Hiroshi Hase

[Parties]

Rewatched the Muta Scale and Akiyama matches for the first time in years. What an awesome bastard this guy was, and his subsequent life afterwards is unreal to consider. Can you imagine a politico-wrestling scenario wherein like, John Kerry was biting and stabbing a few pints of blood out of Bret Hart's forehead circa '92? The Muta match was a good reminder of how great Muta was during that 3-4 year peak from the NWA run onward. He's sort of the ultimate test of what I was saying in the Kengo Kimura thread about not holding late-career garbage against a guy with great highlights. 2000s Mutoh is one of the most boring, haphazard, worthless guys in the business, but if I'm thinking optimistically then I have to remember the good times.

 

The Akiyama match is absolutely great and I barely remembered a moment of it. Hase's amateur-style footwork in this was fantastic. The chop exchanges in this felt very Flair-Steamboat, with Hase at times showing shades of both guys. And Cesaro via the Giant Swing. Really liked Akiyama trying to viciously dropkick Hase in the knee several times to set up the figure-four.

 

If you need a favorable, positive instance of "workrate", look at what Hase is doing while stuck in Akiyama's leglock. Selling vigorously, trying to literally tear Akiyama's kneepad in half to release tension from the hold, screaming at the ref, rotating at all angles in search of an escape. Then once he does get out, he hits a Northern Lights suplex, but can't hold the bridge because his knee quits on him. Just an incredible performance.

[Childs]

 

The Muta match was a good reminder of how great Muta was during that 3-4 year peak from the NWA run onward. He's sort of the ultimate test of what I was saying in the Kengo Kimura thread about not holding late-career garbage against a guy with great highlights. 2000s Mutoh is one of the most boring, haphazard, worthless guys in the business, but if I'm thinking optimistically then I have to remember the good times.

 

The problem is it wasn't just 2000s Mutoh. Even for a lot of what should have been his peak, he mixed a lot of lazy garbage with the cookies.

[Jetlag]

I'm a little puzzled by Hase getting praised as a superworker. He's clearly the most talented NJ heavy after Hashimoto, but Hash will be in my Top 10-20, while Hase right now isn't a lock for the list at all. He has strong positives: quality amateur style matwork, great at bomb throwing, and knows how to create drama. Problems for him are the chunks missing from his career due to him being exiled from NJ and being a part timer later on. In the 2000s he is far overshadowed by other guys even in post-split All Japan. What is most puzzling about him is that he clearly understands wrestling very well as evidenced in his selling and expressiveness, but also sometimes mixes these Kurt Angle-ish tendencies into matches (throwing a dozen Uranages in a row, awkward pacing etc). I can only watch so many matches that build from indian deathlocks to Uranages and nearfalls before it gets old. His AJPW work, very good Akiyama match aside, was very underwhelming. His match vs. Kobashi wouldn't even make my Top 30 for 1997 and him vs. Misawa in 2000 is kind of painful. His best match for me is against Hashimoto and the gap between that match and the rest of his work is nearly as big as the gap between him and Hash.

[JerryvonKramer]

It is possible Hash had a better career than Hase in terms of output. Although, from what I've seen so far, watching their greatest hits, they seem comparable. A lot of NJ stuff seems to cap out around the ****1/2 range to me, and that has been true of both Hase and Hash, with one or two exceptions.

 

I think Hase, however, is just more fully rounded as a worker than Hashimoto, who seems much more two dimensional to me. Those two dimensions being essentially drawn out matwork or kicks to the head. Hase feels much more like a classic US worker. Someone like Barry Windham or Arn or Ted or Chris Jericho, who can bump, sell, stooge if necessary, play the hero if necessary, throw bombs, take it to the mat, and focus on limbwork (which he does as good as anyone I've seen, apart from Arn) -- he also has bags of natural charisma, rare in a Japanese worker. I value those skills a lot. I don't think Hash is a "super worker" in that same way. He is more someone who has specific qualities or skills he can do better than anyone else.

 

So I see the comparison as the specialist vs. the generalist.

 

And I consistently value generalists as much as I value the specialists. I don't see Hash as "more talented" than Hase, but it's also true that I don't see Stan Hansen as "more talented" than Barry Windham, even though Hansen will finish a lot higher.

 

By that token, I don't know for sure that Hase will finish above Hash for my list, because the output / volume gulf might swing things for Hash, but I suspect that he might. In my mind, it will be close though. And I don't really see either guy as a top 10-20 contender.

[Jetlag]

I'm not really seeing that bit about Hash being a specialist. The guy has a huge variety of great matches under his belt, including several matches built around all the things you mention about Hase (well, except maybe for bumping and stooging, but doing something like that simply didn't fit his role). Including matches against other heavyweights, juniorweights, martial artists, guys from other promotions, jobbers, US style workers, etc. And he does those things as good as anyone I've seen. I could see it if you said Hase is a superworker due to being closer to an US guy, but that raises the question can only US style guys (or guys who are close to it) be superworkers?

[JerryvonKramer]

Japan has produced many other "superworkers" who are generalists like that. Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada are all probably 9/10s or 10/10s in terms of their basic skills. Fujinami is another one. I'd probably argue Jushin Liger is one too.

 

Hash just isn't in that mould in my view.

 

Feel free to disagree, though, opinions are what the whole deal is about.

 

Hash can face anyone, but he always does so on his own terms. Other specialists -- Stan Hansen, Ricky Morton, Jerry Lawler, Bob Backlund -- also can face anyone but always on their own terms. I guess there could be a wider discussion around whether my terms of "specialist" and "generalist" are either useful or accurate. But in my mind that's what I'm seeing when I look at these workers.

[Loss]

Hashimoto is like a stiffer version of Choshu. Hase to me continues more in the Fujinami tradition as a great all-around worker. Both are great, but I do think Hase is super underrated if anything. His match quality in the 1990s holds up to just about anyone outside of the All Japan 4. I'll definitely have him above Muto and Chono, and I don't think it's a huge gap between him and Hashimoto. I could see ranking them in either direction depending on what you value, but for 90s NJ heavies, I'd probably go:

 

Hashimoto

Hase

Muto

Chono

Sasaki

 

I think there's a huge gap between Hase and Muto, and I'm not entirely sure I'd rank Muto.

 

Again, that's all just based on 1990-1999.

[Dylan Waco]

Hase is one of those guys where if you are voting partially on skill level and flash I could see rating him fairly high. He was extremely gifted in the ring. Had a ton of tools, applied them in interesting ways, and certainly had an "ahead of his time" vibe in a way without being someone you think of as innovative or a high flyer. I also think he had a cool and unique look which fit his work and there is a sense in which that kind of matters to me when I'm looking at tiebreakers for something like the GWE.

 

The problem with Hase for me is that for all the flash and flare, there are almost no matches or performances that stick out. There are U.S. indie guys over the last fifteen years where I could rattle off a list of five or ten matches that knocked my socks off with ease. Many of them have half the talent of Hase or less. But when I'm looking at output resume I can immediately go to that. I would have to be told what Hase's best matches were despite the fact that I've likely seen them. That hurts him to me because it means that while he might be mechanically brilliant, he lacks a certain intangible quality I look for in an all timer.

 

It also hurts him to me that his AJPW run was so disappointing. Yeah it was late in his career, but for years prior one of the talking points had been "if only Hase was there he would be having all time classics with guys at his level." It wasn't all bad, but the Misawa match was the shits and that stink has always stuck with me.

 

He's probably one of the 100 best wrestlers ever, and I'd consider going back and watching some of his matches in the next six weeks before the ballot is due. That said he's not anyone I feel compelled to rate at all. And I might not.

[Jimmy Redman]

His best singles matches that I've seen are the Muta Scale match, vs Hash in 12/94 and vs Akiyama whenever that was.

 

I lean more towards you than Parv in that I think he's talented and have enjoyed his best matches, but I don't see him as a transcendent talent, nor does he have the volume of greatness either. If I rank him it will be down the bottom somewhere.

[Loss]

Here are the matches I'd recommend. There are more, but these all placed in my Top 100 for each year of the 90s, so I limited it to these for now. I bolded the best matches that I feel like the least people have seen.

 

Hiroshi Hase vs Great Muta (NJPW 09/14/90)
Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki vs Keiji Muto & Masa Chono (NJPW 11/01/90)

Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki vs Rick & Scott Steiner (NJPW 03/21/91)

Hiroshi Hase vs Jushin Liger (NJPW 05/06/91)

Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki vs Rick & Scott Steiner (NJPW 05/31/91)

Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki vs Keiji Muto & Masa Chono (NJPW 07/04/91)

Hiroshi Hase & Keiji Muto vs Vader & Bam Bam Bigelow (NJPW 05/01/92)

Hiroshi Hase vs Kensuke Sasaki (NJPW 06/26/92)

Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki vs Riki Choshu & Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 10/21/92)

10-man Tag, WAR vs NJ (NJPW 02/05/93)

10-man Elimination Tag, WAR vs NJ (NJPW 06/15/93)

Hiroshi Hase vs Samson Fuyuki (WAR 06/17/93)

Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 08/03/93)

Hiroshi Hase vs Genichiro Tenryu (NJPW 09/23/93)

Hiroshi Hase & Masa Chono vs Keiji Muto & Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 11/05/93)

Hiroshi Hase & Keiji Muto vs Rick & Scott Steiner (NJPW 01/04/94)

Hiroshi Hase vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 12/13/94)

Hiroshi Hase & Keiji Muto vs Rick & Scott Steiner (NJPW 01/04/95)

Hiroshi Hase & Kensuke Sasaki vs Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan (NJPW 03/07/95)

Hiroshi Hase vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 08/26/97)

[Timbo Slice]

The Hash IWGP title match is one my favorite matches ever, actually. I think it's a spirited Hash defense and right there with the Lyger defense as the best one Hash ever had. Hase's over offense made his near falls great, too. Match is here: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz7cgj_shinya-hashimoto-vs-hiroshi-hase-njpw-08-03-93_sport

 

I don't think he has enough in something like this, though. He'll be just out of my Top 100.

[JerryvonKramer]

In case anyone missed it, I reviewed a lot of those matches Loss mentioned here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32747-hiroshi-hase/

[Loss]

The Hash IWGP title match is one my favorite matches ever, actually. I think it's a spirited Hash defense and right there with the Lyger defense as the best one Hash ever had. Hase's over offense made his near falls great, too. Match is here: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xz7cgj_shinya-hashimoto-vs-hiroshi-hase-njpw-08-03-93_sport

 

I don't think he has enough in something like this, though. He'll be just out of my Top 100.

 

You totally no-sold me, haha.

[ohtani's jacket]

There's nothing I really like about Hase. He wrestles so much like a Joshi worker that I'd rather just watch Joshi, but I'm gonna check out a few of his recommended matches until either develop a liking for him or tap out.

[Timbo Slice]

My apologies on the Brody-like selling, Loss.

 

My thing with Hase is that I don't think he was someone that I actively thought was a great part of the matches he was in outside of a few exceptions. A lot of those matches being tag matches hurts him in my ways. I WILL hear the argument, however, that he was not booked in a way that built him up as a great singles performer.

[soup23]

Rewatched the Misawa 1/2000 match today. It is quite the odd match. The opening is worked in a real classical New Japan sort of way from the 1980's and 1990's. Misawa takes it to the mat at first to prove he can do that, Hase does the same with a strike exchange but those are the only two bits of contested action in the first fifteen minutes. The rest of the time results around Hase working the arm of Misawa. I have to say that I never tired of watching this due to Hase mixing things up. Misawa isn't someone that I think of as a great facial seller but he did well here. I can see this extended sequence testing the patience limits of many but it felt so unique that I remained invested. MIsawa doesn't look as much hurt as frustrated. Hase has a distinct game plan and refuses to betray it up until the last few minutes of the match where he deserts it to start throwing bombs. Misawa using the elbow can be seen as no selling the work that was invested into it and that is a valid criticism but I do usually give Misawa a pass on those things based on the character work he had built up over the ten previous years. Misawa is the sheriff in town and he will rely on what got him in charge in the first place until it betrays him. I also thought that Hase mainly performing stretches and more submission based work on the arm made it plausible that Misawa could still use it to effectiveness in the latter stages of the match. Hase put his all into this game plan and it didn't work out in the end. I didn't think this was a classic by any means, but it felt more refreshing and purposeful than the Hase vs. Kawada match from the 99 Dome show.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think it is a valid criticism of Hase that he doesn't always do long term selling as he might. He's good at selling and bumping in the moment, but sometimes he's a bit too eager to get to a spot and high impact moves can be brushed off too easily.

[GOTNW]

I've seen people criticise Hase for the same thing (shrugging off an injury) very recently. Is it also invalid in that case?

Well it would certainly help if it was specific Hase performances criticised instead of just general statements beings made. I'd be interested in looking into this if anyone wants to throw matches at me.

[JerryvonKramer]

During a year in which I've watched a lot of the 90s AJPW classics, I'd put Hase's match with Chono from the 1993 G1 up there with any of them. Review in Microscope.

 

Struggling to see why that match is not more heralded. Much superior to the Hash vs Hase bout from the same tournament.

[Jetlag]

I watched the match based on the ***** rating. It was a pretty good match, but nowhere near perfect. Hase's work on the neck was boring and didn't go anywhere. It gave me flashes of lousy Tanahashi matches. Some of the transitions were poor. Chono did look pretty good, atleast as good as Hase. His legwork was better, I like how he sold the damage to his neck and I also liked his unpredictable offense consisting of kicks to the face. The mirror figure 4 spots had self conscious epic written all over them. Hase's selling of the leg was good. Not a bad match at all, but it further cemented Hase as good but not great in my mind.

 

I dunno about the comment on AJPW matches. I guess you could argue it's more effective than your typical AJ epic with the consistent selling throughout. On the other hand there's probably 5 singles from 1993 alone I'd rank ahead. Not just from AJPW.

[JerryvonKramer]

How can you say the work on the neck didn't go anywhere when it played directly into the finish? To me that seems an absurd criticism and you are the second person to make it. That neck work in my view is the total opposite of aimless. Laser focus, his neck had a history of injury, varied offense all targeting it. And it "goes" into a finish where he taps to a hold that targets his neck (AND the legs, which he targets later).

 

Feel pretty strongly about this. It is a real weird criticism to say that stretch is "boring and didn't go anywhere". WTF? It demonstrably did go somewhere.

[ohtani's jacket]

I thought it was a legitimately great match, but there's a world of difference in having it surprise you and somebody dropping five stars on it. If I'd read the same five star review going in my expectations would have been far different and rightly or wrongly I would have been super critical of it. To me it was at least a solid four star match. You can haggle about how many quarter stars you add after that, but I have a pretty clear cut off point in my mind of what I think is four stars and it's a bit different from most folks in that a match is either four stars or it isn't and there's none of this retraction of quarter stars stuff where a flawed match is still four stars or four and a quarter. You're either in or you're out.

[JerryvonKramer]

I thought it was a legitimately great match, but there's a world of difference in having it surprise you and somebody dropping five stars on it. If I'd read the same five star review going in my expectations would have been far different and rightly or wrongly I would have been super critical of it. To me it was at least a solid four star match. You can haggle about how many quarter stars you add after that, but I have a pretty clear cut off point in my mind of what I think is four stars and it's a bit different from most folks in that a match is either four stars or it isn't and there's none of this retraction of quarter stars stuff where a flawed match is still four stars or four and a quarter. You're either in or you're out.

For me there are so many little things I could point to in 5-star AJPW classics that are routinely given a pass, and if I wanted to go into any single one of them and nitpick, I probably could.

 

I think Hase vs. Chono might be the most logically worked match I can remember seeing.

[Jetlag]

The initial transition to set up Hase working the neck was good. After that, the work on the neck consisted of: 1.) Hase doing a move. 2.) Hase picking Chono up. 3.) Go back to 1.). Why is he doing moves to Chono just to pick him up again? Also, why can't Chono fight back against Hase when Hase is doing the exact same moves several times in a row? This goes on for several minutes until Chono lands a random move and now it's Chono on the attack. Now it's Hase who is suddenly completely frozen and unable to fight back against Chono, even when Chono is locking in a basic toehold.

 

The work on the neck "went nowhere" meaning that it was buried underneath a whole lot of other stuff in the process. That is the opposite of "laser focus". It was basically two different matches glued together with the finish of the 1st edited on to the 2nd.

 

And yes, OJ's post is correct. I normally don't do star ratings, but I'd probably set the match around *** 3/4 - ****. It would struggle to make my Top 20-30 matches of 1993, so I'm hesitant to call it a classic (which **** indicates). Broken record to say, but if it happened today, it would probably crack the **** rating and be considered a strong MOTYC.

 

 

 

I think Hase vs. Chono might be the most logically worked match I can remember seeing.

 

I think having a logical match should be standard for workers and if the work isn't great logic alone doesn't cut it.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd have to disagree and my review lists many of the different moves Hase used to work over Chono's neck. I recall seeing a piledriver, a stunner, a swinging neckbreaker, a Russian leg sweep, leapfrog body guillotines (aka Bossman's move), various strikes to the back of the neck, a reverse chinlock, various northern lights suplexes including one from the top rope, ura-nages, a German suplex, STF ... were you actually watching the same match?

 

Also, I don't get this talking about about one guy being "frozen" while the other guy is on offense. This is pro wrestling we are talking about right? I don't recall too many people criticising Ricky Morton for not fighting back during a FIP sequence. Do you want everyone to work like Inoki, Dory and Backlund giving only grudgingly and not staying down during the other guy's control sequences? Genuinely interested.

 

Kobashi and Akiyama both routinely "stay down" while being worked over too. This is an unusual criticism to make of a pro wrestling match in my view. It's an absolutely standard trope.