Wrestlemania IV title picture

[Al]

Wasn't the Honky Tonk Man actually developed by Ferris before he brought the gimmick to the WWF? Hercules was using the name as early as '82. I kind of feel like the Hillbillies were the first obvious "characters" Vince created.

[Matt D]

My point is that most of those cases are when a guy is acquired by Vince and then he thinks "hmmm, what shall I do with him?" Take Honkytonk Man, he brings in a guy from Memphis and then thinks of making him an Elvis character. There's not a million miles away from sticking a cowboy hat on Dory and calling him "Hoss Funk".

 

With MDM, Vince came up with the character first, then cast Ted. He didn't sign Ted and then think "Hmmm what shall I do with this guy". He came up with the concept and then thought "hmmm, who would be good for this role?"

 

The difference is marked. Read my post again and you'll see me pointing to that as being the key differentiator. Let me spell it out explicitly to make sure there's no doubt at all about what I'm saying:

 

1. Worker --> repackaging

2. Concept --> worker hired to play role

 

If you want to argue that Hercules Hernandez existed as a concept before Herc was hired, I'd like to see that argument.

So who would be the best #2 choice for the Million Dollar Man?

 

Who debuted around that time? Warrior? Rude?

[JerryvonKramer]

Bock is the name I always hear mentioned.

[goodhelmet]

Wasn't the Honky Tonk Man actually developed by Ferris before he brought the gimmick to the WWF? Hercules was using the name as early as '82. I kind of feel like the Hillbillies were the first obvious "characters" Vince created.

Yeah, Honky was already a Ferris creation but I don't know of any foootage of him using the gimmick prior to his WWF debut. Hercules was Hercules in Mid South, long before he hit the WWF. Koko Ware and George Steele weren't really that different from their pre-Rock N Wrestling personas.

[Smack2k]

Loss wrote up the WON's that covered the stories in real time. Extractions from Loss' posts and links to them:

 

Thanks for posting these....GREAT reads and real insight to what was going on....

[Ricky Jackson]

Wasn't the Honky Tonk Man actually developed by Ferris before he brought the gimmick to the WWF? Hercules was using the name as early as '82. I kind of feel like the Hillbillies were the first obvious "characters" Vince created.

Yeah, Honky was already a Ferris creation but I don't know of any foootage of him using the gimmick prior to his WWF debut. Hercules was Hercules in Mid South, long before he hit the WWF. Koko Ware and George Steele weren't really that different from their pre-Rock N Wrestling personas.

 

Ferris was doing the Honky gimmick ("Honky Tonk Wayne") in Stampede when I first started watching in the summer of 86. Can't find any Stampede footage online, but here is footage of him in All-Star Wrestling in Vancouver from probably around the same time:

[Bix]

I have a bunch of Honky Tonk Wayne footage. While Vince did turn the Elvis aspects up to 11, he already had the jumpsuit and the hair before, the original version of the character was fairly different with Ferris acting like Schneider from One Day at a Time.

[JerryvonKramer]

This all strengthens my argument, excellent.

[Migs]

It's hard to say but most of the examples you picked out were either guys who had a pre-existing schtick or it was like "Here Koko, carry this bird to the ring".

 

I don't know which other characters had pre-existing concepts but it seems like Mr. Perfect might be one -- I don't know about that though, just a guess.

 

Undertaker?

Undertaker was a Bruce Prichard idea, in some collaboration with Vince.

[JerryvonKramer]

Before or after they hired Callous though?

[jdw]

My point is that most of those cases are when a guy is acquired by Vince and then he thinks "hmmm, what shall I do with him?" Take Honkytonk Man, he brings in a guy from Memphis and then thinks of making him an Elvis character. There's not a million miles away from sticking a cowboy hat on Dory and calling him "Hoss Funk".

 

With MDM, Vince came up with the character first, then cast Ted. He didn't sign Ted and then think "Hmmm what shall I do with this guy". He came up with the concept and then thought "hmmm, who would be good for this role?"

 

The difference is marked. Read my post again and you'll see me pointing to that as being the key differentiator. Let me spell it out explicitly to make sure there's no doubt at all about what I'm saying:

 

1. Worker --> repackaging

2. Concept --> worker hired to play role

 

If you want to argue that Hercules Hernandez existed as a concept before Herc was hired, I'd like to see that argument.

 

Wasn't the Honky Tonk Man actually developed by Ferris before he brought the gimmick to the WWF? Hercules was using the name as early as '82. I kind of feel like the Hillbillies were the first obvious "characters" Vince created.

Yeah, Honky was already a Ferris creation but I don't know of any foootage of him using the gimmick prior to his WWF debut. Hercules was Hercules in Mid South, long before he hit the WWF. Koko Ware and George Steele weren't really that different from their pre-Rock N Wrestling personas.

 

Ferris was doing the Honky gimmick ("Honky Tonk Wayne") in Stampede when I first started watching in the summer of 86. Can't find any Stampede footage online, but here is footage of him in All-Star Wrestling in Vancouver from probably around the same time:

 

 

I have a bunch of Honky Tonk Wayne footage. While Vince did turn the Elvis aspects up to 11, he already had the jumpsuit and the hair before, the original version of the character was fairly different with Ferris acting like Schneider from One Day at a Time.

 

This all strengthens my argument, excellent.

 

Wayne:

 

HTM before the WWF:

 

Clearly Wayne changed himself into the HTM well in advance of the WWF.

 

In the case of HTM, Vince didn't repackage the "worker" nor did he create a "character" and then look for someone to play him. It's a bit like saying Vince repackaged Hogan, or came up with Hulkamania and then went looking for Hulk. In both cases he took and existing worker with a character and got it more focused and improved. Same for Savage. As Bix says, Vince went to 11 with some aspects... but that's was one of Vince's strengths at the time.

 

So there was a third one:

 

3. took an existing worker and/or character and enhanced him/it

 

Arguably, most of Vince's major successes in the period were #3: Hogan, Piper, Savage, Orndorff, Jake (he was the Snake before the WWF, and Vince went to 11 with Damien), Bulldogs, Valentine, Tito, Andre, Heenan, Rude, Warrior (long a Road Warrior knockoff before getting to the WWF), Bundy, Sheik, Volkoff, Junkyard Dog (though I suspect Mid South fans would say Vince unenhanced Dog). There were some like Kamala who did big money with Hogan without really changing anything. Studd and Muraco as well. Duggan was Duggan of Mid South, with just the goofy aspects dialed up and the kick as aspects muted (though a guy carrying around a 2x4 and saying "Tough Guy" does imply a certain kick ass nature, even if in a cartoon fashion).

 

Anyway...

 

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Fuck off

 

Jerry

[jdw]

Well, someone had to point out that some of the biggest guys Vince got didn't fit into 1. or 2. I mean... 80s WWF, you'd think if one slowed down to think for 30 second before posting they'd go:

 

"Hmm... where do Hogan & Piper fit into 1 or 2? Oh, shit... there's a #3!"

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Did they? I said this:

 

most of the examples you picked out were either guys who had a pre-existing schtick or it was like "Here Koko, carry this bird to the ring".

The only important thing is the concept coming first and then casting the worker. We don't need a third category.

 

Jerry

[Bix]

Also, Koko was the "The Birdman" doing the dance and coming out to the song by The Time for like a year in Memphis and the UWF beforehand, Frankie was the only change.

[JerryvonKramer]

Right, so what? I was saying Vince was doing things a bit differently with MDM. In answer to this post:

 

Also, someone mentioned Vince trying new things in this timeframe and DiBiase being the start of him "creating characters" as possible support for him getting the belt, but I don't really see that. Yes, he did do a few things outside of the usual playbook (heels go over in Survivor Series main, belt off Hogan at all) but I don't see DiBiase as a landmark when it came to Vince creating characters.

 

Off the top of my head prior to The Million Dollar Man:

 

Honky Tonk Man

George "The Animal" Steele

Jake "The Snake" Roberts

"Adorable" Adrian Adonis

Hercules

Hillbilly Jim & Cousin Luke

"Birdman" Koko B. Ware

Demolition

 

Among others. Million Dollar Man was pretty elaborate, but he was still "The Million Dollar Man" Ted DiBiase. When Perfect came in he was "Mr. Perfect" Curt Henning. It wasn't until later that they'd drop the names and just go with the nickname, or they'd bring in guys well known elsewhere completely as characters

If these guys had their schtick down before coming to WWF, great, it makes my argument stronger. The details are of virtually no importance other than some nice "oh, right" style trivia. So HTM was HTM before WWF? Great. Nice trivia.

 

There's nothing else to it.

 

John -- someone who consistently has a go at my reading comprehension skills -- has misread this. He thinks I'm trying say all workers fit into those two categories. I'm not. I'm saying there's a distinction between a basic repackaging and what they did with MDM and later characters. All this is pretty clear if he'd read the fucking thread and stopped trying score petty points for a change.

[jdw]

Did they? I said this:

 

most of the examples you picked out were either guys who had a pre-existing schtick or it was like "Here Koko, carry this bird to the ring".

The only important thing is the concept coming first and then casting the worker. We don't need a third category.

 

Jerry

That's what you said an hour after the post that I quoted, which is the one where you said what Vince did when he acquired "most" of his talent. One where you were in "Let me spell it out explicitly to make sure there's no doubt at all about what I'm saying" mode and then listed 1. and 2.

[JerryvonKramer]

Where I listed the distinction between 1 and 2. The distinction being that in one case the concept comes first and the worker second, and in the other the worker comes first.

 

At no point did I say that a total repackaging is the only option. At no point did I say "hey, what this thread really needs is jdw pointing out the totally fucking obvious difference between a repackaging and tweaking". Why? Because it is not at all important to the point I was making. Not at all.

[jdw]

Vince was doing things differently with MDM? These guys would say differently:

 

 

They debuted while Ted was still in the UWF.

 

Oh... 1987 is too "close" to MDM?

 

"October 1984 is calling, Brother."

 

Vince always had various ways of don't things. There was a 3. before Ted, and a 3. after Ted.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Do you ever stop being a twat?

 

Rather than admit that you screwed up that argument, instead you shift to a place where you think you can win instead. How about a "yeah, actually now you mention it Jerry, my point was totally irrelevant. Sorry for fucking up yet another thread with my inane bollocks." Total wanker.

[Migs]

Before or after they hired Callous though?

I believe before they hired him. At the least they had the "dark" concept and might have put together the specific character around Callous. He tells the story on Austin's podcast.

[BrickHithouse]

Before or after they hired Callous though?

I believe before they hired him. At the least they had the "dark" concept and might have put together the specific character around Callous. He tells the story on Austin's podcast.

 

If things fell through with Calloway, Diamond Dallas Page was ready to go. What could have been.

 

[Ricky Jackson]

x a million.

[Dooley]

Vince was doing things differently with MDM? These guys would say differently:

 

 

They debuted while Ted was still in the UWF.

 

Oh... 1987 is too "close" to MDM?

 

"October 1984 is calling, Brother."

 

Vince always had various ways of don't things. There was a 3. before Ted, and a 3. after Ted.

 

John

Didn't both Eadie and Randy Colley insist they came up with the gimmick? Both used it after they were turfed from WWF and Eadie even went to court over it, didn't he?

 

Not that I want to get involved in part 47 of the jdw-JVK feud that no one except the two of them gives a shit about.

[Stuttsy]

Awesome, fascinating thread, my favorite one in a while.

 

One thing that no one has really mentioned so far is this: Personally I don't think it's a stretch at all to imagine "Hulk Hogan returns to fight Ted Dibiase (and take the title back)" as the selling point to launch the first Summerslam. To me that makes perfect sense to launch a new PPV concept and establish it as a major event you can't miss.