Ranking the luchadores

[ohtani's jacket]

OK, so I've worked my way back into watching a fair bit of lucha again and since there's some excitement over the DVDVR 80s set, I thought I'd give this ago. I'm bound to forget some names, but here's what I've got:

 

All-Time Greats

 

Satanico, El Dandy, Negro Casas, El Hijo del Santo, Blue Panther

 

Great Workers

 

Emilio Charles, Jr., Atlantis, Pirata Morgan, Solar, Lizmark, Black Terry, Negro Navarro, Virus, Sangre Chicana, Villano III

 

Excellent Workers

 

Cassandro, Espanto Jr., MS-1, La Fiera, Fuerza Guerrera, El Signo, Dos Caras

 

Strong Hands

 

Angel Azteca, Perro Aguayo, Villano IV, Villano V, Dr. Cerebro, Apolo Dantes, Javier Cruz, Black Man, Herodes, Ringo Mendoza, Mocho Cota, El Faraon, El Texano, Silver King, Gran Cochise, Americo Rocca, Dr. Wagner, Jr., LA Park, Los Brazos, Valiente, Demus 3:16, Pierrothito, Los Traumas, Felino, Ciclon Ramirez, Cicloncito Ramirez, Bestia Salvaje

 

Solid Hands

 

Sergio El Hermoso, Ultraman, Super Astro, Freelance, Chico Che, Espectro Jr, Hombre Bala, Maskare, Tony Salazar, Psicosis, Pierroth

 

This was really hard. I'll add more as I think of them.

[Loss]

I'm surprised you only see Psicosis as a decent hand. He strikes me as someone who would either be in excellent workers or strong hands.

[Dylan Waco]

The five you have up top would also be my top five luchadores and all of them would rate in my top twenty-five of all time (if not top twenty).

 

I actually see almost nothing on here I would have any major disagreement with other than perhaps the term "decent hands" for the last category, but you are a tougher grader than me and that seems almost worthless to argue over.

 

I am curious where you would rate Los Traumas (I'd probably put them in the Strong Hands camp myself or at least within that tiering system as you have it constructed), Super Astro (I'm actually not a huge fan, but I know some people love him) and Atlantis (maybe the most polarizing luchadore ever in some ways and someone I have no fixed opinion on). I don't dare ask you where you would rate Estrada

 

Edit: Just realized I missed Atlantis on the first scan through what you had, but now I want to hear your argument for him in that category

 

Edit 2: Did you edit in Astro or am I fucking crazy and missed him on the first half dozen times I scanned through this too?

[Eduardo]

I'm a bit pleasantly surprised to see you have El Hijo Del Santo on your top-tier. Like Dylan said before me, those would also be my top five picks.

 

How much Javier Llanes is out there? The very little I've seen of him is still enough for me to rank him at least in the "Strong Hands" category.

 

EDIT: Interested in hearing your thoughts on Los Hermanos Dinamita/Los Capos and Rayo De Jalisco Jr.

[Tim Evans]

I'm surprised Skyade is not on the list of Strong hands or even Excellent workers. I'd also like to see your thoughts on Rambo. The Villano III series of matches is really great. Especially the mask vs mask match Alfredo posted on Youtube the other day. That match was just a bloody bloody brawl and was great

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm surprised you only see Psicosis as a decent hand. He strikes me as someone who would either be in excellent workers or strong hands.

Psicosis was a hugely charismatic heel who had some fantastic comedy spots like when he'd deliberately slip on the apron and berate the crowd for laughing at him, and he was as crazy a bumper as Pirata Morgan, Emilio or Cassandro, but mechanically I think he's the worst of anyone on the list. He wasn't a great mat worker and a lot of the time his offence was sloppy.

 

I actually see almost nothing on here I would have any major disagreement with other than perhaps the term "decent hands" for the last category, but you are a tougher grader than me and that seems almost worthless to argue over.

A decent hand to me is someone who is better than average. Everyone I listed is a worker I'd go out of my way to see if I found them in a match on YouTube. I decided not to include any negative categories.

 

EDIT: I changed "decent" to "solid" to more accurately describe the workers.

 

I am curious where you would rate Los Traumas (I'd probably put them in the Strong Hands camp myself or at least within that tiering system as you have it constructed), Super Astro (I'm actually not a huge fan, but I know some people love him) and Atlantis (maybe the most polarizing luchadore ever in some ways and someone I have no fixed opinion on). I don't dare ask you where you would rate Estrada

Los Traumas are in there under the strong hands category. Super Astro was always in there. I like Super Astro but Super Astro has his schtick and he does it in every single match. That's his thing. It's fun schtick and it's crowd pleasing and it works just about every time, but I'd take Super Porky over him every time for variety of schtick. Estrada ain't making my list, but I've seen good Jerry Estrada matches so I won't shit on him right now.

 

As for Atlantis, I think he's one of the greatest technico trios workers of all-time, a role I think is much more difficult than being a great rudo worker. I think he's one of the great classical masked luchadores and before he toned down his in-ring style I think he was a pretty sensational worker. My biggest criticism of him is that he wasn't the greatest singles worker. He only really has the two Panther matches from '91 and '97 and the Villano match from 2000 as his great singles matches with possibly the El Faraon match being on that level and maybe the late 80s Emilio Charles match, despite having ample opportunity to work both title and apuestas matches. His singles matches are usually worth watching, but a lot of them are in that three star range. There's probably some good ones that are lost to us, but generally speaking he impresses me most in trios. There was a period where you could have two or three great rudo workers vs. Atlantis and just about anybody and it would be a good trios match. He's also pretty good these days, though he generally wrestles a bunch of guys I have no interest in watching.

 

I'm a bit pleasantly surprised to see you have El Hijo Del Santo on your top-tier. Like Dylan said before me, those would also be my top five picks.

 

How much Javier Llanes is out there? The very little I've seen of him is still enough for me to rank him at least in the "Strong Hands" category.

 

EDIT: Interested in hearing your thoughts on Los Hermanos Dinamita/Los Capos and Rayo De Jalisco Jr.

Yeah, I was trying to be objective with the top guys. As you know, I have issues with Santo, Panther and Casas and am probably more enthusiastic about the second tier guys in general, but I can't really deny the legacy those three have built up. I haven't really seen enough Javier Llanes to know where to rate him. I like watching the Capos and Rayo, particularly Universo 2000, but I can't really rate them as top tier workers in good faith. Maybe if I watch a bit more of their 80s stuff, though that's never impressed me hugely. A bit more of Universo's later run might persuade me to put him in one of the categories. I'd rather hear your thoughts since we reviewed a lot of that together.

 

I'm surprised Skyade is not on the list of Strong hands or even Excellent workers. I'd also like to see your thoughts on Rambo. The Villano III series of matches is really great. Especially the mask vs mask match Alfredo posted on Youtube the other day. That match was just a bloody bloody brawl and was great

I'm sure there's a lot of people I've forgotten. Skyade is one of them, though I don't think I've seen that much of his actual work in Mexico. Rambo I would probably rate as a decent/solid hand. I didn't know Alfredo finally got a copy of that mask match. I'm off to watch it.

[ohtani's jacket]

Re: the Villano/Rambo match

 

The clipping hurt it a bit, but other than that I think it would take pride of place amongst the best brawls of the 80s. Villano bled a shitload and the third caida had some great moments of desperation. I liked the finish a lot more after Rambo unmasked and began complaining. So began a lifetime of being screwed over by Villano III.

[Sidebottom]

Santo and Blue Demon sum up lucha fo me, I don't think there have been any wo bigge lucha stars. These guys had comic books, films, toys... hey were a huge deal in mexico during their supemecy.

[Childs]

Santo and Blue Demon sum up lucha fo me, I don't think there have been any wo bigge lucha stars. These guys had comic books, films, toys... hey were a huge deal in mexico during their supemecy.

Yeah, but we have hardly any tape of their work. He's obviously not rating the biggest lucha stars.

[MikeCampbell]

The only one that strikes me (admittedly, far from an authority on Lucha workers) odd are Texano and Silver King being rated as strong hands. Some of the best Lucha tags and trios that I've seen have had Los Cowboys involved.

[Zenjo]

I'm definitely looking forward to discovering some of these guys on the lucha set.

 

Any thoughts on El Canek, Bestia Salvaje, Espectrito, Mascarita Sagrada?

 

It was only a couple of weeks ago that I noticed your Great Lucha Blog hidden away here. It would be cool if you could cut 'n' paste your reviews onto the 90's Yearbook match topics so that other people won't miss them as well.

[WingedEagle]

Seconding that request -- would be great to combine those resources.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not a big fan of Los Cowboys. Bestia was a fantastic worker around '92-93 and dependable later on. I totally forgot about him. He's a strong hand. Canek was mechanically good but lacked the kind of genius I like from workers. The minis were good workers but I really haven't seen enough from then. I've seen more Mascarita Dorada than Sagrada. I'd be tempted to list then on the strength of what I have seen, but there's a lot of one offs who could get in on that basis.

[stunning_grover]

Great thread.

 

I am wondering what ohtani’s jacket’s opinion on the following workers are (and if he would possibly consider including them on his list)…

 

Mid-1990s AAA workers…

Eddy Guerrero; Volador; Marabunta; Heavy Metal

Mid-1990s AAA isn’t that popular anymore nowadays, but I think some of those workers listed could possibly be considered solid hands.

 

Misc old school workers…

Talisman; Babe Face

Talisman is a strong hand, in my opinion.

[ohtani's jacket]

Good to see you round, grover.

 

I'm not a fan of Eddie's Mexico work. To me he was like a visiting American than a real luchador. He had some good moments but most of his stuff is just not lucha if you catch my drift. Volador and Misterioso aren't my cup of tea. They belong with the Shockers and the Mr. Niebla's of the world. I'd probably rate Rey Bucanero over all of those guys. Marabunta I've see very little of. Heavy Metal I thought was bad in AAA and then better later on.

 

Talisman I'm drawing a blank on. I need to wait for the set on him. Baby Face is okay but he's no Signo.

[stunning_grover]

Good to see you round, grover.

 

I'm not a fan of Eddie's Mexico work. To me he was like a visiting American than a real luchador. He had some good moments but most of his stuff is just not lucha if you catch my drift. Volador and Misterioso aren't my cup of tea. They belong with the Shockers and the Mr. Niebla's of the world. I'd probably rate Rey Bucanero over all of those guys. Marabunta I've see very little of. Heavy Metal I thought was bad in AAA and then better later on.

 

Talisman I'm drawing a blank on. I need to wait for the set on him. Baby Face is okay but he's no Signo.

Thanks.

 

I agree with most of your comments about the AAA guys. I haven't seen too much of Marabunta's work either, but from what I remember he was a fun rudo worker who would bump a lot.

 

Babe Face is indeed kind of a poor man's El Signo.

 

I'm curious what your opinion on Talisman will be when the lucha set comes out.

[goodhelmet]

I thought Baby Face was awesome on the 80s set. His feud with La Fiera kicked ass. I also rewatched the Baby Face vs. Gran Hamada match from the NJ set and I was completely wrong about that match. Baby Face sorta kinda does indeed rule.

[ohtani's jacket]

Okay, Lizmark moves up to the great workers category. I'd forgotten how great he was in AAA and I'm super high on the La Parka match I just watched for my blog. He's a guy who really needs to be appreciated more.

[pantherwagner]

Can't complain about your top 5 but I also think that Pirata and Emilio on their best day were better than Satanico, even though Satanico had a much better career as a worker and as a star.

 

I'd have put Espanto Jr. on the Great Workers but he didn't have the longevity of most of the rest and we don't have much 80s footage of him. But anybody that ever made Fray Tormenta look like he was awesome deserves the praise.

 

Surprised at your ranking of Virus. Not complaining, just surprised. Read it out loud and he seems to be an odd name out on the list.

 

Ringo is too high IMO. In the 90s I suffered through hours and hours of his Arena Coliseo midcard trios stuff with his shitty spin kick.

Texano, Silver King, Cruz maybe too low.

 

Talisman was awesome and he's a guy that you will really like. Very strong hand but I'd put him a small step below the guys you have as excellent.

[EricR]

I think Park should be bumped up to Excellent

 

Also think Hector Garza should be added to the bottom category, along with Cien Caras and Mascara Ano Dos Mil.

 

Javier Llanes is hard to rank as I'm pretty sure there are only like 12 matches of his to make tape.

[Dylan Waco]

I actually want someone to point me toward Garza's best stuff. I have really liked the guy at times, but I don't think I've ever seen him in a match where I thought he was the best guy in it. What are his best performances?

 

Park is a strange beast in that when he is clicking on all cylinders he is maybe my favorite guy in Lucha, but he has been in so many uninspired matches in AAA over the last few years it's unbelievable. I wouldn't argue against him moving up a tier or even two, but I can see the argument in having him where he is also.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm pretty high on Parka's early AAA stuff at the moment so he may move up soon.

 

With Garza, I feel like I've only really seen two parts of his career, the early trios stuff and then the later charismatic, heat magnet stuff. I have more of an impression of a guy like Apolo Dantes than Garza, so yeah match recommendations would be good.

 

Virus has been one of the best workers of the past decade or so, which is why I had him so high. I actually think he's the best guy in CMLL but doesn't get the push that others do.

 

I know there's a reason why I like Ringo, I'm just drawing a blank on it.

[Dylan Waco]

I said this on the podcast the other day, but Virus is probably the most versatile guy on the planet right this second. He also is a rare example of a guy who is almost never in a bad trios match regardless of opponent or partners (though when he is teaming with Raziel and Cancerbero he's hardly teaming with scrubs)

[Tim Evans]

I liked Hector Garza's early hair matches with guys like El Brazo, Bestia Salvaje and Satanico. His peak was probably the Perro Jr/Latin Lover/Garza/Heavy metal feud.

 

OJ, have you seen Pirata/Fishman vs Lizmark/Mascara Sagrada from early 93 AAA i think it was? That match was the first AAA match I ever saw when I got a Lucha tape from Highspots in the early 2000's. Just a total bloody brawl and the best Fishman match ever.

[ohtani's jacket]

Nah, I haven't seen that one. I've softened on AAA lately and Mascara Sagrada for that matter, so I'll try and check it out. I'm on a real Lizmark kick at the moment and brawling is one thing I haven't seen him do much of.