WON HOF 2013 discussion

[jdw]

I don't have a massive preference for any specific one of those.

 

40/20 seemed at the time of the earlier discussions to still too low.

 

45/25 seems a bit long for a few, such as Rock and Cena (not sure we really need to see another 9 years of Cena). On the other hand, pushing off Savage to 1997 and Hogan & Steamboat to 1998 does give the HOF very quickly some very big names to look at (Steamer since he was a longtime WON fav). Bret going to 2001 also feels more right, setting aside his career ending before that. Sayama popping up in 2001 makes for a bio Dave would have loved to have done.

 

45/20 also gets Hogan into 1998, but it does two things:

 

* Pulls a bunch into the class of 1996 (Savage, Onita, Dynamite, Sato, Dibiase, Bret, Steamboat & Sayama)

 

* finishes most of the strongest by 2009

 

45/25 avoids those, and leaves a good number of candidates in the 2010+ eligibility range.

 

* * * * *

 

Backstory time, which I've mentioned before.

 

35 was created because of this group (based on their 40/20 eligibility):

 

1995 Jackie Sato

1997 Jaguar Yokota

1998 Devil Masami

2000 Chigusa Nagayo

2000 Dump Matsumoto

2000 Lioness Asuka

2003 Bull Nakano

2005 Akira Hokuto

2006 Aja Kong

2007 Manami Toyota

 

The first half of them retired from their peak back at the age of 25 or earlier. When we did the HOF, Jaguar had been retired from here peak since the end of 1985: more than 10 years. Sure, she had returned like a number of the vets in the mid-90s, but we knew that nothing she did in that period was going to alter / enhance here HOF candidacy. Sato had been retired since 1981 from AJW, with a short unretirement from 1986-88 that meant nothing in the big picture. Dump had been retired for ages. At the time we didn't forsee (i) the retirement age coming to an end right around that time, and (ii) Joshi to die and stop producing HOF candidates right around that time.

 

The mistake was making a rule for everyone that dealt with the issue of Early Joshi Retirement. In hindsight it's rather obvious we should have done one of two things:

 

* Mens Rule + Joshi Rule

* Jacked up the Age / Debut Rule and not worry about the impact on Joshi

 

40 years old for women who retired at 25 still feels off when 40 year olds like Hogan in 1993 weren't terribly far removed from their peak. 15 years of retirement... still off.

 

We probably should have gone with the first. Up the age for Men, and block out when women would hit the ballot under different rules and see how it felt. Would Bull hitting the ballot in 2003 under 40/20 feel "right"?

 

* * * * *

 

The other thing that should have been thought out at the time is whether Dave wanted good classes deep into the coming years. Here's one thing that we couldn't have known at the time:

 

WWF & WCW --> WWE

Thriving Puroresu --> Decayed Puroresu

Long Successful Joshi --> Dead Joshi

 

We were working on this in the summer of 1996 on a trip to Japan. These guys were at or near their peaks in 1996: Mitsuharu Misawa, Nobuhiko Takada, Keiji Mutoh, Toshiaki Kawada, Masahiro Chono, Jushin Liger, Shinya Hashimoto and Kenta Kobashi. How in the heck were we suppose to know that there wasn't going to be a "next generation" remotely like that in terms of candidates. After all, in front of them had been a slew of candidates like Jumbo, Tenryu, Fujinami, Choshu, Maeda, Onita and Sayama. We were at the tail end of a golden age, but as you sat their in Sumo Hall watching New Japan at the very peak of their 90s run with a number of younger potential stars on the card, it was a bit hard to see the crash coming so soon.

 

In hindsight it makes sense to have gone 45/25 to stretch out the time that the Good/Great Candidates are popping up on the ballot. But at the time, of course there would be a new batch coming up after them.

 

Same thing goes for the US. Though with the death of the territories, the narrowing of US candidates should have been a bit more obvious. Still...

 

20/20 vision makes 45/25 + Joshi Rule pretty logical. At the time, not as obvious. 35 as a minimum, though, should have been something we thought more about. Just a dumb mistake on our part.

[goodhelmet]

I still don't think you guys should break your backs over this like you do. I get that it's the "best we have" but it's so haphazard. Watching this is great popcorn internet viewing, though, so I'm kind of glad that you do.

I don't think anyone is breaking their backs. Like you said, it makes good internet viewing. If I was really that upset or bent out of shape over Meltzer's Hall of Fame, I would make my own with the first inductees being William Regal, Dick Murdoch, Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee and El Dandy. Shit... works for me.

[KrisZ]

I think for the Joshi stars.....a 5 year rule could've been instituted where someone is retired for 5 years they are eligible

[ohtani's jacket]

The mandatory retirement age ended in 1993.

[jdw]

I think for the Joshi stars.....a 5 year rule could've been instituted where someone is retired for 5 years they are eligible

Not unreasonable. The question is what you do with someone like Chigusa, who had just comeback and was a decade plus past what made her a HOF. 45/25, which would have likely been the best for me? That would have pushed her from 1997 to 2005... when we would have been talking about it in 1996? 40/20 would have been 2000.

 

I tossed up the 40/20 for the women who got in:

 

1995 Jackie Sato

1997 Jaguar Yokota

1998 Devil Masami

2000 Chigusa Nagayo

2000 Dump Matsumoto

2000 Lioness Asuka

2003 Bull Nakano

2005 Akira Hokuto

2006 Aja Kong

2007 Manami Toyota

 

Jaguar was back as well. Only Dump stayed retired. So if it's 40/20 or 5 years still retired, it would look like this:

 

First Class - Jackie Sato

First Class - Dump Matsumoto

--------------------------

1997 Jaguar Yokota

1998 Devil Masami

2000 Chigusa Nagayo

2000 Lioness Asuka

2003 Bull Nakano

2005 Akira Hokuto

2006 Aja Kong

2007 Manami Toyota

 

From a 1996 perspective, does that look about right?

 

I'm guessing that most would have gone in easy, especially with the Crush Girls on together. Aja would have still had her issues, but Dave's pimping of Hokuto and Toyota would have gotten them in the first year or second at worst.

 

So maybe:

 

45/25 for Men and 40/20 or 5 years still retired for Women

 

John

[pantherwagner]

I won't discuss the merits of Tanahashi as a worker or a draw in Japan, I don't know enough about him.

 

However, I think it's odd how the "Jumbo is lazy"/"Eddie is lazy" argument is selectively applied. Most of the Tanahashi I have seen is in Mexico and he blows there because he doesn't do anything. AT ALL. Other than maybe play air guitar. I can't imagine anybody being the best in the world when Rush is dragging your ass to try to have a decent match in a big tournament that you are going to win. Don't really blame the guy for not trying during a paid vacation where he's probably thinking about getting the fuck out of Arena Mexico and head out to Cancun, though.

[KrisZ]

I won't discuss the merits of Tanahashi as a worker or a draw in Japan, I don't know enough about him.

 

However, I think it's odd how the "Jumbo is lazy"/"Eddie is lazy" argument is selectively applied. Most of the Tanahashi I have seen is in Mexico and he blows there because he doesn't do anything. AT ALL. Other than maybe play air guitar. I can't imagine anybody being the best in the world when Rush is dragging your ass to try to have a decent match in a big tournament that you are going to win. Don't really blame the guy for not trying during a paid vacation where he's probably thinking about getting the fuck out of Arena Mexico and head out to Cancun, though.

THIS

[FLIK]

Jaguar was back as well. Only Dump stayed retired.

Dump's been out of retirement working atleast semi regularly for like a decade +....

[Bix]

Ay W2BTD, please stop doing the podcaster equivalent of of subtweeting. It's kind of lame: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2013/11/0...power-struggle/

 

Also lame? Calling me out at the F4W board over something I posted here.

 

If you're so annoyed that I "no voted" Japan when abstaining on the other categories I didn't vote in, take it up with Dave Meltzer for allowing me to do so. It's not a chickenshit thing to do. Would you prefer if I just swapped Volk Han with my least likely pick to get in?

 

You also bring up a ton of things without having any idea what the context is:

 

There's no style bias against Japan. There's a style bias against American territorial wrestlers. A "great worker" of equal ability is more likely to go in if he's Japanese. Buddy Rose is considered a genius at how to work by wrestlers who knew him. He had great matches on TV every week. He was also in a territory not collected much by tape traders and was not a canonical guy for reasons having nothing to do with his work.

 

While obviously Tanahashi is drawing and NJPW is Japan's hottest promotion, it's really impossible to determine how much of the iPPV boom is because now people can get PPVs? Satellite and cable are minuscule there. That's not to take away from him as much as say you're missing the context of what's going on.

 

This is a HOF where a wrestler I consider a friend won't vote for the R&R Express because Gibson doesn't know what an O'Connor Roll is. That type of weird reasoning is common. Us geeks are applying more critical thinking than the guys who theoretically know better. Buddy Rose falling off the ballot doesn't mathematically make him an inferior worker to Hiroshi Tanahashi.

 

As for Snowden saying he had no idea who you were: You have no identifying information in your username or signature. I had no idea who you were until I asked Dylan because I was curious how you got a ballot and he said "the Voices of Wreatling guy." Without even asking him I'm positive that's how he meant it.

[W2BTD]

Ay W2BTD, please stop doing the podcaster equivalent of of subtweeting. It's kind of lame: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2013/11/0...power-struggle/

 

Also lame? Calling me out at the F4W board over something I posted here.

 

If you're so annoyed that I "no voted" Japan when abstaining on the other categories I didn't vote in, take it up with Dave Meltzer for allowing me to do so. It's not a chickenshit thing to do. Would you prefer if I just swapped Volk Han with my least likely pick to get in?

 

You also bring up a ton of things without having any idea what the context is:

 

There's no style bias against Japan. There's a style bias against American territorial wrestlers. A "great worker" of equal ability is more likely to go in if he's Japanese. Buddy Rose is considered a genius at how to work by wrestlers who knew him. He had great matches on TV every week. He was also in a territory not collected much by tape traders and was not a canonical guy for reasons having nothing to do with his work.

 

While obviously Tanahashi is drawing and NJPW is Japan's hottest promotion, it's really impossible to determine how much of the iPPV boom is because now people can get PPVs? Satellite and cable are minuscule there. That's not to take away from him as much as say you're missing the context of what's going on.

 

This is a HOF where a wrestler I consider a friend won't vote for the R&R Express because Gibson doesn't know what an O'Connor Roll is. That type of weird reasoning is common. Us geeks are applying more critical thinking than the guys who theoretically know better. Buddy Rose falling off the ballot doesn't mathematically make him an inferior worker to Hiroshi Tanahashi.

 

As for Snowden saying he had no idea who you were: You have no identifying information in your username or signature. I had no idea who you were until I asked Dylan because I was curious how you got a ballot and he said "the Voices of Wreatling guy." Without even asking him I'm positive that's how he meant it.

I did NOT copy something you posted here and put it on the Observer board. You posted it there. In the Alan forum. I have no clue if you are confused or posted it in both places, but that's where it is, or at least where I found it.

 

Combined with the weird AJ Styles post, that's why I called you out on it. Anyway, its explained over there in the Tanahashi thread.

 

You specifically noted that you no voted an entire category for two guys. Yes, I found that odd. Because, well, it is odd. But you explained it further, so thanks.

 

The rest is circular arguments, agree to disagree.

 

Snowden's replies to me throughout the entire discussion were condescending in tone, that's all I'll say about that.

[JerryvonKramer]

Watching this is great popcorn internet viewing, though, so I'm kind of glad that you do.

I don't agree with this.

[Matt D]

Killjoy. It's like watching mommy and daddy fight, except for instead of daddy it's some vagrant instead.

[JerryvonKramer]

More like watching the entire Dangerous Alliance kick the shit out of 123 Kid ...

 

Actually I'd love to watch that.

 

Nevermind, nevermind.

[Matt D]

The closest I can think of is after Bagwell turns down Paul E's offer for a match with Austin.

[evilclown]

Snowden's replies to me throughout the entire discussion were condescending in tone, that's all I'll say about that.

I said I don't know who you are because I don't know who you are. You could be Steve Yohe or Bryan Alvarez or Ed in San Antonio. I have no way of knowing. That wasn't an insult. It remains a statement of fact. You're an anonymous poster on a message board who at this point is intentionally misreading the tone and nature of the discussion.

[evilclown]

To take it a step further—I'm not sure Tanahashi isn't a Hall of Famer. I didn't really consider him because I don't want to vote for guys in the prime of their careers. It doesn't make sense for me conceptually. In 10 years it's likely we would have looked back and admired his matches and his contributions towards saving the business in Japan. Maybe not. But I think that's the time to make a case, not while he's an active main eventer.

[goodhelmet]

We did a Lucha Party show last night where Kris Zellner makes the exact same point. I also asked Kris what his qualifications were in being a Hall of Fame voter. He said it had something to do with latex gloves and ferrets.

[pantherwagner]

To take it a step further—I'm not sure Tanahashi isn't a Hall of Famer. I didn't really consider him because I don't want to vote for guys in the prime of their careers. It doesn't make sense for me conceptually. In 10 years it's likely we would have looked back and admired his matches and his contributions towards saving the business in Japan. Maybe not. But I think that's the time to make a case, not while he's an active main eventer.

Considering how eager the new age Japanese media is to uncover sports scandals (fighting, kickboxing, and more recently sumo, judo and baseball) we'll know that NJPW has really hit the mainstream when shit hits the fan. If such a thing were to happen, Tanahashi has got all the numbers to be their Hulk Hogan for a number of reasons. Or maybe not!

[concrete1992]

Can't we all just get along?

[KrisZ]

Oh Will you and your niche fetisism.

 

Snowden hit everything on the head with his last post....give me more of a career to look at before I vote for you.

 

I didn't vote for John fucking Cena because of my stance on guys still in their primes and Cena has way more of a case than Tanahashi.

 

I wouldn't have voted for Trips at 35, I wouldn't have voted for Taker at 35..etc

[kjh]

To take it a step further—I'm not sure Tanahashi isn't a Hall of Famer. I didn't really consider him because I don't want to vote for guys in the prime of their careers. It doesn't make sense for me conceptually. In 10 years it's likely we would have looked back and admired his matches and his contributions towards saving the business in Japan. Maybe not. But I think that's the time to make a case, not while he's an active main eventer.

Considering how eager the new age Japanese media is to uncover sports scandals (fighting, kickboxing, and more recently sumo, judo and baseball) we'll know that NJPW has really hit the mainstream when shit hits the fan. If such a thing were to happen, Tanahashi has got all the numbers to be their Hulk Hogan for a number of reasons. Or maybe not!

 

Does this mean Jun Izumida should be on the ballot for writing a tell all book revealing NOAH Director Haruka Eigen's and Ryu Nakata's formal ties to the Yakuza?

[evilclown]

To take it a step further—I'm not sure Tanahashi isn't a Hall of Famer. I didn't really consider him because I don't want to vote for guys in the prime of their careers. It doesn't make sense for me conceptually. In 10 years it's likely we would have looked back and admired his matches and his contributions towards saving the business in Japan. Maybe not. But I think that's the time to make a case, not while he's an active main eventer.

Considering how eager the new age Japanese media is to uncover sports scandals (fighting, kickboxing, and more recently sumo, judo and baseball) we'll know that NJPW has really hit the mainstream when shit hits the fan. If such a thing were to happen, Tanahashi has got all the numbers to be their Hulk Hogan for a number of reasons. Or maybe not!

 

Does this mean Jun Izumida should be on the ballot for writing a tell all book revealing NOAH Director Haruka Eigen's and Ryu Nakata's formal ties to the Yakuza?

 

Sounds "mainstream." Let's lionize him!

[pantherwagner]

To take it a step further—I'm not sure Tanahashi isn't a Hall of Famer. I didn't really consider him because I don't want to vote for guys in the prime of their careers. It doesn't make sense for me conceptually. In 10 years it's likely we would have looked back and admired his matches and his contributions towards saving the business in Japan. Maybe not. But I think that's the time to make a case, not while he's an active main eventer.

Considering how eager the new age Japanese media is to uncover sports scandals (fighting, kickboxing, and more recently sumo, judo and baseball) we'll know that NJPW has really hit the mainstream when shit hits the fan. If such a thing were to happen, Tanahashi has got all the numbers to be their Hulk Hogan for a number of reasons. Or maybe not!

 

Does this mean Jun Izumida should be on the ballot for writing a tell all book revealing NOAH Director Haruka Eigen's and Ryu Nakata's formal ties to the Yakuza?

 

I'd say Eigen's the one that should be on the ballot. Spits are mainstream.

[soup23]

Running thoughts on listening to the podcast:

 

You discuss comparing guys on different eras and how that is not fair. The WON HOF ballot is forced in a way to make you do this. Pedro Morales is in the same category as AJ Styles. Tanahashi is in the same category as the Sharpe brothers. They are in direct competition with each other to become a Hall of Famer and as a result must be compared. When conducting your ballot, what made you chose Tanahashi over the Sharpes?

 

Is there any evidence that Tanahashi made Okada besides Okada having a good draw against Ibushi when he had matches previously vs. Tanahashi in an even series? Just want a firm basis on that.

 

There IS a debate that he is not the best big match worker in the world. Wrestling match quality is subjective. You cant have it both ways and say we worship at the alter of El Dandy, Buddy Rose, etc and then accept no possible explanation of another answer. Just as I type that you admit that it is all subjective so what are you arguing exactly.

 

I hate the argument that there is a board collusion bias against Tanahashi. Problems with his offense and overall wrestling style have quite frankly been broken down better analytically here than Alan throwing around a lot of snowflakes on his forum on the F4W board. The Okada vs. Ibushi match was a match I had problems with Ibushi's selling in but I still thought was good overall. Two other posters (Dylan and Tim) didn't like it is as much because they couldn't get past the spotty selling. That is not a bias against a style, that is simply a difference in valuation of certain facets of a wrestling match within it. I think people not calling the Tanahashi matches terrible for the most part is more encouragement that we don't either have a collective groupthink or bias against someone or a style than a detriment against PWO collectively. This has historically been a forum where people wont turn a blind eye to someone/something and say it sucks without any reason or to be a outlier.

 

Will listen to more later. I do appreciate your contributions here and elsewhere and you have made some points that I agree with. If I was a HOF voter, I wouldn't vote for Tanahashi now but I do think he has benefited business in Japan from the doldrums of the mid 2000's.

[Bix]

Ay W2BTD, please stop doing the podcaster equivalent of of subtweeting. It's kind of lame: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2013/11/0...power-struggle/

 

Also lame? Calling me out at the F4W board over something I posted here.

 

If you're so annoyed that I "no voted" Japan when abstaining on the other categories I didn't vote in, take it up with Dave Meltzer for allowing me to do so. It's not a chickenshit thing to do. Would you prefer if I just swapped Volk Han with my least likely pick to get in?

 

You also bring up a ton of things without having any idea what the context is:

 

There's no style bias against Japan. There's a style bias against American territorial wrestlers. A "great worker" of equal ability is more likely to go in if he's Japanese. Buddy Rose is considered a genius at how to work by wrestlers who knew him. He had great matches on TV every week. He was also in a territory not collected much by tape traders and was not a canonical guy for reasons having nothing to do with his work.

 

While obviously Tanahashi is drawing and NJPW is Japan's hottest promotion, it's really impossible to determine how much of the iPPV boom is because now people can get PPVs? Satellite and cable are minuscule there. That's not to take away from him as much as say you're missing the context of what's going on.

 

This is a HOF where a wrestler I consider a friend won't vote for the R&R Express because Gibson doesn't know what an O'Connor Roll is. That type of weird reasoning is common. Us geeks are applying more critical thinking than the guys who theoretically know better. Buddy Rose falling off the ballot doesn't mathematically make him an inferior worker to Hiroshi Tanahashi.

 

As for Snowden saying he had no idea who you were: You have no identifying information in your username or signature. I had no idea who you were until I asked Dylan because I was curious how you got a ballot and he said "the Voices of Wreatling guy." Without even asking him I'm positive that's how he meant it.

I did NOT copy something you posted here and put it on the Observer board. You posted it there. In the Alan forum. I have no clue if you are confused or posted it in both places, but that's where it is, or at least where I found it.

 

Combined with the weird AJ Styles post, that's why I called you out on it. Anyway, its explained over there in the Tanahashi thread.

 

You specifically noted that you no voted an entire category for two guys. Yes, I found that odd. Because, well, it is odd. But you explained it further, so thanks.

 

The rest is circular arguments, agree to disagree.

 

Snowden's replies to me throughout the entire discussion were condescending in tone, that's all I'll say about that.

 

Not remembering I posted it at Alan's was the late hour, but the point still stands with how riled up you were getting on your podcast.