Wrestlemania IV title picture

[slabinski611]

Since there is a lot of Macho Man love on this board, I thought I would throw this out there even though it has been discussed to death.

 

I have never been able to figure out the booking strategy surrounding this ppv. With all of the talk of Dibiase being givin the belt and Honkey refusing to job the IC belt to Savage, things obviously worked out for the best. But what if it didn't work out that way. I will list some points below and maybe I can get some feedback.

 

1. What if Hogan doesn't need time off for his movie ? Does he keep the belt for the year and then defend it against a heel turned Savage at wmv ? If so, who does Hogan defend against at wm4 ? Where does this leave Dibiase ?

 

2. Honky agrees to drop the IC belt to Savage at Main Event but Hogan needs the time off for his movie. Does this leave us with Dibiase going over Hogan for the title with maybe Savage defending the IC title against HTM in a rematch ? Would they really end WM4 with the heel going over in the main event over Hulk Hogan ?

[Loss]

I suspect Wrestlemania IV still would have ended with DiBiase winning the title in the finals of the tournament over Savage. Hogan and Andre may have still had the non-finish to keep either of them from having to lose. Savage and DiBiase probably would have feuded throughout summer just as they did, with DiBiase eventually dropping the title to Hogan, possibly sooner than Savage did.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've thought about this topic in the past, probably more than is humanly healthy.

 

My take is that the tournament was the perfect way to get the title off Hogan without him jobbing, so my thought would be that you book everything the same in terms of the tournament (Hogan vs. Andre draw, DiBiase getting into the final cheap via bye). The only thing that needs to change is what happens in the Savage half of the draw.

 

I'd do it like this:

 

Steamboat over Greg

 

Reed over Beefcake

 

Steamboat over Reed

 

Steamboat over One Man Gang

 

DiBiase over Steamboat (with cheap assistance from Andre / Virgil)

 

MASSIVE heel heat.

 

Then while he's celebrating, Hogan runs down and beats him up or chases him off for a pose down as Jesse loses his shit on commentary.

 

OR

 

Switch it up so that the IC title match goes on last and the fans can at least go home happy seeing HTM beaten.

 

Then at Summerslam you can put Hogan over Ted clean to win the title back.

[JerryvonKramer]

With that plan, you have through the summer Ted vs. Hogan on the "A" tour, with Ted getting cheap finishes around the horn (a la Dusty chasing Flair), and have Savage vs. HTM headlining the "B" tour, with Savage going over HTM clean everywhere.

 

By the time you get to Summerslam, maybe you could have built up someone like Rick Rude to take on Savage. But then what happens to Warrior? The butterfly effect ripples large with this one.

[Dooley]

If Hogan doesn't go film No Holds Barred or take a hiatus for whatever reason, I'd think they'd go with Hogan-Andre in a cage for WM4, with DiBiase in Andre's corner. That gives you a jumping off point for a Hogan-DiBiase summer feud as DiBiase finally decides he can't buy the title or send a henchman for it and finally has to do it himself.

 

If Honky drops the IC title to Savage I think everything still goes according to the original plan with DiBiase winning a tournament and Savage chasing him until Hulk comes back.

 

I still can't wrap my head around a guy like Vince caving to Honky of all people and allowing that to change his plans for his champion coming out of his biggest card of the year.

[JerryvonKramer]

I still can't wrap my head around a guy like Vince caving to Honky of all people and allowing that to change his plans for his champion coming out of his biggest card of the year.

My own theory is that this booking was changed a lot earlier than is often stated. I have no doubt that at one time they thought of Ted being world champ, but the booking with Hogan and Savage from that SNME in October 87 seems to foreshadow the idea that Savage is going to be a major player soon too much for me to think that the WM 4 booking was a last-minute change of plans. Besides, if you listen to those crowds at that time, they were nuts for Savage. My thought is that Vince changed his mind about putting the strap on Ted because he saw more money in Savage. It's the WWF way to have a face champ anyway, so he went with that.

 

Not saying that the HTM story isn't true, but just that it seems likely that Vince was half-thinking about Savage anyway and that situation tilted the scales. Vince would have (conveniently) presented himself as a victim of circumstance to Ted and he wasn't the sort of worker to kick up a fuss anyway. I'm sure that's closer to how it went down. Vince wanted it anyway and HTM gave him a convenient get-out clause that wouldn't piss off DiBiase too much.

 

I reckon he was thinking of a Hogan vs. Savage WM main event as early as 1987.

[Guest The Jiz]

I suspect Wrestlemania IV still would have ended with DiBiase winning the title in the finals of the tournament over Savage. Hogan and Andre may have still had the non-finish to keep either of them from having to lose. Savage and DiBiase probably would have feuded throughout summer just as they did, with DiBiase eventually dropping the title to Hogan, possibly sooner than Savage did.

That's possible but I'd really like to know the source on DiBiase getting the belt. That would have been a real anomaly for WWE in general but especially in that era. Further, I don't see any booking strategy for DiBiase as being someone seen by the upper brass as special even before 1988. It must be remembered that part of the reason for WWE's bubble bursting in 1989 was the face-heel equilibrium had been so far apart that the faces no longer had credible challengers to get heat, and Mr. Perfect surely wasn't going to fill that void. The most protected heels between 1988-89 were Rick Rude and Randy Savage. And even then, Rude looked inferior to Piper and Savage jobbed clean to Hogan every night.

[khawk20]

I suspect Wrestlemania IV still would have ended with DiBiase winning the title in the finals of the tournament over Savage.

 

I've never bought this theory simply based on how the WWF Champ was booked in the 80's. Heel Champs didn't get much if any time with the title, and ending a WrestleMania with a heel winning the title just seems so..."anti-wrestlemania" in that time frame, so to speak.

 

I think the plan was simply executed as it was laid out...Savage comes out with the belt, Hogan endorses his title reign, and Savage runs with it until the next WrestleMania, where Hogan could re-assume his place on top as Champ.

 

I've never really seriously thought any other ending was in play, to be honest.

[Loss]

DiBiase was hyped in such a major way with such an awesome gimmick. He also went right into the main event picture, so it's clear that they saw his signing as a big deal.

[BrickHithouse]

I suspect Wrestlemania IV still would have ended with DiBiase winning the title in the finals of the tournament over Savage.

 

I've never bought this theory simply based on how the WWF Champ was booked in the 80's. Heel Champs didn't get much if any time with the title, and ending a WrestleMania with a heel winning the title just seems so..."anti-wrestlemania" in that time frame, so to speak.

 

I think the plan was simply executed as it was laid out...Savage comes out with the belt, Hogan endorses his title reign, and Savage runs with it until the next WrestleMania, where Hogan could re-assume his place on top as Champ.

 

I've never really seriously thought any other ending was in play, to be honest.

 

Same here. I never bought the theory that Dibiase was the planned champ coming out of WM IV.

[JerryvonKramer]

That's possible but I'd really like to know the source on DiBiase getting the belt.

DiBiase himself has said many times in shoots that he was promised him the world title back when they first offered him the role of Million Dollar Man. We've talked about this before somewhere, but DiBiase was the key asset in UWF and he could have gone to Crockett at that time. I'm pretty sure I've heard other people tell versions of this same story before too (Pat Patterson? Gene Okerlund? Can't remember now).

 

The main source for the HTM story is HTM himself, of course.

 

I believe that DiBiase was promised the belt as part of that initial negotiation but (as described above) later Vince changed his mind and used the HTM situation to get himself out of the promise ... the Million Dollar Belt is the result.

 

Like others though, I don't believe by the time WMIV actually comes around that the plan was still for him to come out of that with the belt.

[khawk20]

That's possible but I'd really like to know the source on DiBiase getting the belt.

DiBiase himself has said many times in shoots that he was promised him the world title back when they first offered him the role of Million Dollar Man. We've talked about this before somewhere, but DiBiase was the key asset in UWF and he could have gone to Crockett at that time. I'm pretty sure I've heard other people tell versions of this same story before too (Pat Patterson? Gene Okerlund? Can't remember now).

 

The main source for the HTM story is HTM himself, of course.

 

I believe that DiBiase was promised the belt as part of that initial negotiation but (as described above) later Vince changed his mind and used the HTM situation to get himself out of the promise ... the Million Dollar Belt is the result.

 

Like others though, I don't believe by the time WMIV actually comes around that the plan was still for him to come out of that with the belt.

 

I'd offer that DiBiase would have got the title a few months before Mania somehow and lost it back to Hogan, or Savage, at IV.

 

...and by that, I mean cheating to an actual pinfall win over Hogan somehow. The Twin refs/loss to Andre/give the title to Ted is something someone thought of that was seen as better than the original way Ted would have won the belt, whatever that was.

 

I think they would have been actively searching for a way for Hogan to job without really jobbing, pretty much exactly what they came up with in the end.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah I'd go along with that entirely. And in a weird way, Ted did have a little 2-week run with the title, so Vince could kind of say he kept his promise anyway.

 

I am smiling to myself right now at Jack Tunney's sternness during that whole affair.

[khawk20]

I am smiling to myself right now at Jack Tunney's sternness during that whole affair.

That was just constipation.

[BrickHithouse]

The timeframe between Feb 5 and the WM tourney getting ironed out was really Tunney's tour de force. Dude was on screen more than any wrestler.

 

The next time Tunney would be featured in every fucking segment on every single show was around the time of Survivor Series 91 and Tuesday in Texas. Constant rulings and proclamations - Jake suspended, reptiles banned, title hold ups, just relentless Tunney.

[PeteF3]

 

One thing to keep in mind was the original brackets. Note the flip-flop of Duggan/DiBiase and Jake/Rude. In that one, the only feasible finals is in fact Hogan vs. DiBiase. Since I don't think they'd take the belt off of Hogan just to put it back on him a month later, one can suppose this lends credence to the idea that DiBiase was walking out with the belt at one point. I think one of the "outs" was going to be DiBiase paying the Gang to fake an injury or otherwise bow out of their 2nd-round match, but who knows how they'd book Hogan to eat another (presumed) pinfall.

[JerryvonKramer]

Does that mean Savage was originally double booked to be in the tourney AND the IC title match?

 

relentless Tunney.

I would love to see this as the title of a mini-youtube collection.

[Cox]

 

One thing to keep in mind was the original brackets. Note the flip-flop of Duggan/DiBiase and Jake/Rude. In that one, the only feasible finals is in fact Hogan vs. DiBiase. Since I don't think they'd take the belt off of Hogan just to put it back on him a month later, one can suppose this lends credence to the idea that DiBiase was walking out with the belt at one point. I think one of the "outs" was going to be DiBiase paying the Gang to fake an injury or otherwise bow out of their 2nd-round match, but who knows how they'd book Hogan to eat another (presumed) pinfall.

Alternatively, they could have had Rude beat Jake in the first round and draw with Muraco in the quarters. That would have made DiBiase/Savage the finals.

[Sidebottom]

Yeah I'd go along with that entirely. And in a weird way, Ted did have a little 2-week run with the title, so Vince could kind of say he kept his promise anyway.

 

Teddy looking great! Dibiase should of had a full blown run with the belt. One of my favourite ever workers in arguably his peak. Mania 4 should have ended a little something like this:

 

[slabinski611]

I love some of these ideas. I'm intrigued by the booking around this time because there is no clear cut way to book things other than the way it happened. I know Dibiase has said he was promised a run with the belt but is it concrete that HTM was suppose to drop the IC title to Savage or was it just something that came from htm himself ? If Savage was suppose to go over Honky, does he channel Warrior at wm6 and go on to win the wwf title while holding the IC belt at the same time ? If that is the case, you would prabably have to have a tournament for the IC title as well and I can't see them having two tournaments in the same calendar year. Also, was the tourney always the plan for wm4 ? If so then I can only see Hogan or Savage going over. I can't for the life of me see a heel winning the main event match of wrestlemania. This was the wwf in the 80s, not the NWA.

[Loss]

The HTM story isn't just something from HTM. There weren't specifics in the WON at the time, but it was alluded to.

[Dooley]

 

One thing to keep in mind was the original brackets. Note the flip-flop of Duggan/DiBiase and Jake/Rude. In that one, the only feasible finals is in fact Hogan vs. DiBiase. Since I don't think they'd take the belt off of Hogan just to put it back on him a month later, one can suppose this lends credence to the idea that DiBiase was walking out with the belt at one point. I think one of the "outs" was going to be DiBiase paying the Gang to fake an injury or otherwise bow out of their 2nd-round match, but who knows how they'd book Hogan to eat another (presumed) pinfall.

Having DiBiase "buy" his way to the finals and Andre injure Hogan after their match and interfere like crazy during the finals would have been enough of a cushion to put DiBiase over Hogan, one would think.

[JerryvonKramer]

With this, while I do believe what I said last night is something close to how it went down, I don't think we can categorically rule out the HTM story / original WMIV plan simply because it was without precedent.

 

This was a time when Vince was sort of trying out new ideas and doing some things differently. For a start, the tourney idea itself was new. Then, the Million Dollar Man gimmick was new for him. It was a "special" gimmick and unlike anything he'd tried before.

 

DiBiase wasn't coming in for a regular top heel run, this was a bit different. In the past, Vince had used talent with established characters from elsewhere (Piper, Orndorff, Kamala) and then pitted them against Hogan. Even with guys he "saddled with gimmicks", it was more or less bringing in Terry Funk and sticking a cowboy hat on him. This was not the same.

 

Vince had the concept for the gimmick and character first, then he thought of who might fit and Ted was the top of the list. There was talk of Bockwinkel playing the role. There was talk of some other people. This is a break with how New York had done things in the past, because here was a character that was 100% a Vince concept, which he had plans for, and the worker was brought in to play that part. It was sold to Ted as "the heel character Vince himself would like to play". Then when he accepted, it came with additional perks such as first-class flights, top hotel rooms and even his own locker room in some arenas. It's a world away from bringing in Kamala or Sika for a few MSG shows.

 

So, if Vince was prepared to think this "differently" for the MDM role, maybe he always had the idea of him buying or cheating his way to the title. It's conceivable at least that he entertained giving him the belt at WMIV. As I've said, my view is that the reaction to Savage made him change his mind, but Vince was kind of experimenting at this point.

[El Boricua]

One detail that stands out for me is that they said that the tournament winner would be the new WWF champion. I don't recall it being mentioned that it had to be won via pinfall or submission. Would it have been possible for DiBiase to have won a hypothetical final with Hogan via DQ or CO, winning the tournament and, thus, the title?

 

Another thing I've found a bit weird is that they ran the eventual finals matchup on TV one week before on SNME. Never did quite understand why they did that. They also did something similar with Warrior and Rude prior to SummerSlam 90.

[Guest The Jiz]

With this, while I do believe what I said last night is something close to how it went down, I don't think we can categorically rule out the HTM story / original WMIV plan simply because it was without precedent.

 

This was a time when Vince was sort of trying out new ideas and doing some things differently. For a start, the tourney idea itself was new. Then, the Million Dollar Man gimmick was new for him. It was a "special" gimmick and unlike anything he'd tried before.

 

DiBiase wasn't coming in for a regular top heel run, this was a bit different. In the past, Vince had used talent with established characters from elsewhere (Piper, Orndorff, Kamala) and then pitted them against Hogan. Even with guys he "saddled with gimmicks", it was more or less bringing in Terry Funk and sticking a cowboy hat on him. This was not the same.

 

Vince had the concept for the gimmick and character first, then he thought of who might fit and Ted was the top of the list. There was talk of Bockwinkel playing the role. There was talk of some other people. This is a break with how New York had done things in the past, because here was a character that was 100% a Vince concept, which he had plans for, and the worker was brought in to play that part. It was sold to Ted as "the heel character Vince himself would like to play". Then when he accepted, it came with additional perks such as first-class flights, top hotel rooms and even his own locker room in some arenas. It's a world away from bringing in Kamala or Sika for a few MSG shows.

 

So, if Vince was prepared to think this "differently" for the MDM role, maybe he always had the idea of him buying or cheating his way to the title. It's conceivable at least that he entertained giving him the belt at WMIV. As I've said, my view is that the reaction to Savage made him change his mind, but Vince was kind of experimenting at this point.

I don't doubt Vince entertained the idea, but I doubt he would have pulled the trigger.

 

We also need a frame of reference for the blowoff. Was SummerSlam already planned by this point, or did Vince arbitrarily create the event as a reaction to an NWA strategy? It's significant that Vince didn't use title matches in the main event until after the bubble had burst. So the implication is even if DiBiase won the belt, the blowoff would not have been at SummerSlam. That leaves only SNME, but no world title change ever took place at an SNME event. So the blowoff would have been on the February Main Event card in 1989, but that event was the setup for Wrestlemania like what Rumble is now.

 

People forget how insanely formulaic WWE was from the formation of Main Event in 1988 to before the bubble had burst in the fall of 1989.

 

WM = only event for blowoff where the face wins

SNME = angles and tag switches

SummerSlam = IC switch was possible with tag main event to not sacrifice Wrestlemania

Survivor Series = feel good tag event

Royal Rumble = some shit show B-PPV with a foreshadowing to Main Event and an IC angle

Main Event = the big angle to kick off Wrestlemania season

 

There was a theme to this formula. The face always went over! It's this that killed the heat for heels come 1990, leading to decrease in demand and Vince's response increasing supply. Indeed, it's overwhelming to realize just how conservative this strategy really was.

 

Vince went away from this for a number of reasons, namely decrease in product demand and thin main event in 1990 that had no room for the huge angle to kick off Wrestlemania.