BillThompson Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Are you really suggesting Bill that the hypothetical fan going into this having never seen Flair-Steamboat trilogy or Flair-Funk or Bret vs. Owen or whatever SHOULDN'T make it a priority to seek those things out? No, I don't think they should make it a priority. Even a few months ago I probably would have said yes. But, there is so much stuff that could be considered priority and by so many different people that I think people simply exploring whatever wrestling they choose to explore is what is best for them, and for the poll. I think we spend too much time worrying about canon and not enough time worrying about simply watching wrestling and finding the things that we love. If someone decides to seek out Flair/Steamboat and they love the heck out of it that's great. By the same token if they don't watch it and instead seek out Tanahashi/Okada and love the heck out of that pairing then that's great as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Someone should just make a "GWE SAMPLER PLATTER OF PIMPAGE". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Parv, do you think there should be a required viewing set in order to participate? I'm not trolling, it's something I was wondering about in general. I don't think it is wise to behave like there is no such thing as canon. Bill talking as if all pimped matches are on an equal footing is just willfully overlooking the reality of the situation. I don't know of any corner of fandom where Flair vs. Steamboat trilogy isn't pimped. They are "hyper canonical" as matches. Tanahashi vs. Okada just doesn't have that level of cache or history, and I see nothing to be gained from pretending that it does. Just so happens that we're probably in a situation where not a single person here hasn't seen those three matches, but they are just the most exreme example. I don't think there should be "required viewing", but I do think the argument that people shouldn't seek stuff out that is pimped for whatever reason is 100% against the spirit of the project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 That's all fair enough Parv. Personally though, I find that when I go down the 'watching pimped stuff' road it can start to feel like homework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'm all about "doing your homework" Mick, always have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 When that entails watching stuff like the Hansen vs. Colon feud, is it such an awful thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Parv, do you think there should be a required viewing set in order to participate? I'm not trolling, it's something I was wondering about in general. I don't think it is wise to behave like there is no such thing as canon. Bill talking as if all pimped matches are on an equal footing is just willfully overlooking the reality of the situation. I don't know of any corner of fandom where Flair vs. Steamboat trilogy isn't pimped. They are "hyper canonical" as matches. Tanahashi vs. Okada just doesn't have that level of cache or history, and I see nothing to be gained from pretending that it does. Just so happens that we're probably in a situation where not a single person here hasn't seen those three matches, but they are just the most exreme example. I don't think there should be "required viewing", but I do think the argument that people shouldn't seek stuff out that is pimped for whatever reason is 100% against the spirit of the project. It depends on your wrestling circles. I know of some where Tanahashi/Okada wouldn't just be viewed as required viewing, but as more important to view than Flair/Steamboat. That is why I don't really think canon is super important anymore, who is to say whose canon is the right canon? There are matches that I would say are very important and must see, but others wouldn't agree. The same is true in reverse of course. Wrestling has become all about the journey for me, and I like the not oft traveled path just as much as the well trodden one. As long as I'm watching and exposing myself to wrestling I don't think it matters at the end of the day if the wrestling is heavily pimped or canon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 The main outcome of this exchange is that I probably need to check out Tanahashi/Okada. Can you offer some dates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTLL Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 That's all fair enough Parv. Personally though, I find that when I go down the 'watching pimped stuff' road it can start to feel like homework. I think the homework model was rather heavily implied by the "nominate and offer best footage" format. I'm still iffy on voting myself (for whatever that's worth from a half-lurker unknown) because if I don't get enough due diligence done, it won't be a fair vote. And I'm not sure if I can be a fair judge of guys I've only recently seen for a small bit, even if I really like them, versus guys I've followed much deeper and longer. Not out of bias for my faves, it would just be an unbalanced level of analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 The main outcome of this exchange is that I probably need to check out Tanahashi/Okada. Can you offer some dates? Nah, I just used them as an example because I know some circles think their feud has been all-time best. Maybe someone like Shoe or Jimmy Redman could help with dates and stuff, I really didn't delve deep into their feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 The main outcome of this exchange is that I probably need to check out Tanahashi/Okada. Can you offer some dates? Feb 12, 2012 June 16, 2012 Jan 4, 2013 Apr 7, 2013 Aug 10, 2013 Oct 14, 2013 Jan 4, 2015 That's all of them in chronological order. If you only want to try a couple I'm happy to recommend some over others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 If you only watch the most pimped stuff from a wrestler, you are only seeing part of the story. If you are thinking of not putting Flair or Steamboat on your list, you don't need to watch the 1989 Trilogy. Either you haven't seen enough wrestling from the past to inform your opinions or they aren't and won't be your cup of tea and those matches aren't going to change anything. Same with the MIsawa-Kawada series or anything else. When we watched the Mid South stuff, Phil Schneider would moan how Dibiase and his glove was so boring and how it lowered Dibiase in his eyes. When I watched Dibiase week to week, I loved the glove, the arrogance, the matches, the whole package. When we watched New Japan, we saw so many bad Inoki and Tiger Mask matches,there is no way those guys would sniff my Top 100. However, if I only went by Inoki's top matches, he could find a place on my Top 100 Wrestlers With Really Great Matches list. On the other hand, William Regal probably has less high end matches than Inoki but his performance is so great in even sub-par matches that it makes me want to watch more Regal. The same can be said for El Dandy and Buddy Rose, in my mind. The matches don't always have to be great but a great performance by a wrestler is enough to elevate a guy regardless of the match rating. Perfect example is the Murdoch vs. Nightmare match where Murdoch was wrestling the match by himself basically with a little help from Eddie Gilbert on the outside. Nobody would call it a 5 star match but it was an awesome one man show by Murdoch. On the podcast, I said that nobody that isn't ingrained in my head is going to make my list. If I discover a guy tomorrow, he isn't going to make my Top 100. I want to know how I feel about the guy 2-3-4 years from now. I want to know how a guy holds up after the law of diminishing returns takes hold and when the honeymoon is over. If I still feel excited about a guy after the pimping period, he probably makes my list. I am still excited finding a new Murdoch match or Dandy match or Flair match or Lawler match. that's is why those guys shoot to the top of my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I am so done watching post 91 AJPW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Why don't you submit your list tonight then Will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Because I am still moving pieces. For example, I moved Dustin & Vader out of the Top 25 and put Rey and Terry Funk in. I may move Pat O'Connor up or Giant Baba down. No rush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Well I'll just go on record to say that I am completely against these anti-footage-watching arguments. Completely. To each their own I guess, but I will continue in the mode I have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I am not anti-footage. I have watched more footage than almost anybody. That is how I came to form my opinions. However, if you think you are going to make an informed opinion after watching 5 matches from a guy, that is just as misinformed. If somebody said, "Bro, you have to watch this wrestler we have never seen, Johnny Rocking Socks. He wrestled in Butte, Montana in the 70s and 80s and we have some of his footage." If I then go watch 5 kickass Johnny Rocking Socks matches, is that going to be enough for him to make my Top 100. Fuck no. It's going to mean JRS is going to miss my ballot this time and I need to find as much wrestling from Butte, Montana and Mr. Rocking Socks for the next list. If people only watched Warrior's matches with Rick Rude and Randy Savage and the Hogan Mania main event, people could make an argument he was a good wrestler. Fortunately, we have seen enough matches to know those are the exception, not the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Well I'll just go on record to say that I am completely against these anti-footage-watching arguments. Completely. To each their own I guess, but I will continue in the mode I have been. I'm not anti-footage, I'm more pro-explore whatever footage floats your boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 Nobody is anti-footage. I am anti 5 matches is enough to make a judgment theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'm with you on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 I just have no time. But I would like to participate. I just spent years watching one group of stuff instead of another. This is all for fun anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 What's the difference between Hansen/Colon and a lucha apuesta feud? Heck, what's the difference between Puerto Rico and lucha in general? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 What'd the difference between Hansen/Colon and a lucha apuesta feud? Heck, what's the difference between Puerto Rico and lucha in general? Don't always have to be different. With the right brawl they can be very similar. But Lucha can give the vibe of being a drunk cirque du soleil, whereas PR feels more like a drunk alley fight. Massive generalization? Yes, no question. Just the vibe that each gives off at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 You nailed it Winged Eagle. Lucha just feels like dancing to me, even the brawling comes off as being choregraphed to a level I get can't get on with. Colon has a few weird quirks in his work (like those flips he does), but in the main that stuff just came off like top notch brawling that could have been in a US or Japanese setting. PR also has this pressure cooker atmosphere that is unique in itself and I haven't really got that vibe from Mexico, although I do love the guys in uniform at ringside on the 80s footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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