Smackdown Six Era

[Eduardo]

Agree that the first half was a bit boring. I remember thinking a Benoit-Angle match from a few months prior, at Unforgiven 2002, had a way better first half. I remember Angle-Benoit doing the bit where one of them takes the other's back, crosses his feet, and the other one counters by putting his legs over his opponents crossed-feet to put pressure on their ankles/legs. It's a BJJ technique to counter on the mistake of crossing your feet when taking someone's back.

[ohtani's jacket]

I will never understand the criticism of the Smackdown Six era. I quit watching before that era began and when I went back and watched it for the Smarkschoice poll it was like "fuck, here is the kind of wrestling I was desperate for in '99." That era was better ring-wise than anything from the Monday Night Wars era and was probably the best TV wrestling since 1992 WCW. I don't get looking a gift horse in the mouth.

[Gregor]

OK, so I got curious and checked the match out for the first time in maybe six or seven years and I think the second time ever. I'm not a fan of either guy or this era of WWE, but I thought it was pretty good. The execution was obviously good, and the finishing run (the whole match, really) seemed a lot less choreographed than WWE matches started to feel later in the decade. A lot of the stuff that I expected to bother me didn't. Angle's pop-up superplex seemed like a ruse, and Benoit didn't go into spasms after hitting his headbutt and make me wonder why he even bothered with it. There weren't any of the little details that people here love, and neither guy's character was evident in their work, so it did feel a bit like an empty exhibition.

 

My two biggest disconnects with what's been posted here were with the Sharpshooter teases and the heat segment. Maybe the teases did lead to a bigger pop for the Sharpshooter, but when Benoit finally got it on it was a throwaway spot five minutes into the match. Putting work into building up an early spot that has no bearing on the match seems like the opposite of smart wrestling to me.

 

On the other hand, the match clearly had a heat segment. Angle gives Benoit an overhead suplex, Angle works him over a bit outside, Angle puts him in a rear chinlock, Benoit fights out and hits the ropes, Angle cuts him off with another overhead suplex, Angle applies the chinlock again, Benoit fights out, and they do a double clothesline. That's a basic WWE heat segment. I could see arguments that it wasn't good or interesting, or that if a match goes twenty minutes then more than four should be devoted to the heat segment, but they did do one.

[Badlittlekitten]

I've never seen Angle Vs Benoit for some reason. I might watch it in a minute but the thought of going back and watching HIM makes me a touch nauseous to be honest. I find it REALLY hard to stomach Kurt Angle and his suplexing boringness these days.

 

As for Raw, well it was shit as usual. Orton's "you can all kiss my ass!" speech was the best thing he's done since the random Rick Rude promo he did a while back. He's comically awful at speaking anyway so you may as well have a bit of fun with it, be a bit silly from time to time. I was gonna do a big moan about the announce team taking 'selfies' while a match was happening but it doesn't matter really because nothing really matters anyway. They are not stars. They are nothing beyond wrestlers who wrestle every other wrestler every week for no reason beyond wrestling. There's no purpose or motivation or consequence. No stories, character development, consistency. Just heat leaching Authority Figures and a roster full of ineffective pillocks parity booked into monotony. A commentary team that just wants to have a laugh and be done with the silly wrestling shite and take selfies. It's like they turn up every week and creative throws its hands up and goes "shit guys, looks like we forgot this week! Tell you what, tell all the guys to go twenty minutes and nobody will notice", and then the wrestlers wrestle, forever, for nothing, for fucks sake, whoops! I'm doing a moan!

 

But yeah, Big E Mark/ Real Americans and Randy/Bryan were fucking excellent if you're into that sort of thing.

[NintendoLogic]

Benoit's Sharpshooter spots were terrible. Using a previously protected submission finisher as a glorified resthold less than ten minutes into a match is indefensible on pretty much every level. See also the endless Sharpshooter reversal sequence in the Smackdown Austin match that was at least as self-indulgent as anything Benoit did with Angle.

[Loss]

One day I will learn to stop going on memory.

[Badlittlekitten]

Stick to your guns Loss. If you remember enjoying it you enjoyed it.

[Loss]

I'm not denying that I enjoyed it. I obviously did. I am just saying maybe the sharpshooter stuff wasn't built up and executed as well as I remembered.

[Badlittlekitten]

Would anybody be kind enough to knock up a list of all the best Smackdown Six stuff? Been meaning to check out that stuff for a while (also need to watch more Rey Mysterio in general, so two birds and all that).

[Slasher]

I've never seen Angle Vs Benoit for some reason. I might watch it in a minute but the thought of going back and watching HIM makes me a touch nauseous to be honest. I find it REALLY hard to stomach Kurt Angle and his suplexing boringness these days.

Ya know, I think I understand what you were saying but reading that void of context, made me laugh.

[Badlittlekitten]

Those TNA throw fests were pure torture I tell ya. I get a little sick in my mouth every time I think of going back.

[Jimmy Redman]

Would anybody be kind enough to knock up a list of all the best Smackdown Six stuff? Been meaning to check out that stuff for a while (also need to watch more Rey Mysterio in general, so two birds and all that).

In my own humble opinion of course (and short of seeing Will about the whole shebang, which is the best option), here's a top 10 off the top of my head...

 

Angle vs Rey, Summerslam 2002

Angle vs Rey, Smackdown 12/9/02 (I like this better than SS)

Edge vs Eddie G (No DQ), Smackdown 26/9/02

Benoit vs Rey, Smackdown 3/10/02

Angle & Benoit vs Los Guerreros, Smackdown 17/10/02

Edge & Rey vs Angle & Benoit, No Mercy 2002

Edge & Rey vs Los Guerreros, Smackdown 24/10/02

Edge & Rey vs Angle & Benoit (2/3 Falls), Smackdown 7/11/02

Rey vs Eddie G, Smackdown 14/11/02

Edge & Rey vs Angle & Benoit vs Los Guerreros (Elimination), Survivor Series 2002

 

If you want to include the auxiliary players from the period, there's also stuff like,

 

Edge & Rey & Cena vs Angle & Eddie & Benoit, Smackdown 8/8/02

Angle & Benoit vs Billy & Chuck, Smackdown 19/9/02 (their first odd-couple tag)

Angle & Benoit vs Kidman & Cena, Smackdown 10/10/02 (beginning of the title tourney, short but fun)

Edge & Rey vs Brock& Tajiri, Smackdown 10/10/02 (also short, also fun)

Los Guerreros vs Benoit & Kidman, Smackdown 12/12/02

 

There's other more famous stuff like the Angle/Edge/Eddie/Benoit four-way and Angle/Benoit at Unforgiven that I didn't really like as much as other stuff, but lots of other people do.

[Badlittlekitten]

Nice one Jimmy. I will have to inspect the tubes for them yawnnn I'm more awake tomorrow. (Or more likely when I get round to finishing my SMW and oldshool ROH viewing. And me 80s Memphis and Mid South and New Japan. And the 90's All Japan and late seventies AJW that's all over the tubes. And the WOS and indy stuff I keep meaning to watch. So umm . . . probably not tomorrow.)

 

Although . . .

 

Will she bang

I wasn't aware of this.

[Strummer]

You also have to consider that the other main feud WWE was pushing at the time was Steiner-HHH, so Benoit-Angle was seen as this symbol of all that was good, while Steiner-HHH was everything we were rejecting from Vince. It was fun at the time even if it doesn't hold up now, the crowd response was great, standing ovation for Benoit after the match, etc.

 

I was going to post something similar to this. The next few days/week after this show on the net were incredible. Actually 02/03 had some classic internet reactions as a whole that I will never forget. The Bryan semi push this past summer is the first time I can recall an angle receiving the same types of responses. Even with Benoit and Eddy in 04/05 people were just so surprised they were pushed and many fans had stopped watching by that point anyway so there was less hoopla

[Chess Knight]

Re-watched Benoit/Angle at the Rumble few months back:

 

Kurt Angle v. Chris Benoit (Royal Rumble 1/19/03)

So yeah, this was good.....until it wasn't. At first it was a pretty heated Chris Benoit trying to quickly win the title from Angle, and Angle was carefully but just as quickly getting the hell out of the trouble he was in. The Sharpshooter, no matter where you see it, is a pretty protected move. Bret Hart in WWF, Sting in WCW, Riki Choshu in New Japan - it puts dudes away. So I really, really dug Angle scurrying the fuck out of the sharpshooter attempts by Benoit because he knew it could be over if Chris locked it in. I was looking forward to a potential 'Angle escapes Benoit's stuff' story, but I knew I wasn't going to get it (b/c I've seen this before duh). So Angle gets on offense, and it's kind of boring. Apparently his idea of a hope spot/control switch spot is an Irish whip and a belly-to-belly throw. Yeah, I dunno, it just bugged me. Why, of every move you can use to change from defense from offense would you use that? It's not the move itself- he used a belly-to-belly when Benoit came running after him, and I found that OK because he's actually catching a dude. But getting up after eating offense and then using an IRISH WHIP + that move just seems so out of place. Angle's submissions are boring as well. All right he has a dude in a choke/grapeviney thing, but I didn't care. It's a smart strategy and everything, but 'smart' doesn't always equal 'fun to watch', especially when 'smart' is 'immobile'. He wasn't doing anything while in it, and I wander off to the knee brace that he's supposed to be milking an injury out of that is completely ignored the whole match. OK, I didn't like Angle in control, but fuck, I hated Angle AND Benoit in control. German > German > German German > German. If these were German ATTEMPTS I would applaud them. No reason that'd be a bother, right? But no, they hit them. Aaaaaaaand crossface > ankle lock > crossface, ankle lock > ankle lock > crossface, German, goes to top rope > Angle sprints up top rope for belly to belly (ugh) > crossface...yeah, I don't give a shit. I get done praising Angle for making the sharpshooter look vicious and something that warrants concern, and then they spam the crap out of finishers in a way that makes them look like they pretty much CAN'T finish the match with any of them. This wasn't the worst case of this (or close to it), and they did the spammy finisher trade better than most might do the spammy finisher trade, but I just hate a fucking spammy finisher trade. One of the worst things about this is the neat shit they did in between all of this stuff. In another moment and match, Angle reversing the crossface with the 'banana split' pin would have been a great spot. Benoit's gigantic 'Angle lands on his belly' suplex would have been a great spot. Benoit reversing the German with the leg-scissor roll-up thingy would have been a great spot. They were in this match though, and this is a match I thought would hold up much better. I won't feel much need to ever watch this again.

Honestly this was the first watch of the match where I noticed they fell into 'not selling fuck all' to that degree. I can't call this 'garbage', but at the same time the second half kills the idea of me calling it 'good'.

[Sidebottom]

Add me to the list of people who loved the match at Royal Rumble 03. We can all nit pick things to death if we wanted. I could probably rip apart any match on the planet just for shits and giggles.

[goc]

"two über workrate guys workrate the fuck out of each other" is one of my favorite wrestling message board quotes of all time.

[anarchistxx]

Haven't watched Angle/Benoit in years, although at the time I loved it, as did most people. You have to contextualize it though; this was a time when Raw was utterly dreadful, plodding and repetitive, with HHH having an endless string of long, boring matches and promos. Smackdown was the fast paced alternative, booked by internet favorite Heyman and starring all the workrate legends like Benoit and Mysterio. So people were predisposed to like it, especially in the context of the show with that awful Steiner/Trips match. It was an amazing contrast - athletic, spectacular and exciting, as oppose to cumbersome, mundane and predictable.

 

There were also a lot of unique spots in the match at the time, at least in the context of a WWE main event; the DDT on the apron, the endless trading of suplexes, the long sequences of submission reversals. They were overdone in the subsequent years and became cliched tropes, but at the time were at least somewhat fresh.

 

It was also a time when a lot of internet smarks loved moves, reversals, near falls and long, drawn out endings with multiple false finishes. Again, overdone to fuck now, and there is no way to maintain that style as Davey Richards et al have shown - the logical conclusion to this particular trend. At the time, the match appealed to a lot of smark fetishes.

 

A lot of people resented the fact that Chris Benoit appeared to have dumbed down, with a much more limited moveset and very different style to his WCW stuff. This match was almost seen as him cutting loose, finally with a worthy opponent free of the shackles of 'WWE style' wrestling to put on a mat clinic.

[Matt D]

Benoit was the golden boy as early as 98 if not earlier. There was internet rejoicing and then massive frustration when the house show TV title win over Booker T happened and then wasn't acknowledge on TV.

[Ryan Faulconer]

I thought my original thought got a little off topic in the WWE thread. Thanks for moving it here.

 

I remember reading backlash against the Smackdown 6 era stuff before Angle left WWE and before the obvious repulsion towards all things Benoit in 2007. I mainly made the comment to compare it to the current crop of good matches on WWE TV. Its the law diminishing returns and all that comes with it.

 

It was definitely tied in with the DVDVR corner of the internet tiring of Angle. The only criticisms Benoit would usually get before June 2007 would be about his promos. Even those were getting a little better throughout his WWE years.

 

Goldust in 2013 is a lot more fun and engaging to watch.

[Jimmy Redman]

There were also a lot of unique spots in the match at the time, at least in the context of a WWE main event; the DDT on the apron, the endless trading of suplexes, the long sequences of submission reversals. They were overdone in the subsequent years and became cliched tropes, but at the time were at least somewhat fresh.

I agree with this point generally speaking, but in terms of Angle/Benoit I do want to make the point that the Rumble came at the end of the SD Six period, which had been going on for months and featured an abundance of the kind of finisher killing, suplex trading and submission reversals found in this match. I get that it was still fresh because it was a WWE Title match on a big PPV and got lots of eyeballs and felt important, but at the same time it's not like nobody had seen the match before if they had been paying even a cursory glance at Smackdown since September.

[anarchistxx]

Even during that period there hadn't been a match that had taken those elements to such lengths. Angle/Benoit from Unforgiven 2002 was worked substantially differently to the Rumble match.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

I do not agree that the Angle vs Benoit match at the Rumble was garbage. It is an excellent match that stands out from the pack and has excellent psychology. Like or dislike the match according to one's current thoughts and feelings but the match itself is excellent psychology for Angle/Benoit/numerous fans/myself and stands out from the pack from about 99% of the matches out there in every department in what makes wrestling great. This is wrestling the way I love it.

 

Unforgiven was also genius. Wrestlemania was very smart too.

What was so great about the psychology of Angle-Benoit? I fact, what even was the psychology of Angle-Benoit? Apart from "two über workrate guys workrate the fuck out of each other."

 

My memory of the match is that the psychology is non-existent. They just take turns doing moves, lots of moves. There's no story involved in any of it, and even the moves themselves werent that novel or interesting. they just did stuff. Going into my most recent viewing of it, I figured the overkill finisher-fest would piss me off the most. In fact, that was the best part of the match because at least it was exciting. Everything up until that point was just...doing moves, and not in a very interesting way.

 

I get liking the match, and I especially get liking the match if you're into the Kurt Angle, go go go, let's do lots of MOVES style, and liking it for its athleticism. I do not get the claim that the match has excellent psychology.

 

I've talked a lot about this match in the past and I like to now just watch wrestling or put time into my other interests instead of just getting too much into analysis and psychology talk. Thinking this way eventually hurts the enjoyment of wrestling imo and I've seen this happen to fans. I like thinking of matches as legit when you get lost in the moment, kind of like how an announcer would view it. I also don't like being a critic at times so my talk gets limited. I even delete posts after writing a good amount of words at times. But since you asked, I'll be respectful and try to remember some of my thoughts and feelings on the match.

I've seen this match a good amount but haven't seen it in awhile so I'm forgetting some stuff.

Some things I'd like to point out .....

The sharpshooter wether used by Benoit or not at this time was not a Bret Hart end of match type finisher. Benoit's had some power and some danger and although used some (It was actually after wrestling Benoit that the Rock started using it) it was definitely not a finisher. I would say this match actually upped the danger of Benoit's sharpshooter in the WWF because the importance this match gave it. It wasn't until the A-Train match at No Mercy 2003 that the sharpshooter became a lethal finisher for Benoit. This was when its value upped.

 

 

Psychology to me exists in every single match that has ever occurred. It is the why. It can be "good", "ok" or "bad" psychology but it is there. Everything is psychology.

 

Benoit felt the beginning of the match could have been more intense. Although very proud of this match, he wanted it to be better.

 

 

Okay, so back to why this match works. I will try to remember.

 

`1)The flow is terrific and flow to me is essential in enjoying a wrestling match. And this one has it. The beginning part of the match is not as strong in this department but is fine. The second part of the match has an A+ flow and is totally congruent to the type of match they were going for. Great timing, rhythm and escalation here. Overall, I say Unforgiven has a better flow as that is A+ from start to finish in that department. Wrestlemania has flow too and is a great match but is not as strong as the Unforgiven and Rumble classics. Also, the match after the Rumble on Smackdown was fantastic for flow. Flow to me is a humongous part of psychology and absolutely essential on how I enjoy and rate wrestling matches.

2)To make this point, I want to take a look at the 3 most well known Angle vs Benoit matches. Mania, Unforgiven and the Rumble. All wrestled the way they should've been at the time they should have been. This actually shows restraint on Angle vs Benoit's part which is something some of their critics say they don't have against each other. You can't wrestle Unforgiven's match at the Rumble or Mania's match at Unforgiven etc. And that is smart psychology.

From the very get go Angle vs Benoit was all about one upmnaship technically with two guys innovatively and passionately going at it. From the very first Raw when the match was announced? when Benoit one upped Angle in a technical exchange that had me marking out of my mind this was what this was all about. From all their backstage segments and interviews and talks to their actions in the ring it was what this was all about. And they wrestled the matches like this which is why the clear examples of trading germans and submission spots for example are absolutely freaking brilliant psychology. A clear demonstration on what Benoit and Angle were fighting hmm I should say wrestling about.

When you look at Mania, it was exactly the match they were supposed to have at the time. It said a lot about who they were, where they were at and sets the groundwork for the future. Unforgiven is about total one-upmanship and nothing else. The whole match is wrestled that way and is absolutely freaking genius in doing so. Almost a perfect match and would've been if it weren't for a slip there with the Peterson Roll before Angle got Benoit into the Angle Lock. If they were going for what I think they were going for. The ending itself is beyond epicness and fits unbelievably well with what they were doing. An all time fav ending and super strong psychology. Rumble was about epicness combined with one-upmanship which was what they were building to beforehand. That's the match they had to wrestle, that's the match they did wrestle and kudos to them for it. Excellent psychology. The ending with the AngleLock03 was also seemingly meant for an epic rematch which would've had Benoit winning and overcoming the AngleLock 03 but alas that never happened. Smart wrestling. They did have an excellent match on Smackdown shortly afterwards.

3)The beginning of the Rumble match was pretty good although not as legendary as say Unforgiven's starting. The positives of it is that it keeps your interest, is compelling and allows the 2nd half of the match to feel more special for the big lengthy climax. The sharpshooter stuff was strong overall with it being worked with every time Benoit trying a new way to lock it on. It also puts some danger into the match but at the same time not too, too much as the sharpshooter as aluded to before only had a certain level of strength here. It also allows the stronger level of submissions later on to stand out more.

What works with the sharpshooter also works with the flying headbutt. Benoit has to work hard to nail his always over flying headbutt finisher so by the time he hits it the third time the fans are literally drooling for it. This is something that always works in pro wrestling but what makes it even grander here is how on the 3rd time Benoit through his body language makes sure to draw every single bit of emotion, tension and emotion out of the audience. Cole picked up on this and was great announcing at this moment. Couple this with one of his best looking long distance headbutts ever after a smart one-upmanship spot that ends with the flip over german and it puts goosebumps on the audiences arms. People see that actual real life effort and it draws them in allowing them to get lost in the moment even more. Strong psychology and not random psychology.

4)There is counter learning from match to match to match which is shown in the Rumble here. Also, there is in ring learning countering as well which I remember being done in a heated, emotional moment of the match. At the end there I belive where Benoit goes for a crossface reversal that he had used earlier but Angle holds on. There is also long counter learning submission wrestling in the Smackdown match after the Rumble.

5)Going back, I remember the double clothesline spot being great for a wakeup call for the audience to get more into the match which is what they needed at the time

6) The match escalates well which I mentioned before with the flow. They never go overboard but toll the line exactly like they should which is impressive considering that they do a lot and are wrestling an epic one-upmanship match storyline wise. Smart.

7)I just love the smart, innovative countering they do which fits so well into their personalities and stores at the time. Afterwards, all escapes from going to your back from an angle lock attempt to a lot of other moves would be used again by others but at the time they were brand new.

 

I enjoy the match a lot and believe it's smart and not random wrestling. It works on the majority of fans from my perspective. It's not perfect but it is tremendous. I think Unforgiven is almost perfect but you can't compare the two totally fairly because the objectives of the matches were different. This is what I personally get from Benoit vs Angle.

[goodhelmet]

Fuck yeah, Resident Evil is back!!!!

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

Fuck yeah, Resident Evil is back!!!!

Back in black

I hit the sack

I've been too long I'm glad to be back

Yes I'm, let loose

From the noose

That's kept me hanging about

I keep looking at the sky

'Cause it's gettin' me high

Forget the herse 'cause I'll never die

I got nine lives

Cat's eyes

Usin' every one of them and running wild

 

'Cause I'm back

Yes, I'm back

Well, I'm back

Yes, I'm back

Well, I'm back, back

(Well) I'm back in black

Yes, I'm back in black

 

Back in the back

Of a Cadillac

Number one with a bullet, I'm a power pack

Yes, I'm in a bang

With a gang

They've got to catch me if they want me to hang

Cause I'm back on the track

And I'm leadin' the pack

Nobody's gonna get me on another rap

So look at me now

I'm just makin' my play

Don't try to push your luck, just get out of my way

 

'Cause I'm back

Yes, I'm back

Well, I'm back

Yes, I'm back

Well, I'm back, back

(Well) I'm back in black

Yes, I'm back in black