Running Legdrop" there.

 

Notice how the guy actually has to get into position to take the move. Happens in so many Bossman matches. I think it's kayfabe-breaking in how bad it looks.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's another time he does it (random), where it doesn't look quite as bad:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlhZITvDiqk...tailpage#t=261s

 

There the setup is him actually choking the guy on the rope and he's still sort of gagging as he's coming over for the legdrop. Still not brilliant, but much better than in the first example.

[Jimmy Redman]

Going off the first video, that is actually the same move that I mentioned that Jericho and Austin do. So add another guy to the list that people drape themselves on the second rope for.

 

To me, I don't think the second rope moves are any more contrived than any other move where a guy is in an unnatural position or has to wait around forever for something. The scissor kick has already been covered. What about all the moves that require a guy to lay on the floor prone for like half a minute while you get your dance in? The ones that require a guy to throw a line just to get ducked then keep running and bounce off the ropes back into whatever move (like Orton's powerslam)? The ones that require you to slowly get to your feet and turn around into your doom, when in reality you'd never stand up that way at any other time? The ones that require you to attempt a move you have never used before in your life just so someone can use their signature counter (Don't Powerbomb Kidman Syndrome)? What about the one where the guy leapfrogs/Bryan Flips out of the corner, which requires the opponent to randomly sprint face first into the corner without attempting any kind of move?

 

You can pick apart the set ups for the vast majority of moves I think, if you wanted to.

[JerryvonKramer]

What about all the moves that require a guy to lay on the floor prone for like half a minute while you get your dance in

They are bad.

 

The ones that require a guy to throw a line just to get ducked then keep running and bounce off the ropes back into whatever move (like Orton's powerslam)?

I'd argue that this is conventional enough to be considered "part of wrestling logic". It's just one of those things: that in wrestling after an Irish Whip guys just keep running until they explicitly break it with the ropes, or get hit, or pull off a dropkick or something.

 

I don't know if the line and ducking are really necessary though. If the move you are talking about is a scoop powerslam then loads of guys do that move. If Orton requires a ducked clothesline every single time he does it, then he's introducing a level of contrivance that doesn't need to be there. The only setup required is an Irish Whip / or that the guy is already from some other cause:

 

Here's my man Ted DiBiase doing one

 

Looking for examples on youtube of Orton doing that move, it doesn't look like he always requires the ducked clothesline:

 

- arguably quite an innovative use of a scoop powerslam

 

- the ducked clothesline is only there once or twice.

 

The ducked clothesline isn't bad in and of itself, but would be if it happened in every single Orton match. Ultimately, I think that guys keeping on running from the momentum of an Irish Whip is not a contrivance in wrestling.

 

The ones that require you to slowly get to your feet and turn around into your doom, when in reality you'd never stand up that way at any other time?

I think they are really bad, and one of the things I think is a problem in the current style because there's much too much of this sort of egregious nonsense. I went to an Indy show a while back where every other move was like this.

 

Suplex. Slowly rise FOR AN AGE. Some superkick variation. Suplex variation #194. Slowly rise FOR AN AGE. Superkick variation #43.

 

What happened to:

 

Suplex. Stomp. Elbow drop. Knee drop. Maybe a chinlock now?

 

I really dislike the "slowly rise to feet" element that has crept into wrestling. It's bad.

 

The ones that require you to attempt a move you have never used before in your life just so someone can use their signature counter (Don't Powerbomb Kidman Syndrome)?

Yep, bad too.

 

 

What about the one where the guy leapfrogs/Bryan Flips out of the corner, which requires the opponent to randomly sprint face first into the corner without attempting any kind of move?

This one can be explained that they are going for charge in the corner. A GOOD wrestler will make it look like they are attempting some sort of offense. A BAD wrestler will make it look like they are just setting up their opponent's move.

[Jimmy Redman]

The ones that require a guy to throw a line just to get ducked then keep running and bounce off the ropes back into whatever move (like Orton's powerslam)?

I'd argue that this is conventional enough to be considered "part of wrestling logic". It's just one of those things: that in wrestling after an Irish Whip guys just keep running until they explicitly break it with the ropes, or get hit, or pull off a dropkick or something.

 

I don't know if the line and ducking are really necessary though. If the move you are talking about is a scoop powerslam then loads of guys do that move. If Orton requires a ducked clothesline every single time he does it, then he's introducing a level of contrivance that doesn't need to be there. The only setup required is an Irish Whip / or that the guy is already from some other cause:

 

Here's my man Ted DiBiase doing one

 

Looking for examples on youtube of Orton doing that move, it doesn't look like he always requires the ducked clothesline:

 

- arguably quite an innovative use of a scoop powerslam

 

- the ducked clothesline is only there once or twice.

 

The ducked clothesline isn't bad in and of itself, but would be if it happened in every single Orton match. Ultimately, I think that guys keeping on running from the momentum of an Irish Whip is not a contrivance in wrestling.

 

It is a part of Orton's comeback routine. Clothesline, heel up, clothesline, heel up and throws clothesline, Orton ducks, heel runs the ropes, bounces off and into Orton's powerslam.

 

He also does it in isolation and as a counter to other things, of course, but his everyday formula involves a heel throwing a clothesline that misses and then running the ropes, which is something they would never ever do at any other time, to get back to the point.

 

This is it:

 

My point from the last post was not to suggest that those other kinds of set ups are good or bad, my point is that loads of set ups are contrived to some degree, and thus I don't think the second rope draping set up is any more contrived than loads of others. But it is the one that gets singled out more than any others, especially as a stock criticism of Rey Mysterio.

[goc]

None of that is as bad as having moves that you NEVER hit. Like how Bubba Ray used to always miss a senton and Flair always went up to the top rope just to get slammed off. It would be like having a guy in the NBA go for a dunk every game and never ever make it.

[El-P]

Flair always went up to the top rope just to get slammed off.

Flair did hit the move regularly when he was working fiery babyface style. Of course the ratio is ridiculously low, but at least it's not a 0% success rate.

[Matt D]

It's an issue, regardless. Far more than Rey's positioning of guys which is something he actively and logically shoots for. His offense is set up in order to do that. From a kayfabe perspective, he conspires and even sacrifices better offensive positioning in order to set up guys for that since it's such a killer move for him. At first I was annoyed on principle but after actually watching a lot of matches I ended up impressed not annoyed.

 

I think the "Flair won the NWA world title with a flying body press" logic is very, very weak, however, even weaker than Everyone Powerbombs Kidman because hell, I'd want to powerbomb Kidman too if I had the chance.

 

One of my favorite wrestling moments (and I've mentioned this before) was seeing Tully hit a prone smash with a double axe handle from the second rope since that somehow validated every time someone randomly jumped into someone's foot. at least someone it hit once.

[Loss]

Not that either is a particularly great thing, but it makes far more sense for a delusional heel to repeatedly try a move that they can never hit than it does for someone to maneuver themselves into an unnatural ring position that they would never do against any other opponent so they can feed a babyface offense. I love Rey, but I hate the 619. I agree that it's a WWE style thing more than a Rey thing. The same thing was true of moves like the Bronco Buster and the Stinkface in the Attitude era.

[goc]

Yea but the Bronco Buster & the Stinkface were a lot worse because X-Pac and Rikishi never really did anything interesting to get someone in that position. At least Rey works at doing it in different ways in big matches or long feuds.

[Sidebottom]

I used the like Kishi walking away from his opponents and then realising they have dropped to the position by the pop of the crowd, followed by a slow turn. It was proper panto!

[NintendoLogic]

Rey's opponents don't maneuver themselves onto the rope, Rey puts them there. Honestly, the biggest problem with the 619 is that the guy lays prone long enough for Rey to run the length of the ring and back. I just can't buy Rey's offense leaving someone incapacitated for that long.

[Loss]

I've seen quite a few matches where a Rey opponent stammers around and then drops to their knees on the middle rope. There was no specific move Rey did to put them in that position.

[El-P]

Vampiro did powerbomb Kidman on many occasions. Rewatching those WCW years, I ended up not ebing annoyed that much by that Kidman spot. I was, however, very annoyed by Booker T's lazy setup for his ridiculously delayed axe kick.

The W.O.R.M. may be the most annoying spot ever. It should never hit his mark.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm not saying that never happens, but Rey does actively set his opponent up the majority of the time. In any event, the 619 and Flair getting thrown off the top are both terrible.

[El-P]

A 619 throwing Flair off the tope rope would be the greatest bad spot ever.

[JerryvonKramer]

At least Flair sometimes hits that move off the top. There are spots that never ever hit. When did DiBiase ever hit the second-rope double axe-handle? (for example)

 

I'm with Loss, however, that someone maneuvering themselves into an unnatural position is worse because it is more kayfabe breaking.

 

You can reason out why the heel keeps going for the same move that fails. Why does Wile E. Cyote keep trying to get Road Runner? Why does Dick Dastardly keep cheating to try to win the race? Villains are prone to being delusional and pig-headed and repeating the same mistakes again and again.

 

There's no way of really explaining what why someone is getting themselves into a position to take some signature offense though. That said, I don't really understand why there's so much focus on Rey specifically in this thread. Perhaps people just like talking about Rey and this is a nice pretext for it.

[Matt D]

For the last many years Rey's matches have been laid out around him trying to get guys into the 619 position. It's a narrative thrust to almost every match he's had for the last what, five years? When he was first using it, I do think people stumbled in there but now, whole swaths of his matches are consciously built around him trying to position guys and people countering or not. It's very, very overt and hardly people stumbling into position anymore.

 

Now, that might not be interesting to you as a match-watcher, and that's fine, but it's as logical and organic in his matches as armwork in an Arn Anderson match both in concept and execution.

 

Trust me, I started watching wrestling again in 09 and I was expecting to absolutely hate all the 619 stuff when I saw Rey and i was floored by how well put together his matches were being that they were all centered around him trying to position his opponent for the 619.

[Death From Above]

Its not even so much the setup I dislike, as much as the move itself. It's a silly dance move on par with the worst parts of Ricky Stemboat (and addmitedly, there aren't many bad things about him) where he'd try and do something "graceful" and it just looks terrible.

 

This is not, by any means, an exclusive Rey problem mind you. He's just what came up. There are a lot of modern things about wrestling that look too much like ballet for my tastes. And So You Think You Can Dance has way hotter girls, if dance is what your TV viewing is going to be about.