PDRMatt Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I'm surprised we are three pages in and no one is going to have the discussion that it was all a work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I don't like Bret at all, he's whiney and arrogant and i disagree with him on lots of things but he didn't do anything wrong in the situation. He was willing to lose to Shawn, he was willing to lose to Austin, just not in that place at that time. He was a team player who lost every other time they asked him too. He even lost to Hunter on RAW by DQ that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I'd like to think Loss refers to the contract Vince broke and that's his point. The contract for "creative control" was written and agreed to in the spirit that Bret would have direction with his character. I don't believe this should have given him the right to decide if and when he could lose the title. What, if he didn't want to lose it, could have left the Federation and gone to WCW without dropping the title? No fucking way. The "creative control" contract was written so Vince didn't dress him up like a fucking clown and make him come out on Raw and wrestle in a slop pit with Henry Godwin. If Vince asked him to drop the company championship at Survivor Series, he should have. He could have had control of how it happened (pinfall after interference, clean, etc), but the belt has to change when the boss says. Bret owns his character with that contract, but not the belt. Reasonable creative control meant that both sides had to agree, as opposed to absolute creative control like Hogan had in WCW where he could simply dictate what was going to happen. And there was zero chance of Bret showing up on Nitro with the belt because the WWF had a lawsuit pending against WCW over the Madusa incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Was money really the reason Vince was so gung ho to let Bret go? Or was he just tired of him and wanting to go in a new direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I'd love to say it was neither and just his love for Shawn Michaels. But honestly I think it was a combination of all 3. I wonder if, when Vince realized Shawn was out for a LONG time after RR98 and there was no guarantee Austin would take off as much as he did if he ever regretted it. Tend to doubt it though. One thing Bret didn't do is show up on WCW with the world title. That Flair guy did which was what inspired this thread to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDRMatt Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Let me ask you this: was the Vince McMahon heel turn inevitable storyline-wise or was he merely a victim of circumstance who stumbled into this great change in wrestling? It's not like he didn't already work heel low-key in Memphis several years before with basically the same Mr. McMahon character traits. The paradigm seems to be that he "screwed" Bret in real life, the people didn't like that, so then WWF capitalized on this tough situation and slowly turned Vince into the main heel on the show, but everything about the product at the time says differently. People look at this thing behind the scenes way too much and don't look enough at the product. The seeds were planted for a Vince heel turn as soon as Bret shoved Vince down in the Sid cage match back in February. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Let me ask you this: was the Vince McMahon heel turn inevitable storyline-wise or was he merely a victim of circumstance who stumbled into this great change in wrestling? It's not like he didn't already work heel low-key in Memphis several years before with basically the same Mr. McMahon character traits. The paradigm seems to be that he "screwed" Bret in real life, the people didn't like that, so then WWF capitalized on this tough situation and slowly turned Vince into the main heel on the show, but everything about the product at the time says differently. People look at this thing behind the scenes way too much and don't look enough at the product. The seeds were planted for a Vince heel turn as soon as Bret shoved Vince down in the Sid cage match back in February. If you're suggesting everyone was in on it, It's wrestling, so I assume everything is a storyline at some level. And this one seemed like making lemonade out of lemons on so many levels. But, you'd have to believe the truth about it would have come out by now. If you're suggesting McMahon was going to be a heel no matter how this played out, I'm with you 100%. I can't think of a better way of launching that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 There is less than no chance a WWE countersuit would have capped at half a million. I've seen workplace suits with nothing nearly as severe with people suing for well into the 7 figures Possibly in the states....you guys love the punitive damages. If the suit were filed in Canada, not so much. Either way, there would be no (realistic) way to get damages for tv monitors up to what the remainder of the contract, had it been legally breached, was worth. You think Vince McMahon isn't getting that suit litigated in America and that an American court is going to choose Canadian law? I really wish we had a copy of it, then we could know for sure. The screw job and Bret's actions happened afterwards, sure, but the contract dispute and a counterclaim are coming if Bret sues on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 There is less than no chance a WWE countersuit would have capped at half a million. I've seen workplace suits with nothing nearly as severe with people suing for well into the 7 figures Possibly in the states....you guys love the punitive damages. If the suit were filed in Canada, not so much. Either way, there would be no (realistic) way to get damages for tv monitors up to what the remainder of the contract, had it been legally breached, was worth. You think Vince McMahon isn't getting that suit litigated in America and that an American court is going to choose Canadian law? I really wish we had a copy of it, then we could know for sure. The screw job and Bret's actions happened afterwards, sure, but the contract dispute and a counterclaim are coming if Bret sues on it. If there were a contract dispute, it would almost definitely be US based. I can't imagine their contract would be governed under anywhere but there. I'm unfamiliar with Connecticut's conflicts rules are though, so don't know if a suit regarding the damage to the monitors would be filed there as well. All of which is a moot point though obviously. Also, if Mcmahon's suggestion that the WWF wouldn't be able to keep paying the contract had been a breach, and Hart sued, we never would have had the screw job, so there would have been no bad actions by Bret to counter sue on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 You are the only person I've ever spoken to who alleges the contract wasn't breached. Bret punching out his boss and destroying thousands of dollars of equipment on live t.v. killed any chance of him suing. Which is why Vince McMahon gave him carte blanche to deck him one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Why would I side with either party at this point? It happened 17 years ago. Both sides have made their peace with one another. There is no real side anymore. Both sides got over it and moved on with their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I'm siding with Cesaro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I'm wondering when the right moment would be to admit that this whole thread was a work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I look forward to your heel character in the new year, especially when Will and Johnny Sorrow attack you with a beer truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I'm wondering when the right moment would be to admit that this whole thread was a work. Just like Montreal. Very meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 After all those posts and not a single reply from you, I started to wonder if you were just stirring the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Yeah, I don't really like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I was in a bit of a pissy mood and wanted to move Montreal talk out of the WTBBP thread. Flair/Bret comparisons seem to have that effect on me.For what it's worth, I do tend to come down on Vince's side, but not 100% (because of the CC clause in Bret's contract, technically puts him in the right). But I think Steve Austin's argument about it is the best one: Vince had gone down all the other avenues and had to do what was best for his company.From all the accounts I've heard from umpteen different people, Vince had tried absolutely everything and all it really comes down to is Bret being precious about doing a job on the way out -- a tradition as old as wrestling itself. He wouldn't, and so got screwed by the promoter, who'd got paranoid -- another tradition as old as wrestling itself.Legally, probably Bret was in the right, but I don't really care about that. Morally, I don't really care in any idealist sense, it's pro wrestling, the game is the game. Consequentially -- in terms that Machiavelli or Jeremy Bentham might recognize -- Vince did the right thing. The net gain of doing it outweighed the net loss. The birth of evil Mr. McMahon is a nice, possibly unforeseen bonus, on top of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I think this argument is too framed around our personal opinions. A contract is a contract is a contract. BINGO…end of story... The WWF was in deep trouble…that belt showing up on WCW TV would have finished them and Vince knew it. He gave Bret outs and he wouldn't take them…Bret wanted all that money, he needed to do the right thing. Put yourself in WWF's place, I know I would have done the same thing to save not only my company, but all those jobs contained within…Sure Bret and Vince had a great relationship, but Bret quickly took that money from Bischoff..who's to say he wouldn't take more to bring the title. Plus, Bret turns the belt in on RAW and leaves? REally? That would have been AWFUL for WWF as WCW would have been all over that saying we have your champ and he couldn't be beaten. Sure its in the past, but the opinion was the question and who's side was taken at that time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 Bret said he'd drop the belt to anyone but Shawn. There was something that happened that made Bret refuse to put Shawn over. I think location had some to do with it, but it was more Bret having personal problems with Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 There were other options. Have Bret drop the belt anywhere to anyone else and then THEY job to Shawn at Survivor Series. But that couldn't happen because Vince wanted to humiliate Bret on the way out in the way that felt the most personal and heartbreaking to Bret. With HHH and Shawn behind him all the way. Your point about it being right for business Parv? That's enough for you? That sure as heck isn't how Shakespeare would have written it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewar Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 Shawn said he wouldn't put over Bret if Vince asked him to. That's why Bret wouldn't drop the belt to Shawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 And come to that then how does that make what Flair did "Best for business" Exactly how was showing up on Prime Time with the WCW belt helping WCW out? So by that logic you'd be okay with Bret no showing Montreal and showing up the next night on Nitro with the WWF belt and laughing in Vince's face? I love your views on just about everything here Parv and almost always agreed with your perspective. But here.....I don't know. I think you're just misinformed about trying "Everything". Unless everything means you MUST lose to Shawn Michaels on this night at this arena despite him refusing to ever put you or ANYONE over again and basically spending a year trying to ruin your life and career. Let me pose this in a way you will relate to Parv. Your university tells you they are breaching your contract. BUT you are required to finish the term out in class as the assistant to the new professor. Whom you must praise and support all the time, and kiss ass to publicly and privately. And as they finish JDW walks through the door with a smile on his face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think this argument is too framed around our personal opinions. A contract is a contract is a contract. BINGO…end of story... The WWF was in deep trouble…that belt showing up on WCW TV would have finished them and Vince knew it. He gave Bret outs and he wouldn't take them…Bret wanted all that money, he needed to do the right thing. Put yourself in WWF's place, I know I would have done the same thing to save not only my company, but all those jobs contained within…Sure Bret and Vince had a great relationship, but Bret quickly took that money from Bischoff..who's to say he wouldn't take more to bring the title. Plus, Bret turns the belt in on RAW and leaves? REally? That would have been AWFUL for WWF as WCW would have been all over that saying we have your champ and he couldn't be beaten. Sure its in the past, but the opinion was the question and who's side was taken at that time... Bret pulling a Madusa wasn't going to happen. WCW themselves wouldn't let it happen, given Vince's lawsuit against them at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 There were other options. Have Bret drop the belt anywhere to anyone else and then THEY job to Shawn at Survivor Series. But that couldn't happen because Vince wanted to humiliate Bret on the way out in the way that felt the most personal and heartbreaking to Bret. With HHH and Shawn behind him all the way. Your point about it being right for business Parv? That's enough for you? That sure as heck isn't how Shakespeare would have written it. I don't believe Vince wanted to humiliate Bret, I think he was paranoid about Bret either going into business for himself, or hightailing it with the belt. Let's not talk about how Shakespeare would have written it, because Vince, Bret, and Shawn would either all be dead or married. And come to that then how does that make what Flair did "Best for business" Exactly how was showing up on Prime Time with the WCW belt helping WCW out? Flair just did what was best for Flair, he wasn't going to help a company who had just fired him. It's business, people are going to leverage whatever advantage they have. Flair 1 WCW 0 So by that logic you'd be okay with Bret no showing Montreal and showing up the next night on Nitro with the WWF belt and laughing in Vince's face? If Vince was stupid enough to let him get away it, but Vince being Vince and not Jim Herd made sure it didn't. Vince 1 Bret 0 I love your views on just about everything here Parv and almost always agreed with your perspective. But here.....I don't know. I think you're just misinformed about trying "Everything". Unless everything means you MUST lose to Shawn Michaels on this night at this arena despite him refusing to ever put you or ANYONE over again and basically spending a year trying to ruin your life and career. I'm not misinformed, I know the facts, I've heard them a million times. Shawn is a non-factor here in the way I look at it (see above). Did it HAVE to be Survivor Series? And Montreal? No, but better do it there with maximum exposure on a big PPV than quietly on a house show. Of course Bret doesn't want to lose in Montreal. Of course Bret has an ego. He's a pro wrestler, so what? Vince was thinking about the title and the day after Bret's gone, why should he give a shit about Bret's ego or career? It's business. Let me pose this in a way you will relate to Parv. Your university tells you they are breaching your contract. BUT you are required to finish the term out in class as the assistant to the new professor. Whom you must praise and support all the time, and kiss ass to publicly and privately. And as they finish JDW walks through the door with a smile on his face. He dies. Of actual murder. That day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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