2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame thread

[WrestlingPower]

Another idea, I was wondering if there could be a pre-vote or some vetting of candidates before they appear on the ballot. Is it strictly Dave's call who goes on & who doesn't or a small subcommittee? For example how do Kojima & Tenzan go on without warning when arguably comparable US teams from the same era like Hardys or Dudleys never get on? Assuming the region idea stays, is Dave having discussions with anyone about deciding not to include Invader, Hugo, Chicky in creating a true Caribbean region for example? The theory behind treating PR as an insignificant region creates an unintended bias against that territory. Listening to the latest VOW podcast it got me thinking about how guys like Sasaki that never drew other than Japan get in because Japan is "important" but Colon can't get in despite drawing stadium houses in the "unimportant" PR, meanwhile people are trying to cobble together candidacies for guys like DeNucci in a long-dead Australia region while ignoring his lack of success in his home country. Lots of inconsistent criteria.

[KrisZ]

People ask Dave to put guys on the ballot..that's how some get on there.

[JerryvonKramer]

If there was ever a job for Kelly, it's the Denucci HoF case!

[shakla]

Another idea, I was wondering if there could be a pre-vote or some vetting of candidates before they appear on the ballot. Is it strictly Dave's call who goes on & who doesn't or a small subcommittee? For example how do Kojima & Tenzan go on without warning when arguably comparable US teams from the same era like Hardys or Dudleys never get on? Assuming the region idea stays, is Dave having discussions with anyone about deciding not to include Invader, Hugo, Chicky in creating a true Caribbean region for example? The theory behind treating PR as an insignificant region creates an unintended bias against that territory. Listening to the latest VOW podcast it got me thinking about how guys like Sasaki that never drew other than Japan get in because Japan is "important" but Colon can't get in despite drawing stadium houses in the "unimportant" PR, meanwhile people are trying to cobble together candidacies for guys like DeNucci in a long-dead Australia region while ignoring his lack of success in his home country. Lots of inconsistent criteria.

 

Does Dave still do the "of the following, who is the best Hall of Fame candidate" polls? Always wondered if those factored into the ballot or not. Anyone ever saved the names of those?

 

Kinda along that line, I went through the WON and WWE Hall of Fame listings to see how much common ground they had. It was more than I thought. The listing is of WWE Hall of Famers who have 1) Not been inducted in the WON HoF or 2) Are not currently on the ballot. Pretty much in order of WWE induction year. Didn't list any celeb inductions. Are there any viable WON ballot candidates on here, especially in the "never included" list?

 

Never Included on ballot

• Arnold Skaaland
• James Dudley
• George Steele
• Ivan Putski
• Grand Wizard
• Baron Mikel Scicluna
• Johnny Rodz
• Valiant Brothers (Jimmy/Johnny)
• Big John Studd
• Greg Valentine
• Tito Santana
• Bob Orton Jr.
• Nikolai Volkoff
• Iron Sheik
• Sherri Martel
• Tony Atlas
• The Blackjacks
• Mr. Fuji
• The Wild Samoans
• Peter Maivia
• Mae Young
• Jerry Brisco (inducted as part of Brisco Brothers)
• Koko B. Ware
• The Von Erichs (minus Fritz, Kerry was on ballot previously)
• Wendi Richter
• Hacksaw Jim Duggan
• Sunny
• Paul Ellering (inducted with Road Warriors)
• Ron Simmons
• Yokozuna
• Tully Blanchard (inducted with Four Horsemen)
• J.J. Dillon (inducted with Four Horsemen)
• Trish Stratus
• Lita
• Paul Bearer

Fell off ballot

• Chief Jay Strongbow (fell off in 2012)
• Don Muraco (fell off in 1998 and 2005)
• Paul Orndorff (fell off in 1998 and 2007)
• Rocky Johnson (fell off in 2009)
• Kerry Von Erich (fell off in 1999 and 2007)
• Bob Armstrong (fell off in 2013)
• Barry Windham (fell off in 1998)
• Arn Anderson (fell off in 2006)
• Booker T (fell off in 2006)
• Jake Roberts (fell off in 1998)
• Scott Hall (fell off in 1998)

[efrim]

Can someone either re-state/make the case against Moolah or link me to a place where that's already been written? It was touched on the Modern US/Canada Voices of Wrestling but I would enjoy a through look at it.

 

My awareness of her career is pretty low and I'm only half familiar with the seedy elements of her success, so this is an area I would appreciate some WWE deprogramming.

[KrisZ]

One of the criteria for the HOF is positive influence will she had about as big of a negative influence as anyone...she basically made her troupe slaves and she got all their money.

[shakla]

BTW, here's an example of the HOF ballot polls Dave puts up, this is from 1/15/2012:

 

(original link: http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-top-stories/96-wwe/23797-sun-update-more-from-ufc-142-gina-carano-hall-of-fame-candidates-2-injuries-mania-vince)

 

--Which of these names most belongs on the Hall of Fame ballot?

Arn Anderson 49.3%

Brian Pillman 9.8%

Booker T 9.3%

Kevin Sullivan 7.0%

Jeff Jarrett 5.0%

Diamond Dallas Page 3.9%

Koji Kanemoto 3.6%

Jim Duggan 3.4%

Kamala 3.4%

Los Misioneros de la Muerte 2.1%

Los Brazos 1.8%

Pirata Morgan 1.5%

--Which of these men most belongs on the Hall of Fame ballot?

Rob Van Dam 25.0%

Junkyard Dog 17.8%

Big Show 11.9%

Bill Dundee 9.4%

Honky Tonk Man 8.5%

Jerry Brisco 7.3%

George Steele 6.0%

Nikita Koloff 5.6%

Austin Idol 3.8%

Ivan Putski 1.7%

Tony Atlas 1.5%

Jos LeDuc 1.5%

--Which of these men most belongs on the Hall of Fame ballot?

Magnum T.A. 40.2%

Art Barr 13.5%

Angelo Mosca 12.0%

Yoshihiro Takayama 11.8%

Satoshi Kojima 10.1%

Cibernetico 4.3%

Fuerza Guerrera 3.6%

Pierroth Jr. 1.5%

Jerry Estrada 1.3%

Latin Lover 0.9%

Kato Kung Lee 0.4%

La Fiera 0.4%

[kjh]

It's worth noting that The Brawl To End It All built around Wendi Richter vs. Fabulous Moolah only drew 15,000 fans at Madison Square Garden despite Hulk Hogan wrestling Greg Valentine on the undercard. I can't be 100% sure of this, but I think that would be the lowest MSG attendance in over 14 years.

 

There's no evidence that Moolah was ever a draw either at the box office or with TV ratings, she wasn't a good worker and she wasn't particularly famous, so the only argument for her induction is influence, and by the time she retired as a full time performer she left women's wrestling pretty much for dead. That's without getting into the seedy rumors about how she manipulated her talent.

 

Regarding Invader as a Hall Of Fame candidate, he'll never get put on the ballot because he murdered Bruiser Brody and even if he was put on he wouldn't get in for that very reason. Others like Hugo Savinovich and Chicky Starr should get a chance on the ballot sometime though.

[NintendoLogic]

What exactly does Moolah have going for her? Even disregarding all the seedy aspects of her career, she couldn't work, didn't draw, and set women's wrestling in America back decades during her time on top. She was good at playing politics, but that's not one of the selection criteria.

 

As for Invader, I recall Dave saying he'd get lynched if he ever put him on the ballot.

[DylanZero]

 

BTW, here's an example of the HOF ballot polls Dave puts up, this is from 1/15/2012:

 

(original link: http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-top-stories/96-wwe/23797-sun-update-more-from-ufc-142-gina-carano-hall-of-fame-candidates-2-injuries-mania-vince)

 

--Which of these names most belongs on the Hall of Fame ballot?

Arn Anderson 49.3%

Brian Pillman 9.8%

Booker T 9.3%

Kevin Sullivan 7.0%

Jeff Jarrett 5.0%

Diamond Dallas Page 3.9%

Koji Kanemoto 3.6%

Jim Duggan 3.4%

Kamala 3.4%

Los Misioneros de la Muerte 2.1%

Los Brazos 1.8%

Pirata Morgan 1.5%

 

When I see stuff like Booker, Sullivan, & Jarrett ahead of people like Kanemoto & Los Misioneros...on top of that RVD at the top of another one this post has been enough to ruin my day.

 

Pretty much gotta agree with everything said about Moolah. I feel like the only reason she's even on this ballot is because of THOSE kinda guys who got mesmerized by her being portrayed as a great legend on TV and maybe also because of holding a near meaningless title that she controlled for like 30 years.

 

If Benoit gets on I don't see much of an argument against Invader.

[W2BTD]

Keep in mind that those are front page polls.

 

When you consider how bad the message board is on that site, and those people pay to presumably read the newsletter, imagine how awful the grasp of history must be with the front page visitors who don't.

 

Essentially, those are polls of who is the most famous.

[W2BTD]

 

 

BTW, here's an example of the HOF ballot polls Dave puts up, this is from 1/15/2012:

 

(original link: http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-top-stories/96-wwe/23797-sun-update-more-from-ufc-142-gina-carano-hall-of-fame-candidates-2-injuries-mania-vince)

 

--Which of these names most belongs on the Hall of Fame ballot?

Arn Anderson 49.3%

Brian Pillman 9.8%

Booker T 9.3%

Kevin Sullivan 7.0%

Jeff Jarrett 5.0%

Diamond Dallas Page 3.9%

Koji Kanemoto 3.6%

Jim Duggan 3.4%

Kamala 3.4%

Los Misioneros de la Muerte 2.1%

Los Brazos 1.8%

Pirata Morgan 1.5%

 

When I see stuff like Booker, Sullivan, & Jarrett ahead of people like Kanemoto & Los Misioneros...on top of that RVD at the top of another one this post has been enough to ruin my day.

 

Pretty much gotta agree with everything said about Moolah. I feel like the only reason she's even on this ballot is because of THOSE kinda guys who got mesmerized by her being portrayed as a great legend on TV and maybe also because of holding a near meaningless title that she controlled for like 30 years.

 

If Benoit gets on I don't see much of an argument against Invader.

 

 

Benoit was on the ballot and voted in before his murders. And then there was a recall vote, and he was voted to stay in.

 

Had Benoit killed his family before he was ever on the ballot, I am almost positive he would have never appeared on it.

[efrim]

During this long stretch of time prior to the richter feud, what is moolah's status in the womens wrestling scene? Is it that there are other women outperforming her, or is it that woman's wrestling as a whole is an afterthought (at least for the purposes of HOF level drawing/influence)

[DylanZero]

 

 

 

BTW, here's an example of the HOF ballot polls Dave puts up, this is from 1/15/2012:

 

(original link: http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-top-stories/96-wwe/23797-sun-update-more-from-ufc-142-gina-carano-hall-of-fame-candidates-2-injuries-mania-vince)

 

--Which of these names most belongs on the Hall of Fame ballot?

Arn Anderson 49.3%

Brian Pillman 9.8%

Booker T 9.3%

Kevin Sullivan 7.0%

Jeff Jarrett 5.0%

Diamond Dallas Page 3.9%

Koji Kanemoto 3.6%

Jim Duggan 3.4%

Kamala 3.4%

Los Misioneros de la Muerte 2.1%

Los Brazos 1.8%

Pirata Morgan 1.5%

 

When I see stuff like Booker, Sullivan, & Jarrett ahead of people like Kanemoto & Los Misioneros...on top of that RVD at the top of another one this post has been enough to ruin my day.

 

Pretty much gotta agree with everything said about Moolah. I feel like the only reason she's even on this ballot is because of THOSE kinda guys who got mesmerized by her being portrayed as a great legend on TV and maybe also because of holding a near meaningless title that she controlled for like 30 years.

 

If Benoit gets on I don't see much of an argument against Invader.

 

 

Benoit was on the ballot and voted in before his murders. And then there was a recall vote, and he was voted to stay in.

 

Had Benoit killed his family before he was ever on the ballot, I am almost positive he would have never appeared on it.

 

 

*in and my point remains the same. Since he's in I don't see why Invader shouldn't be at all.

[shakla]

Also re:Moolah, hasn't Dave said at various times that Moolah was going to be put in via fiat in 1996, then someone asked him why and he couldn't think of any solid reason?

[cheapshot]

Also re:Moolah, hasn't Dave said at various times that Moolah was going to be put in via fiat in 1996, then someone asked him why and he couldn't think of any solid reason?

 

That's the story I heard too, and I am glad he reconsidered as she is definitely a perception greater than reality candidate in my eyes.

[NintendoLogic]

During this long stretch of time prior to the richter feud, what is moolah's status in the womens wrestling scene? Is it that there are other women outperforming her, or is it that woman's wrestling as a whole is an afterthought (at least for the purposes of HOF level drawing/influence)

 

Pretty much all women's wrestling was booked through Moolah's office, and all the women were Moolah trainees who worked the same hair-mare/catfight style. Women's wrestling in America has always had a seedy side, but women like Mildred Burke were legit draws and main eventers. Under Moolah, it became a sideshow on par with midget wrestling.

[JerryvonKramer]

As far as I know Moolah had a really bad impact on Penny Banner's career who was a big star in the 1950s as AWA Women's Champ (famously, she even dated Elvis).

 

When she married Johnny Weaver, who was a homesteader in Mid-Atlantic, naturally she had to try to relocate to the Carolinas, but Moolah had Mid-Atlantic on lockdown and limited her dates, stopped her being billed as women's champ, forced her to work babyface, and effectively put her into semi-retirement when she should have been at her peak as a draw -- and Banner was legit a much bigger star than Moolah ever was.

 

Generally just a nasty person in the business, who did more harm than good.

[babylonianfrost]

 

 

 

Benoit was on the ballot and voted in before his murders. And then there was a recall vote, and he was voted to stay in.

 

Had Benoit killed his family before he was ever on the ballot, I am almost positive he would have never appeared on it.

 

 

*in and my point remains the same. Since he's in I don't see why Invader shouldn't be at all.

I haven't looked in some time, but there's an asterisk next to him with a brief explanation of the circumstances, isn't there?

 

I was generally against voting him out not out of some sort of "loyalty to workrate" or any of that crap, but because he was voted in and the feeling that voters were being asked to essentially change history (perhaps not the best wording admittedly, but I believe it's close enough) left a bad taste in my mouth. I admit that I felt the same way when confronted with Titan's campaign to edit him out of any archival footage (though I don't believe they still do that). He was voted in prior to his reprehensible acts. Should he be held as any sort of a standard bearer for the product? God, no, but there's at least a significant difference to me for his extant placement in the HoF and putting an already-known murderer on the ballot. Benoit wouldn't go within sniffing distance of the ballot today and, as noted earlier, putting Gonzales on the ballot would open up a can of worms with the wrestler/historian/journalist voters that I can't imagine that Dave wants to deal with (especially given that he was fairly tight/as tight as anyone was going to be with Brody as well, wasn't he?)

 

On the other hand, Snuka is on the ballot and - as the VoW podcast reminded me - Mondt went in by fiat, so...yeah, hypocrisy.

[efrim]

 

During this long stretch of time prior to the richter feud, what is moolah's status in the womens wrestling scene? Is it that there are other women outperforming her, or is it that woman's wrestling as a whole is an afterthought (at least for the purposes of HOF level drawing/influence)

 

Pretty much all women's wrestling was booked through Moolah's office, and all the women were Moolah trainees who worked the same hair-mare/catfight style. Women's wrestling in America has always had a seedy side, but women like Mildred Burke were legit draws and main eventers. Under Moolah, it became a sideshow on par with midget wrestling.

 

 

 

As far as I know Moolah had a really bad impact on Penny Banner's career who was a big star in the 1950s as AWA Women's Champ (famously, she even dated Elvis).

 

When she married Johnny Weaver, who was a homesteader in Mid-Atlantic, naturally she had to try to relocate to the Carolinas, but Moolah had Mid-Atlantic on lockdown and limited her dates, stopped her being billed as women's champ, forced her to work babyface, and effectively put her into semi-retirement when she should have been at her peak as a draw -- and Banner was legit a much bigger star than Moolah ever was.

 

Generally just a nasty person in the business, who did more harm than good.

 

Very interesting insights. Knew I could count on the board to get more context here.

[Dylan Waco]

Looking at early ballots it seems obvious Lesnar is going on which I consider a real shame. It's not Angle level, but the case is based on UFC and the hopes people have vested in him.

[FedEx227]

I advocated for Brock being a contender and a definite HOFer but not now. He can wait, especially since he has time to build his resume. I'd honestly wait until SummerSlam numbers fully come out and we have an idea about Network subscriptions. If he's driving people to the Network, that's another feather in his cap.

 

And again, when I did my Gordy list on Lesnar I used dave's only rationale as far as the inclusion of MMA even though I 100% disagree.

[cheapshot]

I advocated for Brock being a contender and a definite HOFer but not now. He can wait, especially since he has time to build his resume. I'd honestly wait until SummerSlam numbers fully come out and we have an idea about Network subscriptions. If he's driving people to the Network, that's another feather in his cap.

 

And again, when I did my Gordy list on Lesnar I used dave's only rationale as far as the inclusion of MMA even though I 100% disagree.

 

I am interested to know why you so strongly disagree with Dave on it.

[KrisZ]

Lesnar's year this year put him in more than anything I think and I think like I said on Twitter he is the favorite to win Wrestler of the Year

[FedEx227]

 

I advocated for Brock being a contender and a definite HOFer but not now. He can wait, especially since he has time to build his resume. I'd honestly wait until SummerSlam numbers fully come out and we have an idea about Network subscriptions. If he's driving people to the Network, that's another feather in his cap.

 

And again, when I did my Gordy list on Lesnar I used dave's only rationale as far as the inclusion of MMA even though I 100% disagree.

 

I am interested to know why you so strongly disagree with Dave on it.

 

 

I guess I don't disagree with MMA being apart of the equation in Japan but I do disagree with his continued resistence to giving any sort of direction to voters. In that Gordy List article I take a quote from last year's Observer where he basically says "Should you consider MMA, well, maybe not but voters did for Sakuraba, so I guess you should, but Sakuraba and MMA in Japan is a lot different so maybe you shouldn't, but I mean, maybe you should, I don't know" It answers nothing and just adds more confusion. It's your HoF dave, does MMA count or not? Does only Japanese MMA count but not American? I don't think it's worth getting into detailed discussions about the differences between Japan/USA MMA, just say yes or no and we can all move on.

 

I suspect after this year Lesnar will have a better pure wrestling resume but until dave says one way or another there's going to continue to be questions about guys like Lesnar and how to treat MMA especially in the context of bringing pro wrestling fans with you to other mediums.