Kane? Really?

[S.L.L.]

 

Perhaps if everyone in wrestling looked ordinary I would be inclined to agree with you. But I think looking different is more important than looking big in getting over.

 

This, in and of itself, would be a great discussion. There was a time when everyone in WWE looked pretty much the same not too long ago: frat boys, super tan with tribal tattoos (Batista, Orton, Jindrak, O'Haire, etc) and the people that stood out where those that DIDN'T look like that.

 

You may have inadvertently hit on that earlier when you said this:

 

There's a reason Hogan got the role in Rocky 3, people have an idea of what a WRESTLER is.

 

 

In 1981, when Rocky III was in production, the biggest drawing card in American wrestling was Bob Backlund. The biggest "star" in American wrestling was probably Andre the Giant. Ranked underneath those two, you'll see names like Ric Flair, Harley Race, Don Muraco, Tommy Rich, Junk Yard Dog, Nick Bockwinkel, and Dusty Rhodes. Whatever 1981's idea of a wrestler was, Hogan benefited from being different from it.

 

Of course, whenever you have that kind of success in wrestling, you have a ton of people who learn the wrong lesson from it and figure that if one guy like that was big business, then a billion guys like that will make business a billion times bigger. Instead, it just devalues the traits that made the first guy big in the first place. That's why I wanted to know what you meant when you said that Bryan's size matters. The fact is, a wrestler being big has been a wholly unremarkable trait for over 20 years now. Bryan is clearly not affected by it in terms of fan acceptance, and if anything, it plays in his favor by setting him apart.

 

Also, if you're going to complain about how you can't book a top guy as a constant underdog, you probably shouldn't defer to the wisdom of the people who made the Rocky sequels.

[dexstar]

I'm not sure that Daniel Bryan is an underdog in near the same way as Rey Mysterio or other "small guys". I also don't think people will reject him because of his size, I think he connects with people way better than that.

Not an Underdog

If we start at the first Raw after Wrestlemania 29, let's look at his year:

- He came out with Kane to save the Undertaker from the Shield in the prime of their undefeated, vicious group heel push. He was playing the role of the Undertaker in "badass deux ex machina" team, saving of all people, the Undertaker. And his size wasn't mentioned. It was presented as completely normal.

- He went on a psychotic run to prove he isn't the weak link, and was portrayed as a straight equal to Randy Orton. And he beat the Shield up - on his own.

- When John Cena, the moral arbiter of WWE, was given the chance to pick his own opponent, he picked the most deserving, and the crowd completely bought it.

- He pinned John Cena clean. Not a fluke.

- NOW he's an underdog - but he's an underdog because the boss is against him and his former monster partner is against him and anyone who wants to keep their job is against him. He's a Stone Cold underdog, not Rey.

- He beats Orton and gets screwed. Then it takes HHH and HBK (in WWE storyline canon, basically two of the best wrestlers ever) to put him down at Hell in the Cell.

- He is the first guy to outsmart and kick the hell out of the Wyatts

- He gets screwed out of the Elimination Chamber win by evil Kane, but is clearly presented as the guy who "should" have won

- HHH can only beat him down by getting a bunch of fake cops to handcuff him

- He comes back from that and beats HHH down with no real comeback

- He beats HHH clean

- He gets off a stretcher, after taking a RKO and Batista Bomb, comes back, knocks Orton out with the knee, and makes Batista tap clean.

Maybe I'm misreading it. But from his actual performances on TV, I don't think they push him as an underdog because of size or in the same way as Mysterio. They push him as a complete badass who would practically never lose if he wasn't double teamed by main eventers or completely screwed by the boss. It's way more Austin than Mysterio to me. Which leads me to ...

The Size

I don't think this is a negative. I think he connects with people.

- He loses in 18 seconds at Mania, and comes out more over

- He gets put in a tag team with Kane, and gets more over

- He gets screwed repeatedly with fuck finishes, and gets more over

- He completely leaves the title scene, loses to Bray, and gets more over

People like this guy. It's more than "YES!", because that's been around since Mania 28. It's because his in-ring style isn't lame, he looks credible at his size because he's throwing himself around like a cannonball, kicking people in the head, and completely out-hustling them at every turn. He's almost always portrayed as a wrecking ball, and people like it.

The "yes!" chant isn't turning up in MLB and at MSU basketball games and other places just because it's fun to chant. It's because the people who watch a lot of sports and some wrestling like Daniel Bryan. He's like the Wes Welker of the WWE, and that's a very deliberate choice of comparison. He's a kinda short, kinda normal looking white guy who happens to be a badass. I think his lack of steroided out physique is definitely, as mentioned earlier, a huge plus simply because it IS different from people have been seeing.

He doesn't yell and scream like a neanderthal, he doesn't have elaborate cringey catchphrases, he's a bit of a throwback, and he's over with the people who kinda watch Raw but not all the time. That's crossover potential (potential, not guaranteed) and his track record leads me to believe that no matter what crazy booking they throw at him, if they keep the general character the same and let him do his thing, he's gonna stay over. And him-Lesnar will be a huge SummerSlam draw for them.

[Tim Evans]

If Size really mattered, wouldn't Mason Ryan and Big Zeke be 10 time world heavyweight champions?

[Coffey]

If Size didn't matter, wouldn't Crash Holly and Colin Delaney be 10 time world heavyweight champions?

 

Obviously it's not the only thing that matters. Does Hogan or André work if they're both 5'10"?

[Dylan Waco]

Are you arguing that Crash and Delaney had world champion talent and the only thing that precluded them from being champions was their size?

[El-P]

Personnality/character is what sells. Not size.

Now, the business model of the WWE has always sold size has an important matter. That's why they never understood how to promote guys like Rey on top. That's why they pushed a number of big guys who failed miserably too.

[Loss]

Someone made the point here about bodybuilding culture not really being relevant since the 1980s, and I thought that was a great point. The thing is, people in the wrestling bubble never got the memo, so that's still their perception of what a top star looks like. I think the key is variety more than any one type.

[Coffey]

Are you arguing that Crash and Delaney had world champion talent and the only thing that precluded them from being champions was their size?

No, I was mocking Tim Evans. C'mon.

[efrim]

Someone made the point here about bodybuilding culture not really being relevant since the 1980s, and I thought that was a great point. The thing is, people in the wrestling bubble never got the memo, so that's still their perception of what a top star looks like. I think the key is variety more than any one type.

 

Yeah, I think Bodybuilding culture is very irrelevant in an era of UFC and cross fit, P90X, et al. In the 80's it was timely to sell the idea of these guys with massively inflated glamour muscles as the baddest athletes on the planet. These days, everybody knows that top athletes and super fit people don't get those kind of bodies. I think its now actually easier for guys like Cesaro and Bryan because they demonstrate marathon endurance (Bryan) and massive practical strength (Cesaro). I think thats closer to the kind of fitness that captures the imagination today.