Kenta Kobashi

[jdw]

I'm not sure it was Baba deciding to make Kobashi the clear #2.

 

My recollection from what I was told from someone over there at the time was that business was instantly bad. Then business didn't pick up when Kobashi got the belt, hence Misawa rushing back, less at the insistence of Baba but more in terms of feeling responsibility as the Ace and as part of management to get back. Business was bad enough that Baba put the belts back on Misawa even though Misawa was very clear that he didn't want them back yet - clear in the sense of reading between the lines of Misawa saying when he came back that he wouldn't be challenging for the belt anytime soon... only for Baba to put him in the TC match the next series, and have him win the title.

 

I've usually pointed to that when people start talking about Selfish Bookersawa, or when people re-write history after not haven written about the history at the time either because they weren't asking, or didn't grasp what was being said.

 

But it's as applicable to apply to there being any master plan with Kobashi. The company in 1998 was more than a bit messy.

 

Anyway...

 

Re-reading the point I made in the quoted text, I should try to be as clear as possible.

 

From a structural standpoint of where they ranked in the promotion at the time, Kobashi wasn't really an underdog in that match. Fairly even, with management favoring Kobashi as a "favored son" while Kawada was the prodigal son who spent time in the doghouse.

 

From a storyline standpoint, it was a bit of a mess. Misawa had run the table by the Dome show and was ripe to drop it. Yet they really hadn't done much of anything to build up Kawada other than to throw him into the match. Misawa won the Carny, Kawada didn't even get to the Final of it, and dropped a singles match to Kobashi in it.

 

From an expectations stand point, given All Japan's booking of the Triple Crown over the years, it "was a lock" that Kawada would retain on his first title defense in the match up, especially coming off winning it at the biggest All Japan card ever. Add in Kobashi's Carny win over Kawada, "payback" was all over it.

 

Go figure.

 

Which is why I probed around on "why" at the time.

[fxnj]

Except Kobashi wrestled the 1998 Kawada TC match with a bad leg, whilst Kawada looked in the best shape of his career, both from a physique standpoint and with him having beaten Misawa at the dome a month prior. So I don't see why it's such a mark against Kobashi that he thought working as the underdog was the best way to approach the match.

[jdw]

I've long said that it's best not to put too much thought into what Kobashi was thinking in a grand scale when working. He never was a deep thinker as a worker. He was more a "I've Got Shit To Do" worker. Which of course made for matches that had shit that fans popped for.

[JazeUSA]

He is my current #2 on my ballot only behind Flair atm, he is simply phenomenal, I have every match he has on tape from his debut thru 98, great, great stuff

[pol]

That's one of the problems with Kobashi's work in 1997 and 1998: he was still working like it was 1993 and he was an underdog, even "crying" when Jun kicked out of the moonsault.

 

This was so jarring to me when watching the 90s stuff through. Especially as All Japan always seemed to me like a promotion that put a lot of stock in how the champion should carry themselves. He did eventually grow into the role, but it took a while.

[Loss]

The counterpoint to that would be that I'm not sure Kobashi should have started working like Misawa or Jumbo. I'm curious -- when you have a wrestler whose character is based on such a melodramatic outward expression of emotion, how do you reconcile that with moving up the cards? How does a wrestler like that mature without abandoning who they are or what made them special in the first place? Are there examples of it happening successfully? Otani couldn't do it either, and I'm not sure Steamboat's selling noticeably changed when he won the title. In fact, I think Steamboat is an ideal comparison because Flair was still The Man even when Steamboat was The Champ. And I'm not sure how Kobashi's melodrama is more of a problem than Steamboat's melodrama.

 

I also don't think it's fair to expect Kobashi to start working like The Man the moment he's champ. Misawa was still The Man, and Kobashi didn't even beat him when it mattered until 2003. So Misawa should have still been the one working that ideal. It matched the booking.

 

Was he still crying in his 2003-2005 run as GHC champion? That was the first time he was ever pushed as the number one guy in the company. If he was doing it then, then sure, that's a problem.

[Childs]

I've come around to thinking Kobashi takes too much shit for this. He was an emotional wrestler and the fans loved him for it. Even as he grew up, he was never going to be Misawa. And there was something charming about his transitional character of '97-'98, when he'd alternate between focused, commanding work and outbursts of "young Kobashi" emoting. Not everyone matures at the same rate, and his performances were still brilliant. I'd stack Kobashi's 1998 against any year from any wrestler in the '90s.

 

For me, one of the unexpected byproducts of watching the yearbooks and reviewing the 2000s for Ditch's poll was a renewed appreciation for Kobashi. I feel a backlash against the backlash directed at him. If we had done GWE two years ago, he might have fallen out of my top 20. Now, I could easily stick him in the top 5.

 

EDIT: Damn, Loss beat me to my point.

[WingedEagle]

Was he still crying in his 2003-2005 run as GHC champion? That was the first time he was ever pushed as the number one guy in the company. If he was doing it then, then sure, that's a problem.

 

No, he really transformed his emotion at this stage. He wasn't stoic Misawa in any sense, but one could argue that he carried himself in a fashion closer to Misawa than young, emotional Kobashi (who I admittedly loved at every outing), even if it was more a blend.

[Benbeeach]

I think GHC Champion Kobashi is almost as perfect an ace champion representation as I can remember seeing in wrestling. (Although Misawa is right there) Tons of vulnerability with enough steadfast assuredness you'd want out of the guy representing the best of the company (and it felt de facto Japan) at the time. He sold big, emoted big, had the giant put 'em away offense (so the anti steamboat in this sense). The "he annoyed me and was too far gone by the the time NOAH rolled around" always struck me as odd. His matches had tons of variety by then and weren't all mindless head drops and overkill. Quite the opposite a lot of the time. Kobashi was an excellent champion ace, who then transitioned into a really good elder ass kicker. Cancer probably robbed of us of the more grumpy miaswa era kobashi. Shame he couldn't have given that rub to a wrestler better than Rikio

Kobashi's career and character arc feel as complete as any wrestler's. Maybe his middle, late 90's champion run seems a tad shaky (granted most workers shaky runs aren't littered with anywhere near as many good matches) but as others have argued, he wasn't the man yet. How else is a character in transition supposed to act. Kobashi getting points off for not being Misawa or Kawada sounds unfair. He wasn't supposed to be, he was Kobashi, and a damn good Kobashi at that. Taue was always Taue and no one ever faults him for it. Akiyama probably would have been better served being Akiyama a lot earlier on than he was

[jdw]

 

I also don't think it's fair to expect Kobashi to start working like The Man the moment he's champ. Misawa was still The Man, and Kobashi didn't even beat him when it mattered until 2003. So Misawa should have still been the one working that ideal. It matched the booking.

 

No one was calling for Kobashi to start working like The Man after winning the TC for the first time in 7/96.

 

Kawada didn't start working like The Man after winning it in 10/94. Taue didn't start working like The Man after winning it in 5/96. Misawa didn't actually work like the Man after lifting it from Hansen in 8/92.

 

What they did show, over a number of years, was interesting character growth. Kawada did when moving opposite of Misawa in 5/93. Taue did when picking up his game in 3/95, and against after winning the TC from Misawa. Misawa evolved over a roughly one year stretch, where by mid-1993 he was a stronger character.

 

Heck, even Jun show interesting growth in 1996 when starting to team with Misawa, and in 1998 when his singles push got stronger. I might not be a massive fan of his work, but his character had grown up.

 

Misawa crying after Jun kicked out of a moonsault, after people had been kicking out of his moonsault for years, is Kobashi still working like an underdog babyface... even against somone who was the massive underdog in the match.

 

People like me at the time weren't calling for him to work like he was Misawa. We were calling for him to put away the crying type of stuff, and realize by 1997 (and into 1998) that he was at a different stage than he had been earlier in his career.

[jdw]

I've come around to thinking Kobashi takes too much shit for this. He was an emotional wrestler and the fans loved him for it. Even as he grew up, he was never going to be Misawa. And there was something charming about his transitional character of '97-'98, when he'd alternate between focused, commanding work and outbursts of "young Kobashi" emoting. Not everyone matures at the same rate, and his performances were still brilliant. I'd stack Kobashi's 1998 against any year from any wrestler in the '90s.

 

I'd love to see you expand on Kobashi's 1998 campaign in the Supplemental Viewing section of the 1998 Yearbook if it's high end of a year.

 

The Yearbooks look to have just 8 complete matches, and a few other edited one. There's a heck of a lot of his work that didn't make the yearbooks, including everything from the Tag League except for the Final, all of his Carny series except for the Jun match, the entire first two series of the year (including a Tag Title change), the entire Summer Action Series except for the Jun match, the editing of the Dome match, etc.

 

Kobashi 1998 available matches

01/02/98 Tomorrow League: Inoue/Kawada vs. Kobashi/Kanemaru 1601 complete

01/03/98 Akiyama/Ace/Kobashi vs. Skull Von Krush/Albright/Williams 1427 complete

01/10/98 Mossman/Ace/Kobashi vs. Hawkfield/Albright/Williams 1717 complete

01/23/98 Mossman/Misawa/Baba vs. Fuchi/Kobashi/Kawada 2927 complete

01/25/98 World Tag Title: Ace/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 3206 complete

01/26/98 Johnny Ace/Kobashi vs. Johnny Smith/Wolf Hawkfield 1413 of 1740 shown

02/14/98 Mossman/Akiyama/Misawa vs. Smith/Ace/Kobashi 2738 complete

02/15/98 Kobashi/Ace vs. Williams/Hawkfield 1843 complete

02/27/98 Kobashi/Ace/Smith vs. Misawa/Akiyama/Mossman 2129 complete

02/28/98 Akiyama/Kobashi vs. Kakihara/Takayama 1356 complete

03/21/98 Champion Carnival: Kobashi vs. Ace 3000 complete

03/22/98 Champion Carnival: Kobashi vs. Hawkfield 909 complete

03/26/98 Shiga/Mossman/Misawa vs. Kanemaru/Ace/Kobashi 1817 complete

03/29/98 Champion Carnival: Kobashi vs. Omori 1242 complete

04/11/98 Champion Carnival: Kobashi vs. Akiyama 3000 complete

04/12/98 Champion Carnival: Kobashi vs. Izumida 1229 complete

04/18/98 Kobashi/Takayama/Kakihara vs. Albright/Hawkfield/Williams 1420 complete

05/01/98 Kobashi/Ace vs. Hansen/Vader (22:12)

05/23/98 Kawada/Taue/Kikuchi vs. Ace/Kobashi/Asako 2709 complete

05/31/98 Shiga/Taue/Kawada vs. Asako/Ace/Kobashi 2154 complete

06/05/98 World Tag Title: Kawada/Taue vs. Kobashi/Ace 3026 complete

06/12/98 Triple Crown: Kawada vs. Kobashi 3349 complete

07/04/98 Mossman/Honda vs. Kobashi/Shiga 1635 complete

07/05/98 Kobashi vs. Smith 1423 complete

07/15/98 Kenta Kobashi vs. Masahito Kakihara (9:50)

07/18/98 Albright/Takayama/Kakihara vs. Kobashi/Ace/Hase 1928 complete

07/19/98 Akiyama/Hase vs. Kobashi/Mossman 2153 complete

07/24/98 Triple Crown: Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama (32:50)

08/22/98 Misawa/Akiyama/Asako vs. Ace/Smith/Kobashi 2036 complete

08/23/98 Taue/Honda vs. Kobashi/Ace 1402 complete

08/29/98 Kawada/Taue vs. Kobashi/Mossman (18:02)

09/11/98 Triple Crown: Kobashi vs. Taue 2539 complete

10/03/98 Hawkfield/Smith/Ace vs. Kobashi/Shiga/Akiyama 2100 complete

10/04/98 Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Albright/Takayama/Kakihara 1426 complete

10/11/98 World Tag Title: Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue (29:51)

10/24/98 Kobashi/Shinzaki vs. Misawa/Omori 1907 complete

10/31/98 Triple Crown: Misawa vs. Kobashi 4329 complete

11/15/98 Tag League: Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Headhunters 1150 complete

11/21/98 Tag League: Hansen/Vader vs. Kobashi/Akiyama 1449 complete

11/23/98 Mossman/Gunn/Ace vs. Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga 1704 complete

11/30/98 Tag League: Misawa/Ogawa vs. Kobashi/Akiyama 630 of 3000 shown

12/02/98 Tag League: Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue 2140 complete

12/04/98 Tag League: Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Ace/Gunn 2004 complete

12/05/98 Tag League: Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Vader/Hansen (Final) 1903 complete

 

Yearbook - Complete

Yearbook - Edit

 

I might be missing some there as I probably don't have have all the commercial release... maybe.

 

Lot of stuff there. 1998 got tough to cut with all the WWF and WCW stuff, etc. Maybe there are a lot of hidden gems in the 36 matches that didn't air complete.

[Childs]

Honestly, I tossed off the statement based on the high-end stuff that made the yearbook. All four of Kobashi's Triple Crown matches were great (I know you're not high on them but just for context, Loss had all four in his top 15 for the year, with the Carny match against Akiyama in his top 20, and Chad had all four TC matches in his top 20). The 6/5/98 and 10/11/98 tag title matches and the tag league final all struck me as solidly excellent (again, all in Loss' top 40).

 

I'd have to hunt down some of the other stuff to make a case for the depth of his year, and I'm not sure I want to do that But he had an exceptional 1998 when judged by high-end matches.

[jdw]

1993 is the cliche year, but also an easy one to grab Loss' snowflakes from:

 

Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 06/12/98) ****3/4
Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama (AJPW 07/24/98) ****3/4
Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/31/98) ****3/4
Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama (AJPW Championship Carnival 04/11/98) ****1/4
Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (AJPW 09/11/98) ****1/4
Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Kenta Kobashi & Johnny Ace (AJPW 06/05/98) ****
Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Kenta Kobashi & Johnny Ace (AJPW 06/05/98) ****
Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 10/11/98) ****

 

 

Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 07/29/93) *****
Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue (AJPW Real World Tag League 12/03/93) *****
Misawa & Kobashi vs Kawada & Taue (AJPW 06/01/93) ****1/2
Steve Williams vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 08/31/93) ****1/2
Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 10/23/93) ****1/2
Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Akiyama & Ogawa (AJPW 01/24/93) ****1/4
Misawa & Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Kawada & Taue & Ogawa (AJPW 06/03/93) ****1/4
Misawa & Kobashi & Akiyama vs Kawada & Taue & Ogawa (AJPW 07/02/93) ****1/4
Misawa & Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Kawada & Taue & Fuchi (AJPW 10/02/93) ****1/4
Misawa & Kobashi vs Hansen & Baba (AJPW 11/30/93) ****1/4
Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 04/16/93) ****
Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 04/14/93) ****
Kenta Kobashi vs Terry Gordy (AJPW 05/29/93) ****
Furnas & Kroffat vs Kobashi & Asako (AJPW 08/20/93) ****
Misawa & Kobashi vs Williams & Boss Man (AJPW 11/24/93) ****

 

He had another trio that were in the ***1/4 - ***1/2 range.

 

A lot from each year ended up on the cutting room floor.

 

I can't say if a random throw away like Kobashi vs Bossman in 1993 is better than a random throwaway like Kobashi vs. Smith in 1998. My recollection is that the Kobashi-Smith was kind of just there, especially considering how long they'd worked together. The Bossman match is one that I've pointed to often as a fun little match that reflects well on both, and is an easy lock for a Best of Bossman set as one of his good singles matches. Is it "good" on a 1993 All Japan scale meaning *** or so? I don't know. I think it was watchable and good the last time I watched it, and I'm pretty clearly a jaded All Japan Fan who is even critical of old favorites like 06/12/98.

 

On the other hand, the yearbook cut these two out:

 

01/25/98 World Tag Title: Ace/Kobashi vs. Kawada/Taue 3206 complete

12/02/98 Tag League: Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue 2140 complete

 

So...

 

I can only say my recollection at the time. When I got to the end of 1993, while I might have thought Kawada was the best worker in the world coming off the Final Match of the Year, I also thought that Kobashi put up the best year I'd ever seen. I didn't get the same vibe in 1998, and don't even think I advocated him for being the best worker in the world. I wasn't nearly as jaded of All Japan style or even Kobashi as I'd become in 1999, but things were bothering me.

[fxnj]

Had no idea that Kobashi/Shinzaki vs Misawa/Omori match is available in full. All I've seen anywhere is 4 minutes of clips.

[jdw]

Dan out out a 70+ disc set of 1998 All Japan in 2012 with everything available from NTV’s original network broadcast, NTV’s satellite channel, Samurai TV and bonus discs covering the Dome and other commercial releases. The vast majority of the matches on NTV Satellite & Samurai were complete. You'd get complete versions of a lot of the stuff originally on NTV on the Satellite or Samurai, though very little overlap between Satellite and Samurai as they taped different cards for the most part.

 

The concept is pretty great. The trouble is that the routine tapings in the 1997 and beyond range were "less good" in terms of quality than the stuff in the 1991-94 range. One really wishes *that* stuff got the same deal. Or, at the very least, all those JIP matches from that time period were released in full in a comprehensive Classics concept like New Japan did for large chunks of their early-to-mid 90s television material.

 

Anyway... see Dan. He was just talking to me about possibly doing sets for 1999 & 2000 "to the split". So interest in the 1996 (which is where all that good 1996 Tag League stuff is from) & 1997 & 1998 super tv sets would probably help inspire him that there's still interest out there for this stuff.

[JerryvonKramer]

Assuming that Kobashi will equal Misawa in terms of base, great matches and variety (10 for all), I think he actually has every chance of finishing higher than him on my list, because he undoubtedly has better intangibles and a comparably long peak period.

[Childs]

I have no problem with anyone ranking Kobashi above Misawa. I might do so myself. But how did he have better intangibles when Misawa was the unquestioned ace and top draw of the same hot promotion in which Kobashi was a star?

[JerryvonKramer]

One might ask the same question about Terry Funk in 1972 when Dory Funk Jr was undoubtedly the NWA champion and top star.

 

More extreme example, but you get the point.

 

Kobashi is just so much more expressive with his facials. He's like a living cartoon. I think his character work is bigger and louder than Misawa's. I have Misawa as a 6, I think Kobashi might be an 8.

 

I also think from about 92-97 he was just as over as Misawa was. At least based on crowd reactions and chants etc.

[El McKell]

I have no problem with anyone ranking Kobashi above Misawa. I might do so myself. But how did he have better intangibles when Misawa was the unquestioned ace and top draw of the same hot promotion in which Kobashi was a star?

 

​But can't you say the exact same thing with the roles reversed for 03-05 NOAH

[JerryvonKramer]

The word missing from my post above is emotion.

 

Yes, we all know about Japanese stoicism and Misawa as the embodiment of that, but Kobashi I'd argue is so emotional as a performer that he actually transcends cultural barriers -- in a way Misawa doesn't.

[Childs]

 

I have no problem with anyone ranking Kobashi above Misawa. I might do so myself. But how did he have better intangibles when Misawa was the unquestioned ace and top draw of the same hot promotion in which Kobashi was a star?

​But can't you say the exact same thing with the roles reversed for 03-05 NOAH

 

 

Sure, I would just say that Misawa's run on top was longer. Kobashi brought incredible charisma, no doubt. But I'd argue Misawa brought as much, just of a different and subtler sort. In fact, he'd be the definition of a great intangible wrestler for me, because he was so effective at projecting himself as ace without a lot of obvious emoting.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

I have no problem with anyone ranking Kobashi above Misawa. I might do so myself. But how did he have better intangibles when Misawa was the unquestioned ace and top draw of the same hot promotion in which Kobashi was a star?

​But can't you say the exact same thing with the roles reversed for 03-05 NOAH

 

 

Sure, I would just say that Misawa's run on top was longer. Kobashi brought incredible charisma, no doubt. But I'd argue Misawa brought as much, just of a different and subtler sort. In fact, he'd be the definition of a great intangible wrestler for me, because he was so effective at projecting himself as ace without a lot of obvious emoting.

 

 

Misawa's run was certainly longer, but I think there's an argument that Kobashi's is more impressive because he didn't have anything approaching prime Kawada, Kobashi & Taue supporting him. It was essentially a one man show with a rotating cast of dance partners as opposed to a HOF ensemble backing him up. But still not sure its enough for me to put it ahead of Misawa's run.

[fxnj]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no problem with anyone ranking Kobashi above Misawa. I might do so myself. But how did he have better intangibles when Misawa was the unquestioned ace and top draw of the same hot promotion in which Kobashi was a star?

​But can't you say the exact same thing with the roles reversed for 03-05 NOAH

Sure, I would just say that Misawa's run on top was longer. Kobashi brought incredible charisma, no doubt. But I'd argue Misawa brought as much, just of a different and subtler sort. In fact, he'd be the definition of a great intangible wrestler for me, because he was so effective at projecting himself as ace without a lot of obvious emoting.

Misawa's run was certainly longer, but I think there's an argument that Kobashi's is more impressive because he didn't have anything approaching prime Kawada, Kobashi & Taue supporting him. It was essentially a one man show with a rotating cast of dance partners as opposed to a HOF ensemble backing him up. But still not sure its enough for me to put it ahead of Misawa's run.

I'd say that's a pretty big point against Misawa. He had great chemistry with Jumbo and those guys you listed, but he was pretty rarely the type to step in with some random guy and pull out the best match of their career like Kobashi and Kawada would.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd just point out that I had Misawa capping out at 12 opponents for "variety" originally, trying to represent this knock against him, and it was quickly argued by a number of people that he can easily make 20 "memorable opponents" and max out for the variety score.

 

Which, if you consider that so much of his peak years are locked up with facing the same small pocket of guys over and over again, is actually pretty impressive.

[ohtani's jacket]

Do intangibles take into account the claims of over-emoting and too much crying, a lack of character development, or the way he'd get the yips any time a mic was placed in his face? Because if they factor in the flip-side to traditional Japanese stoicism then they should weigh in some of Kobashi's negatives too.

 

Regarding Kobashi's appeal, Japanese fight pundits have traditionally favoured the underdog, the guy who puts up a fight despite being hopelessly out matched, or the guy who shows good technique regardless of being outclassed, and I think that had a lot to do with Kobashi's popularity as a young man.

Of course, it's easier for us to relate to those performances than the restraint other performers show, but I think rather than some kind of universal appeal, or intrinsic "likeability," it's something that we as a foreign audience are drawn to when trying to decipher and decode a text we don't fully understand. I don't think it's a surprise that the word charisma comes up so often in conversations about foreign workers as that's something that people cling to when they're trying to make sense of what they're watching. With Kobashi, I think he had as much direct appeal to his audience as Misawa and wasn't simply a type of charismatic performer who could get over anywhere.