Things Wrestlers Value that we don't

[ohtani's jacket]

Regal was never positioned to be in a match as important as Steamboat/Savage and WCW never had a show anywhere near as big as Wrestlemania III. I don't think Regal was a big match worker, but take away the setting and Steamboat/Savage isn't held in quite so high regard.

[Hobbes]

I've always found wrestler's distaste for heavily scripted matches to be silly. Wrestling has always been a business where weaknesses are covered up. Don't have a great look? Here's a mask. Can't cut a promo? Here's a manager who can. Yet those kind of fixes never receive the derision that scripting a match does. There are wrestlers out there who have a lot of good tools, are mechanically sound, but can't think on their feet to call a good match as it happens. To me, pre-planning their matches is just another smart way to patch up a hole in someone's talent. DDP is often derided for being a guy who loved to plot everything out, yet his match with Bill Goldberg at Halloween Havoc is considered by a lot of people to be one of the best Goldberg ever had. Hulk Hogan vs. Ultimate Warrior at WrestleMania VI surprised a lot of people in it's day for it's quality, and if I remember correctly, that whole match was rehearsed before the show.

 

I like stand up comedy. I've seen great comedians who could just work the crowd for an hour, all off the top of their head, and I've also seen great comedians who have clearly crafted every single joke they're saying down to the word over a period of months or years. I might be a little in awe of the people who can just improvise, but at the end of the day I don't look down on the comedians who have made me laugh just us much with much more deliberate work. It's the end result that indicates quality, not the difficulty of the process that made it. Regal and Austin enjoying Savage/Steamboat until they found out it was scripted out move for move is like someone eating a piece of cake, finding it delicious, only to change their mind when they find out it was made from a pre-packaged mix instead of from scratch. Maybe instead of that making you think less of the final product that you enjoyed, it should make you more open to the way it was made.

[C.S.]

I very much doubt that Savage drawing more than Steamboat had anything to do with their working styles.

 

No, but it might exemplify wider reasons for why Savage was so far ahead of Steamboat in terms of drawing power. While Steamer was possibly stuck in his own bubble (as evidenced by his distaste for the WM match), Savage may have been more open to different possibilities and ways of doing things. Also, Savage clearly put a lot more thought and care into his character and presentation, while Ricky was sort of all over the place with that (from a scientific, no-frills family man to a kung-fu warrior to The Dragon with the fire, etc.). Of course, part of that is probably because of the power each wrestler wielded - Savage clearly had more say-so over his character than Steamboat would have.

 

I love Steamboat as much as anyone else here, but I think it's healthy to analyze the shortcomings of some of these "sacred cow" wrestlers instead of pretending everything they did was perfect and above reproach.

 

Regal-Arn at SuperBrawl and Regal-Finlay at Uncensored are damn close if not there.

 

If I saw those, I don't remember them. That's not to say they were bad - I'm sure they were great - but it just goes to show you how behind the curveball WCW was when it came to creating and accentuating those "big moments." The WWE has shown complete mastery in that area. They've turned it into an art form. No other fed has come close in that department, although I will give credit to ECW for at least attempting to do the same with their moments. WCW, TNA, etc. are clueless about such things, and that's why one is out of business and the other will possibly be soon.

 

Regal was never positioned to be in a match as important as Steamboat/Savage and WCW never had a show anywhere near as big as Wrestlemania III. I don't think Regal was a big match worker, but take away the setting and Steamboat/Savage isn't held in quite so high regard.

 

I kind of touched on the same thing above. WM3 was a "big moment" because the WWE Machine knows how to create those better than any other company in the world (wrestling or not). However, was the greatness of Savage/Steamboat hyped after the fact, or did that sort of build in reputation over the years?

 

As for WCW never having a show as big as WM3, I argue that Starrcade '97 could have been that show for them, but WCW being WCW, of course it wasn't.

[JaymeFuture]

DDP is often derided for being a guy who loved to plot everything out, yet his match with Bill Goldberg at Halloween Havoc is considered by a lot of people to be one of the best Goldberg ever had.

 

And yet when Undertaker flies his opponents to Texas to PRACTICE WrestleMania matches, nobody says word one. Funny that.

[JerryvonKramer]

How big was that New Japan / WCW Supershow? If the gate is to be believed, it's not a million miles from WM3. A cheat, of course, but that was one of the biggest shows period for ages.

[BillThompson]

 

- Steamboat/Savage. Austin brought it up and Regal said he liked it right until he spoke to Steamboat and then they sort of moved on without going into detail but it has to be the script right?

I adore Regal, but has he EVER had a match as good as Savage/Steamboat?

 

 

Regal/Ohno is far better, while Regal/Cesaro and Regal/Steamboat from Fall Brawl '93 are around the same level, maybe slightly better.

[C.S.]

Regal/Ohno is far better, while Regal/Cesaro and Regal/Steamboat from Fall Brawl '93 are around the same level, maybe slightly better.

 

Those matches won't influence a generation of wrestlers though. What happens in the ring, IMO, is only one part of what makes a match great. This goes back to the WWE's incredibly ability to make its history matter (when it wants to, which it usually doesn't for NXT).

 

And while I'll readily admit I haven't seen the match, I honestly have a hard time believing that a flabby, unmotivated Kassius Ohno was better than Steamboat or Macho Man at anything on any day. I get that these ROH indy guys have a following on the internet, but that seems like a pretty big stretch.

[Childs]

And while I'll readily admit I haven't seen the match, I honestly have a hard time believing that a flabby, unmotivated Kassius Ohno was better than Steamboat or Macho Man at anything on any day. I get that these ROH indy guys have a following on the internet, but that seems like a pretty big stretch.

 

Take that straw man horseshit elsewhere. If you knew this place at all, you'd know indy stars are hardly sacrosanct compared to the Savages and Steamboats of the world. People love the Regal-Ohno match because they watched it and saw great performances from both guys. If you want to go watch it and then offer some specific analysis, feel free.

[ButchReedMark]

 

DDP is often derided for being a guy who loved to plot everything out, yet his match with Bill Goldberg at Halloween Havoc is considered by a lot of people to be one of the best Goldberg ever had.

 

And yet when Undertaker flies his opponents to Texas to PRACTICE WrestleMania matches, nobody says word one. Funny that.

 

 

It's pro wrestling. Not many things inspire hypocrisy in it's followers quite like our hobby does. Personally I'm fucking terrible for it.

[moazzam23]

 

 

Regal/Ohno is far better, while Regal/Cesaro and Regal/Steamboat from Fall Brawl '93 are around the same level, maybe slightly better.

Those matches won't influence a generation of wrestlers though. What happens in the ring, IMO, is only one part of what makes a match great. This goes back to the WWE's incredibly ability to make its history matter (when it wants to, which it usually doesn't for NXT).

 

And while I'll readily admit I haven't seen the match, I honestly have a hard time believing that a flabby, unmotivated Kassius Ohno was better than Steamboat or Macho Man at anything on any day. I get that these ROH indy guys have a following on the internet, but that seems like a pretty big stretch.

Actually Regal and the kinds of matches he works have influenced a lot of current WWE wrestlers, like Daniel Bryan, Ambrose and Cesaro. Sheamus and Barrett too to an extent.

[El-P]

 

DDP is often derided for being a guy who loved to plot everything out, yet his match with Bill Goldberg at Halloween Havoc is considered by a lot of people to be one of the best Goldberg ever had.

 

And yet when Undertaker flies his opponents to Texas to PRACTICE WrestleMania matches, nobody says word one. Funny that.

 

 

Taker is a sacred cow. All his "epic" WM matches have been ridiculously overrated over the years anyway. And yeah, DDP was a laughing stock for ever because of his habits of planning things out, hardcores loved to tell the story of Chris Benoit, that wonderful human being, trashing his script as it was a great gesture of knightly defense of the pro-wrestling tradition. But Taker has been considered as this great big match worker despite the fact all of his self-conscious WM "epics" that he had to work once a year were more akin to Hogan vs Warrior than your old school Ric Flair main-event in term of how they were put together. Funny indeed.

[pol]

I can't claim to really know anything about the mechanics of pro wrestling, but I'd assume that the spot-oriented (by which I don't mean 'spotfest', but building matches around big spots) style with stretch runs with big nearfalls that is popular with most fans these days pretty much necessitates a large amount of pre-planning. I've seen a few people claim that New Japan matches are largely called in the ring which I have a hard time believing.

[BillThompson]

 

Regal/Ohno is far better, while Regal/Cesaro and Regal/Steamboat from Fall Brawl '93 are around the same level, maybe slightly better.

 

Those matches won't influence a generation of wrestlers though. What happens in the ring, IMO, is only one part of what makes a match great. This goes back to the WWE's incredibly ability to make its history matter (when it wants to, which it usually doesn't for NXT).

 

And while I'll readily admit I haven't seen the match, I honestly have a hard time believing that a flabby, unmotivated Kassius Ohno was better than Steamboat or Macho Man at anything on any day. I get that these ROH indy guys have a following on the internet, but that seems like a pretty big stretch.

 

 

I'm not sure on your first point. You can already see Regal's influence in the young talent in the WWE today. Did any of those matches have the same reach or impact as Steamboat/Savage, no, they didn't. But, the matches I listed have shown to be influential to the current crop of young WWE talent, and at the end of the day they are examples of great in-ring wrestling and that's all that really matters to me.

 

Your second point doesn't merit much of a response as it's a complete strawman. Especially directed towards me, a guy who is usually very critical of RoH and most of their big names. But, great wrestling is great wrestling, doesn't matter where it comes from or who is involved. Then there's your unmotivated comment, watch two minutes of that match and I can't see anyone coming away saying Ohno was unmotivated.

[Hollinger.]

Also, Regal didn't really say anything negative about Steamboat/Savage. He said he considered it an all time great match, but that he had a hard time looking at it the same way after talking with Steamboat and hearing what he disliked about it.

 

A number of workers in this area love Randy Orton. Mostly praising him for doing "the little things" well and his camera work. I think the constantly working to the cameras is what makes him awkward and unnatural. Play to the building, it's the camera crew's job to shoot it well.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

I very much doubt that Savage drawing more than Steamboat had anything to do with their working styles.

 

No, but it might exemplify wider reasons for why Savage was so far ahead of Steamboat in terms of drawing power. While Steamer was possibly stuck in his own bubble (as evidenced by his distaste for the WM match), Savage may have been more open to different possibilities and ways of doing things. Also, Savage clearly put a lot more thought and care into his character and presentation, while Ricky was sort of all over the place with that (from a scientific, no-frills family man to a kung-fu warrior to The Dragon with the fire, etc.). Of course, part of that is probably because of the power each wrestler wielded - Savage clearly had more say-so over his character than Steamboat would have.

 

I love Steamboat as much as anyone else here, but I think it's healthy to analyze the shortcomings of some of these "sacred cow" wrestlers instead of pretending everything they did was perfect and above reproach.

 

I don't believe in sacred cows either, but I suspect the way Savage presented himself had a lot to do with his intensity. I can't say that Steamboat didn't care as much, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was something Savage obsessed over. It seems to me that the reason why Steamboat didn't enjoy working with Savage as much as say Flair was because Savage took planning things out to an extreme. It wasn't so much that they wrestled the match a bunch of times on house shows. They had notebooks where each spot was numbered. The pair of them memorised the match to the point where they could call out a number and the other guy would recite the rest of the match. That's so far removed from how wrestlers usually work that obviously Steamboat had more issues with it than he's ever revealed in public, certainly for Austin and Regal to react so strongly to their private conversations with Ricky.

 

I like both workers, but I would take Steamboat's body of work over Savages because of Dangerous Alliance era WCW. The fact that people have to come up with smallish Regal bouts kind of proves the point that he never had a match like Savage/Steamboat. He was essentially a TV worker. A great one, but a TV worker nonetheless. I think my favourite bout of his was the Larry Z one.

[Matt D]

I have no idea how having big or influential matches has anything to do with how good a wrestler is.

[ButchReedMark]

Maybe not big matches no, but I'd wager influential would have something to do with how good they are. I mean, to my (probably flawed) logic something would have to be a least a bit good for it to change things and inspire people to follow that persons style or whatever.

[ohtani's jacket]

I have no idea how having big or influential matches has anything to do with how good a wrestler is.

 

Being a big match worker takes skill and a certain level of ability. The fact that not every worker can do it means it's an attribute. How much you value that attribute is up to you, but I think it's a brilliant skill to have. Who doesn't love a big time match?

[Matt D]

Ultimate Warrior was a big match worker. Who's to say Regal couldn't do it? What's the big match he had that's not good? Vs Sting? Vs Jericho at Wrestlemania? What he was, was a guy with a substance abuse problem which cost him a couple of big runs where he might have had that opportunity. I don't know if I'd hold that against him as a wrestler. It's one thing if you have big matches and whiff. It's another if you don't have them.

[ohtani's jacket]

The Ultimate Warrior was not a big match worker. A "big match worker" in my parlance is a worker capable of creating a match that reaches a certain size or scale where you feel like you're watching something big. It doesn't have to be a big long epic. You could accomplish the same thing in 15 or 20 minutes if you're good enough. Regal seldom worked this way. The Larry Z match was an example of him putting on a really exciting big time television match, but most of his output was smaller, more detailed, more intimate work.

[Shining Wiz]

I love Savage/Steamboat. I do not care one iota how they got there, the end result was great. That being said, I can see why someone who takes pride in making improv great would not have enjoyed confining themselves to a tight script.

 

As for Regal ever having a match as good as it, I always really enjoyed Regal because he was different, but he was never in a position to have a match that great. Maybe completely out of context he's had matches as good or better, but a really good Super Bowl is always going to be better than a great game between two 3-13 teams because it means more. (No, I am not saying Regal is the Cleveland Browns, just to be clear). Savage/Steamboat had a strong story line, was at the biggest show of a super hot period and in front if a massive crowd. It was a bigger match than Regal was ever given the opportunity to take part in.

[Matt D]

Leaving Warrior aside, I'd argue that it wasn't usually Regal's role to do that on the midcard, and that when he was put in the role to do that, he generally did well, whether it be working Christian in 2009 or his big Raw match with HHH or the Pillman memorial match or some of the FCW/NXT big matches. It's just that he, more than most wrestlers I can think of, seems to know his role on the card and not to go into business for himself. When he's put in that position, he lives up to it.

 

While I downplayed influence before, I think he does have it as well as the major british/european style wrestler in the US over a 15 year period, as well as someone who helped a lot of other wrestlers with moves/finishers/etc.

[ohtani's jacket]

Midcard workers can still have big matches. Regal had an opportunity on monthly PPVs to have big matches. Some people might argue that he accomplished that with Arn and Steamboat and Johnny B. Badd, but that's not my recollection from when we did the WCW poll.

[ButchReedMark]

What about matches that felt big, if they weren't actually big. Regal managed that with Ambrose, certainly.

[Shining Wiz]

Midcard workers can still have big matches. Regal had an opportunity on monthly PPVs to have big matches. Some people might argue that he accomplished that with Arn and Steamboat and Johnny B. Badd, but that's not my recollection from when we did the WCW poll.

 

He had good matches. No doubt. But he was never a particular focal point of WCW put in a position to have a big, important match. He was a lower mid carder sent out to have good, impactful, physical matches. And I don't think, in the history of WCW, that there was a match as big as Steamboat/Savage. Better, most definitely. Bigger though, no.