JerryvonKramer Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 This has come up a few times recently in my viewing. First when Monsoon and Ali faced off on that TNT, and then on the 1990 set when Buster Douglas was the special guest ref. The argument is always the same from the wrestling side: "if he can get in and hook him up, the boxer has no chance". So are they right? Does the wrestler always win? VS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 I went with boxer in a completely uneducated guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 When it's come up in MMA, the wrestler usually wins. Even wrestlers with no offensive game whatsoever have won fights against boxers with relative ease. Couture/Toney is a bad example but an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 Are we talking amateur wrestling or pro wrestling? Because while conventional wisdom has an amateur wrestler beating a boxer, i'll take a pro boxer over a pro wrestler any day of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 It's a pro wrestling shooting vs. a pro boxer. Let's say, as an example, peak Bret Hart vs. peak Mike Tyson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 It's a pro wrestling shooting vs. a pro boxer. Let's say, as an example, peak Bret Hart vs. peak Mike Tyson.Tyson would have killed him and eaten his liver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 Arn Anderson (wrestler) lost to Johnny B. Badd (boxer) at Uncensored '95, and PWI wrote an article subtly criticizing WCW booking for making boxing look better than wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 It's a pro wrestling shooting vs. a pro boxer. Let's say, as an example, peak Bret Hart vs. peak Mike Tyson.Tyson would have killed him and eaten his liver. I kind of want to see late 80s Tully vs Tyson. Would Tully be able to use ref distractions to cheat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 Boxing alone (like most disciplines; see how quick the Gracies fell) doesn't get you far in mixed-combat. Basic physiology would give the odds to a kickboxer or any kick-based discipline over a boxer, and a wrestler needs only take the boxer down and ride him out to dominate. A pure wrestler wouldn't know what to do attacking wise from on top (see early Severn), but he'd win on points by virtue of control. The boxer has "a puncher's chance", of course, maybe moreso with a judo player who'd want to get the clinch, but any collegiate-level amateur wrestler (size/weight depending) would shoot low, take Tyson down, and ride it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 I voted wrestler but I'm assuming I get to draft, like, Brock Lesnar or someone actually competent in the fundamentals. I like boxing but there's been no evidence in the last 15 years or so that a pure boxer could do anything in a MMA environment, so at this point there's probably a reason for that. If we're drawing just a name on the roster out of a hat vs. a boxer of note, then I'd vote boxer without hesitation. Brawl For All happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheGreatPuma Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 It's a pro wrestling shooting vs. a pro boxer. Let's say, as an example, peak Bret Hart vs. peak Mike Tyson.Tyson would have killed him and eaten his liver. Bret Hart would win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 You're just saying that to burnish your reputation, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 I feel like MMA has ruined what was once a great hypothetical discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 World class freestyle wrestling vs world class boxing in the same weight class in an MMA fight (which is what we're doing in mixing the arts of freestyle wrestling and boxing) = wrestler destroys boxer. Have 10 different matches like that, and the wrestler wins 90%+ Have 100, and the wrestler wins 95%+ The only way things even out is if the "boxer" has a wrestling background, or starts training in wrestling and is athletically gifted (i.e. like GSP becoming a quality wrestler in a MMA sense). But at the same time, you'd have the wrestler working on his striking. Boxing is a pretty shitty base for MMA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 Josh Koschek vs. Chris Leben is an excellent example. I wouldn't call Leben a boxer but his primary attribute was punching. Koschek had zero offensive skill at that point in his career. Koshcheck took Leben down at will and then laid on him until the referee stood them back up and then he'd just take him back down. I don't think Leben even hurt Koscheck at all during that fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 It's strange because Leban had a lot of MMA training going well back before TUF, and was rounded beyond just a puncher. Not say GSP level of rounded, but he used non-wrestler subs early his career (i.e. things other than the dreaded Wrestler Neck Crank), and certainly with Team Quest worked with wrestlers. Of course Josh was a really, really, really good wrestler. Which I think makes the point even better: Leban wasn't just a boxer, but an actually experienced MMA Fighter. He wasn't a world class punched like a boxer of that weight class would be, but he was trained in defending against take downs, and catching wrestlers coming in (guillotine or timing a knee). So while he might not hit as hard and skillful as a world class boxer of that size, his all around MMA game was light years ahead. Yet Josh was so good that he had his way with him. I think we see this in other Arts as well. A number of really good Jiu-Jitsu guys have entered the cage, been limited in their all around game, and gotten their heads handed to them because there's more to MMA than just that. Or Machida being a good Karate guy, but if he wasn't as strong at take down defense, he never would have become a high ranked MMA fighter or world champ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Looking at his record, Leben was 10-1 at that point in his career. So not a novice by an stretch. Koscheck was 2-0 so yeah, he was really raw in comparison. But he was an elite level wrestler in his weight class in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Since the question being asked is Pro Wrestler vs. Boxer in a fight, not MMA, I still say Boxer. Sure, you have your Lesnars and Angles, but you're average Pro Wrestler? Come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 I bet a Memphis stalling wrestler could beat a boxer. They'd just roll out of the ring until they could get the boxer to chase them. Then they'd roll back in and put the boots to the boxer when he rolled back in after them. How the fuck did Scott LeDoux beat Larry Z? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Looking at his record, Leben was 10-1 at that point in his career. So not a novice by an stretch. Koscheck was 2-0 so yeah, he was really raw in comparison. But he was an elite level wrestler in his weight class in college. Totally agree on that. Which I kind of highlighted here: Which I think makes the point even better: Leban wasn't just a boxer, but an actually experienced MMA Fighter. He wasn't a world class punched like a boxer of that weight class would be, but he was trained in defending against take downs, and catching wrestlers coming in (guillotine or timing a knee). So while he might not hit as hard and skillful as a world class boxer of that size, his all around MMA game was light years ahead. Yet Josh was so good that he had his way with him. If an experienced, trained and rounded MMA guy like Leban can be so totally dominated by Josh, it's hard to imagine a World Class Boxer of Josh's weightclass with zero MMA training having a shot. In a sense, that boxer would need to be like Josh: very good at his art (wrestling for Josh and boxing for Boxer), but also a terrific athlete who could learn a more rounded game. The Josh that beat Diego Sanchez just two years after TUF was an insanely more rounded fighter than he had been on TUF. In turn, the Josh of 2010 that got a shot and lost to GSP was better than he had been in 2007. He was a heck of an athlete, and a hard worker who threw himself into learning more. Our Boxer example would need to be both of those... but it would take a while for him to get there if he had no wrestling and/or other martial arts background beyond boxing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Brought this up with some friends yesterday and in a group of 7, I was the only one arguing the wrestler's case. Perception was that Tyson murders any pro wrestler including Lesnar. Was some fun fantasy booking Tyson vs Flair. I had Flair running away, Tully distracting the ref and Arn laying out Tyson with a chair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Wrestling fans, myself included, tend to have a need to try and validate their love of pro wrestling by going on about how bad ass pro wrestlers are "in real life" or "for real...he was a shooter". Shit, wrestlers themselves are the worst about it, understandingly. Let's be real. If the average pro wrestler, as tough as he may be, got into a fight with a pro boxer....the wrestler's face would look like a blueberry pie. And I love that scenario, Jerry...but it's typical Crockett. Fans want to see Tyson knock out a bad guy there...and you aren't giving them that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Johnny, I was thinking more about not wanting Ric Flair to actually be killed in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Crockett fans would probably see Tyson as the bad guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 The problem with this whole question is that it is like comparing apples with oranges. Boxing is a sport, pro wrestling is a form of entertainment where being athletic is a plus but not a necessity. There are pro wrestlers, who have the skills to beat great boxers, most don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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