WWE Midcard Purges

[Jesse Ewiak]

I don't understand why this is so heated.

Tito Santana is loved on this board. Kofi Kingston is hated. Slasher is saying that if you dropped 2013 Kofi into 1985 WWF, he'd be over bigger than Tito in the same position. Not that surprising it got heated a little bit.

[Mad Dog]

Completely disagree with Justin Gabriel. He has consistently good matches with a wide variety of guys. He's the perfect JTTS for the roster.

[Loss]

I don't understand why this is so heated.

Tito Santana is loved on this board. Kofi Kingston is hated. Slasher is saying that if you dropped 2013 Kofi into 1985 WWF, he'd be over bigger than Tito in the same position. Not that surprising it got heated a little bit.

 

I actually meant on Slasher's side.

[Slasher]

I just dislike the inherent elitist attitude that we bring to the table. Kofi Kingston is a fine not great midcarder who has shown the ability to get over when given the ball. To look down on him the way people have here is just stupid IMO. I don't really care but it isn't just Kofi either. I see names like The Truth bandied about too and it is almost like people don't understand how to run a whole wrestling company. You can't push everyone and those you don't push they have to have something going for them. There is a reason why the WWE has kept them around for so long. They actually contribute something, whether if we like what it is or not. I am sorry, clearly it is my own problem but I am questioning whether I am on the right board or not sometimes. This isn't meant to be an attack either by any means or anything, so don't take it the wrong way.

[fakeplastictrees]

I disagree with the praise Natalya receives & think she's one of the worse off Divas. I don't think it would be a terrible loss if WWE parted ways with her.

I agree and I think she's pretty crap most of the time. I was struggling to choose between keeping her and Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn's fairly over but she's been MIA for a few months now. Natalya's one of the stars of their hit reality show and seems to be connecting with people. I could take or leave either one to be honest. I wouldn't keep both though, there's far too many divas.

 

Natalie has shown that she is not able to get over on more than one occasion. She is a terrible promo and is very wooden in personality. She is a good wrestler, but that's it. I believe she is still around due to her last name as she ranks toward the bottom of popularity compared to the other Divas. If I was WWE I'd get her off TV and send her to developmental with Del Ray. I am sure she will be able to continue to help the girls of NXT with the wrestling. Because Del Ray and Neidhart have no personality I am afraid that will yeild a bunch of female Davey Richards who are constantly forced to use WWE comedy to get them over.

[Badlittlekitten]

Natalie has shown that she is not able to get over on more than one occasion. She is a terrible promo and is very wooden in personality. She is a good wrestler, but that's it. I believe she is still around due to her last name as she ranks toward the bottom of popularity compared to the other Divas. If I was WWE I'd get her off TV and send her to developmental with Del Ray. I am sure she will be able to continue to help the girls of NXT with the wrestling. Because Del Ray and Neidhart have no personality I am afraid that will yeild a bunch of female Davey Richards who are constantly forced to use WWE comedy to get them over.

 

That's the thing though, I don't think she is a good wrestler. I honestly can't think of one Natalya match where I thought, "she looks decent". In fact, the only time I thought she looked any good was against Del Rey herself, and Rey's pulled decent matches out of all manner of scrubs (don't get the 'no personality' dig. Sara's not a good promo but she shines in the ring, as a heel at least.) I don't know if it's nerves or what but she looks like she gets lost during a match quite often. She takes fifteen minutes to figure out how to set up the sharpshooter as well. AJ and even Brie Bella have looked better in the ring than her lately.

[Sidebottom]

Natalya being some sort of super worker is one of those things where somebody has said it once upon a time, and it gets said enough people actually believe it. Not saying she is bad, by any stretch, but because of her last name people have associated her with something great where the fact is she hasn't exactly carved out an excellent video library for herself. It works both ways: wrestlers get he "can't work" tag or "shit" label because enough people say something without giving it too much thought.

[cm funk]

I'm not a particularly big Tito Santana fan......but Tito is so >>>>>>> Kofi......and it's not even close

 

If you transported Kofi to 1985 would his flashy offense and athletic ability get him over? probably.....and he he might actually be a better worker by sheer inertia because you couldn't be as sloppy and illogical as Kofi tends to be back in that time. If you transported Tito to 2013 would he be instantly one of the biggest stars on the roster? definitely.

[efrim]

Natalia strikes me as competent, but fairly uncreative and very incapable of dealing with something unexpected. I haven't paid that close of attention to her, but it seems like her botches are always really bad and noticeable.

[Matt D]

Natalya being some sort of super worker is one of those things where somebody has said it once upon a time, and it gets said enough people actually believe it. Not saying she is bad, by any stretch, but because of her last name people have associated her with something great where the fact is she hasn't exactly carved out an excellent video library for herself. It works both ways: wrestlers get he "can't work" tag or "shit" label because enough people say something without giving it too much thought.

If I don't have time to look at Lioness Asuka matches, I definitely don't have time to look at Natalya ones.

[vicious&delicious]

I don't want to pile up on Natalya. I probably pay more attention to her matches and may be overly critical because she is a common topic of discussion. However, her smackdown match last friday with tamina was terrible.

 

Natalya hit one offensive move (a clothesline) and spent 15 seconds trying to awkwardly get Tamina's long legs into a sharp shooter. It was bad. Miz applying the figure four bad.

[efrim]

This is still sticks in my mind as a colossal train wreak where Nattie was at fault:

[Jimmy Redman]

To not pile on to Natalya, if you want to check out a match where she is actually good, watch any match she had with Alicia Fox on Superstars. Particularly 7th July 2011.

[Mad Dog]

My problem with Kofi is that he takes weird angles on his moves. So his match structure can be fine but his moves just look like shit because he always takes awkward angles to everything. I really dug his Main Event match with the Miz last year. I don't know how they pulled that match out of their ass. I think they need to find a better middle ground with Kofi. It feels like he's either holding the IC/US/Tag belts or getting jobbed out.

[Jesse Ewiak]

My problem with Kofi is that he takes weird angles on his moves. So his match structure can be fine but his moves just look like shit because he always takes awkward angles to everything. I really dug his Main Event match with the Miz last year. I don't know how they pulled that match out of their ass. I think they need to find a better middle ground with Kofi. It feels like he's either holding the IC/US/Tag belts or getting jobbed out.

Isn't your last line true of everybody in the WWE not named Punk, Cena, Orton, Triple H, Lesnar, The Big Show, Mark Henry, Daniel Bryan, or The Shield?

[Mad Dog]

Some guys go into 50/50 mode. You're probably right. It just feels more pronounced with Kofi for some reason.

[fakeplastictrees]

Re: Natalie

 

I agree that some wrestlers (I have seen this happen a ton of times with Divas/Knockouts) get called good and its sticks despite their being no 'best of' that can be convincingly assembled. Another one who gets the 'good wrestler' label is Winter/Katie Lea Burchill and Tara/Victoria. Both are pretty bad and while a case can be made for Tara/Victoria having passable matches, none can be made for Winter/Katie. When I say Natalie is a good worker, what I mean by that is that she has shown she is not going to break someone's neck in the ring. I have seen matches were I am SHOOT fearful of another woman's life because she is CLEARLY in the ring with someone who has no business there.

 

Natalie is probably the safest woman in either TNA or WWE to work with and she doesn't mind showing ass instead of adopting the female Davey Richards gimmick. Her being safe and technically sound (her judo techniques are WAY better than Eve's UGLY and not believable BJJ techniques) puts her in the good worker category in my book (but then again look at her competition). If GoodHelmet created Natalie comp TODAY, are there a series of matches, let alone a match that I am clamoring to see? No. I haven't found a good way to describe my thoughts on Natalie as I have never talked about a wrestler being serviceable in the ring, but not being able to put together ANYTHING of any type of worth for YEARS. The match with Ivory at some indy show was pretty good IIRC, but one match in almost 10 years?

[Matt D]

I thought Nattie had a pretty good showing on NXT this week. Probably the best I've seen out of her in a long time. Some competent chain wrestling, some good character work, a well-worked abdominal stretch. Some of the selling I liked more and some I liked less (Paige's selling after the sharpshooter escape was notable though). Good intensity. Pretty varied offense one she got going including a nice snap suplex and michinoku driver of all things. Not sure how much credit should go to Paige or Del Rey, but it was a relatively good showing.

[bradhindsight]

Kofi is dreadful & one of the first people I would fire if I could. He's the poster boy, to me, of everything wrong with modern WWE. But that's another rant altogether.

I guess I'm re-hashing this from a couple weeks back but this doesn't make sense to me from a business standpoint.

 

Yes, if their product is only directed to the PWO audience and their sole profits are generated from that audience, I can see how he wouldn't appeal. But there's a gigantic piece of their business centered around house shows, non Raw/Smackdown TV programming and an age demographic that wants their parents to buy them merchandise when they go to events (or are in K-Mart). He's a JTTS who has settled in perfectly to a midcard role where he doesn't need to be pushed but can pop a crowd on a saturday afternoon because of his flashy moves and cool entrance.

 

That is exactly the type of guy I would want for my promotion.

[The Chief]

Re: Natalie

 

I agree that some wrestlers (I have seen this happen a ton of times with Divas/Knockouts) get called good and its sticks despite their being no 'best of' that can be convincingly assembled. Another one who gets the 'good wrestler' label is Winter/Katie Lea Burchill and Tara/Victoria. Both are pretty bad and while a case can be made for Tara/Victoria having passable matches, none can be made for Winter/Katie. When I say Natalie is a good worker, what I mean by that is that she has shown she is not going to break someone's neck in the ring. I have seen matches were I am SHOOT fearful of another woman's life because she is CLEARLY in the ring with someone who has no business there.

 

Natalie is probably the safest woman in either TNA or WWE to work with and she doesn't mind showing ass instead of adopting the female Davey Richards gimmick. Her being safe and technically sound (her judo techniques are WAY better than Eve's UGLY and not believable BJJ techniques) puts her in the good worker category in my book (but then again look at her competition). If GoodHelmet created Natalie comp TODAY, are there a series of matches, let alone a match that I am clamoring to see? No. I haven't found a good way to describe my thoughts on Natalie as I have never talked about a wrestler being serviceable in the ring, but not being able to put together ANYTHING of any type of worth for YEARS. The match with Ivory at some indy show was pretty good IIRC, but one match in almost 10 years?

The quick answer is that most "smarks" think that if you are not a supermodel, that somehow means you must be a good worker. And vice versa.

[MikeCampbell]

A couple of years ago, when Dolph and Kofi were tearing things up every week, I thought it was criminal that they were stuck in the lower card, and feuding over the IC and US straps. Once Kofi got away from Dolph, things went downhill.

 

I agree with Brad's point though, Kofi is the type of guy that you keep around for the kids and merch buying types.

[Steven]

I agree with Brad's point though, Kofi is the type of guy that you keep around for the kids and merch buying types.

The thing is...Kofi really isn't that over anymore. He's been kind of jobbed out lately and that's been hurting him. I don't think he's much of a merch mover either. Plus he's been stuck in a feud with the heat vacuum Miz (who's stock has dropped so sharply in only two years).

 

The kind of guy you described is great to keep around. Santino's really over with the kids/general audience and I'm sure those Cobra socks probably sell a ton. R-Truth is someone who's good to keep around. The crowd loves the interaction they get with the What's Up entrance and he's perfectly fine in the tag team he's in now. To be honest, Truth is a guy who I think has more to offer. He was really on a roll a few years ago as a heel before they turned him face again because of the Little Jimmy stuff.

[goc]

I agree with Brad's point though, Kofi is the type of guy that you keep around for the kids and merch buying types.

The thing is...Kofi really isn't that over anymore. He's been kind of jobbed out lately and that's been hurting him. I don't think he's much of a merch mover either. Plus he's been stuck in a feud with the heat vacuum Miz (who's stock has dropped so sharply in only two years).

 

The kind of guy you described is great to keep around. Santino's really over with the kids/general audience and I'm sure those Cobra socks probably sell a ton. R-Truth is someone who's good to keep around. The crowd loves the interaction they get with the What's Up entrance and he's perfectly fine in the tag team he's in now. To be honest, Truth is a guy who I think has more to offer. He was really on a roll a few years ago as a heel before they turned him face again because of the Little Jimmy stuff.

 

I agree that Truth was doing some really good stuff as a heel before they messed it up teaming him with Miz and then turning him face. But he was really disappointing in the ring during this time period to me. I thought his main event match with Cena at Capitol Punishment was maybe Cena's weakest PPV main event match. I was just expecting him to be more vicious in the ring go along with the character change.

[Jimmy Redman]

Re: Natalie

 

I agree that some wrestlers (I have seen this happen a ton of times with Divas/Knockouts) get called good and its sticks despite their being no 'best of' that can be convincingly assembled. Another one who gets the 'good wrestler' label is Winter/Katie Lea Burchill and Tara/Victoria. Both are pretty bad and while a case can be made for Tara/Victoria having passable matches, none can be made for Winter/Katie. When I say Natalie is a good worker, what I mean by that is that she has shown she is not going to break someone's neck in the ring. I have seen matches were I am SHOOT fearful of another woman's life because she is CLEARLY in the ring with someone who has no business there.

 

Natalie is probably the safest woman in either TNA or WWE to work with and she doesn't mind showing ass instead of adopting the female Davey Richards gimmick. Her being safe and technically sound (her judo techniques are WAY better than Eve's UGLY and not believable BJJ techniques) puts her in the good worker category in my book (but then again look at her competition). If GoodHelmet created Natalie comp TODAY, are there a series of matches, let alone a match that I am clamoring to see? No. I haven't found a good way to describe my thoughts on Natalie as I have never talked about a wrestler being serviceable in the ring, but not being able to put together ANYTHING of any type of worth for YEARS. The match with Ivory at some indy show was pretty good IIRC, but one match in almost 10 years?

The quick answer is that most "smarks" think that if you are not a supermodel, that somehow means you must be a good worker. And vice versa.

 

The amount of people I've seen who think Tamina is good solely for the above reason makes my head hurt.