Jun Akiyama

[Jimmy Redman]

It is, but when I see people touting him as a Top 10, Top 20 candidate, that IS the standard to compare him to, to the guys who I have on that level.

 

And yeah I do understand that about the matches and wasn't exactly expecting him to take centre stage. It's just the combo of basically being wallpaper in those matches, as well as seeing other guys - Tenryu, Taue - do the 'angry vet' thing so much better, and 'angry vet' is the role he's settled into in the last decade or so. It was just an example of how little an impression he makes on me, in any situation.

 

This is all my way of saying that I'll rank him, but probably in the second half of my ballot somewhere. I just don't see him as an elite worker.

[GOTNW]

Early Sternness Akiyama is easily my favourite character ever. I watched a tag match recently that was like him and Mossman vs Kobashi and Kentaro Shiga and he put on one of the greatest performances I've ever seen and turned what should've been just a throwaway tag match into a near perfect one. It's also something that was gradually lost over time and while I love Akiyama whether he's a super rookie, an upper midcarder desperately trying to break through or a grumpy veteran I really wish we got ten years of him taunting the top babyfaces and shitbeating their young boys.

[benjaminkicks]

It's funny, because in my head I see Jun being "The Guy That Came After Those Guys" as a big part of his character.

 

He's the guy who was destined to be the successor to the All Japan throne, and yet could never measure up to the Pillars. He was always living in the shadow of those guys, and he had a massive inferiority complex because of that. Even in his early years he had a big chip on his shoulder, and that reaches it's boiling point in the early days of NOAH when he switches to the white trunks and becomes the Stern badass. It's a narrative that continues into 2016 with Akiyama trying desperately as the Ace of current All Japan to bring the company back to it's former heights, but ultimately failing because those heights are simply unreachable.

 

Of course that's all just part of my headcanon for the grand All Japan meta-narrative, but it's something I think about when I watch Akiyama wrestle, and it greatly enhances my enjoyment of him.

[GOTNW]

I think a lot of someone's impression of Akiyama has to do with what they watch as he's not someone like Hashimoto or Choshu or Maeda where he comes off larger than life whatever you watch nor is he the most consistent worker ever and he has had his down periods.

 

I also really don't see the argument that Taue is a better grumpy veteran than Akiyama (that's not a role I've ever associated with Taue) or Taue above Akiyama in general. I LOVE Taue but Akiyama smokes him in terms of range, longevity, variety.....I could see someone preferring Taue if they think 90s All Japan is the greatest wrestling ever (which I don't) but even peak for peak I'd take Akiyama easily.

[Benbeeach]

What was Akiyama's peak?
I think consistency and longevity definitely put Akiyama high. I definitely feel the "guy after the guys" sentiments. Even when he emerged as a man all his own in the early 2000's, Kobashi reemerged and knocked Jun right back down. And then unselfishly I suppose, Jun didn't take the reigns when Kobashi went down, and then there was the old man Misawa holding pattern run until he perished. For as good as he's been for as long as he's been, his time as THEE guy, or perhaps literally A GUY of sorts seemd so short and disparate compared to the other guys his resume would otherwise have him placed next to. As others have said, we have young rookie Jun. We've got grumpy old Jun. The middle, most guys most crucial portion, just seems kind of...there. Not free of quality, but free of some, soul? A stamp of sorts that says THIS IS WHO I AM as a character, a worker.

[GOTNW]

I was thinking more in terms of peak performances and matches but I'd absolutely take 2000-2004 Akiyama over any Taue period. If you go into Akiyama expecting him to deliver a bunch of 30 minute sines matches MOTYCs you're bound to be disappointed. Not that he couldn't do it but that's not really what he was/is about as a worker. Incidentally I think losing focus as a character is what lead to his down period, which had a plethora of very good matches and performances anyway. If someone watches the Sternness vs Burning tags and doesn't "get" Akiyama or his character it's them and I'm not sure what to even say to convince them.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think he's a contender for "best FIP ever" in a conversation with Ricky Morton, Steamboat, Terry Funk, Kobashi, Kikcuhi, and Rick Martel.

[JerryvonKramer]

I love wrestling. Last time I spent a decent amount of time watching wrestling in a day, I saw some matches that I enjoyed the hell out of... some stuff I thought was "eh"... and got some laughs in at Flair:

 

http://otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2202

 

Last time I wrote about a match was a couple of days ago here, where I talked about a match that I liked that someone else didn't.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31793-jvk-reviews-pimped-matches-from-late-90s-10s/?p=5708431

 

* * * * *

 

As far as this, it lost me right around here:

 

JA: Dropkick to knee

JA: Dragon Screw

JA: five stomps to the knee while Kobashi Hulk's Up

JA: Running kick to knee

KK: Chop

JA: Stomp

KK: Urakana (blocked)

JA: Exploder

KK: No Sells

KK: Half Nelson Suplex

JA: Zombie sells

JA: Dropkick to knee

 

Oh... they're dead now as Jun rolls to the floor and Kenta rolls towards the apron.

 

Oh... they're not dead yet as Jun comes over and theydosey doe around until...

 

KK: Half Nelson Suplez on the floor

 

Kenta rolls him back in the ring for a count, which Jun kicks out close to three because he's freaking dead 11+ minutes into this.

 

KK: DDT + cover

KK: Full Nelson Suplex + cover

 

Kobashi suddenly again remembers that his knee hurts. He still decides to set for a move where he'll need his knee: a power bomb. No, wait... it hurts too much and he drops Jun and wanders around a bit. No... wait... it's okay now..

 

KK: Choppy choppy chop

KK: plants the fuck out of Jun with a power bomb + sells the hell out of the knee...

 

Jun takes the opportunity to roll onto the arpon, which everyone who has been following along for a while knows is to set up a spot off the arpron to the floor.

 

Kobashi sets Jun for a Half Nelson Suplex off the apron, which makes perfect sense if you're selling your knee like Kobashi has been. Hell, any move off the apron makes perfect sense, as does the 50/50 chance that it will get counters, as is always the case since All Japan went to needing to have these in damn near every big match that it's become a meme by this point.

 

Jun counters the half nelson suplex attempt with a weak back elbow, then wins the "struggle" with Kobashi by eatting some chops while giving Kobashi's knee some love taps, puts on the hold for the Dragon Screw surprisingly easy, which Kobashi makes no attempt to stop or block and really only tries to position himself so that he eats it in a really nice visual fashion.

 

Dude in the first row really likes it. But then again, Dudes in front rows like Sabu going through tables.

 

Jun is surprisingly okay for a guy who ate a pair of Half Nelson Suplexes (one to the floor), a Full Nelson Suplex and just got power bombed the fuck out of. 7/94 Doc after the backdrop driver this ain't.

 

Jun proceeds to attack the knee in a variety of ways for close to seven minutes, which would be compelling if (i) we hadn't just seen Kenta blow off the prior knee shit by Hulking Up, (ii) Jun had any knee related finishers, and (iii) damn if Kobashi doesn't just pop up to cut off all of this knee work as well.

 

Oh well...

 

It's kind of funny that folks coined the term self-conscious epic more recently, especially for later day WWE Main Event Style. It would have been a good term for back here. I did see Pete use it for a Misawa-Kawada the year before, but this one really has the vibe even more.

If anyone wants to see what a * hatchet-job of a review looks like, this is it. What a terrible review (of a tremendous match).

 

Also, fans of the insider terminology, that's called a payback spot.

[KB8]

What are the grumpy old man Jun performances I should watch before the deadline? I'm kind of having a hard time placing him (I WILL place him, of course; just not sure where) and I think a lot of that is down to 2010s Japanese wrestling being a pretty big blind spot for me. If there's anything there that adds to his case (grumpy old man performances will go a long way with me), throw it at me.

[Dylan Waco]

For singles my favorite two matches from Akiyama in the last five years were 6/5/14 v. Omori and 4/29/13 v. KAI. I thought both matches were brilliant Akiyama performances, but he's got very good to great matches in the last five years v. Miyahara, Funaki, Kea, Shiozaki and even Mutoh.

 

Also his team with Omori is pretty much the best old man tag team on Earth over the last couple of years. I wasn't quite as high on their best stuff last year as other people, but it's all good at minimum, and well worth watching. Their match v. Go and Miyahara from 12/6/14 was maybe a top five MOTY that year (as was the Omori singles match above).

[KB8]

Well that's as good a place to start as any! Thanks.

[jdw]

 

I love wrestling. Last time I spent a decent amount of time watching wrestling in a day, I saw some matches that I enjoyed the hell out of... some stuff I thought was "eh"... and got some laughs in at Flair:

 

http://otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2202

 

Last time I wrote about a match was a couple of days ago here, where I talked about a match that I liked that someone else didn't.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31793-jvk-reviews-pimped-matches-from-late-90s-10s/?p=5708431

 

* * * * *

 

As far as this, it lost me right around here:

 

JA: Dropkick to knee

JA: Dragon Screw

JA: five stomps to the knee while Kobashi Hulk's Up

JA: Running kick to knee

KK: Chop

JA: Stomp

KK: Urakana (blocked)

JA: Exploder

KK: No Sells

KK: Half Nelson Suplex

JA: Zombie sells

JA: Dropkick to knee

 

Oh... they're dead now as Jun rolls to the floor and Kenta rolls towards the apron.

 

Oh... they're not dead yet as Jun comes over and theydosey doe around until...

 

KK: Half Nelson Suplez on the floor

 

Kenta rolls him back in the ring for a count, which Jun kicks out close to three because he's freaking dead 11+ minutes into this.

 

KK: DDT + cover

KK: Full Nelson Suplex + cover

 

Kobashi suddenly again remembers that his knee hurts. He still decides to set for a move where he'll need his knee: a power bomb. No, wait... it hurts too much and he drops Jun and wanders around a bit. No... wait... it's okay now..

 

KK: Choppy choppy chop

KK: plants the fuck out of Jun with a power bomb + sells the hell out of the knee...

 

Jun takes the opportunity to roll onto the arpon, which everyone who has been following along for a while knows is to set up a spot off the arpron to the floor.

 

Kobashi sets Jun for a Half Nelson Suplex off the apron, which makes perfect sense if you're selling your knee like Kobashi has been. Hell, any move off the apron makes perfect sense, as does the 50/50 chance that it will get counters, as is always the case since All Japan went to needing to have these in damn near every big match that it's become a meme by this point.

 

Jun counters the half nelson suplex attempt with a weak back elbow, then wins the "struggle" with Kobashi by eatting some chops while giving Kobashi's knee some love taps, puts on the hold for the Dragon Screw surprisingly easy, which Kobashi makes no attempt to stop or block and really only tries to position himself so that he eats it in a really nice visual fashion.

 

Dude in the first row really likes it. But then again, Dudes in front rows like Sabu going through tables.

 

Jun is surprisingly okay for a guy who ate a pair of Half Nelson Suplexes (one to the floor), a Full Nelson Suplex and just got power bombed the fuck out of. 7/94 Doc after the backdrop driver this ain't.

 

Jun proceeds to attack the knee in a variety of ways for close to seven minutes, which would be compelling if (i) we hadn't just seen Kenta blow off the prior knee shit by Hulking Up, (ii) Jun had any knee related finishers, and (iii) damn if Kobashi doesn't just pop up to cut off all of this knee work as well.

 

Oh well...

 

It's kind of funny that folks coined the term self-conscious epic more recently, especially for later day WWE Main Event Style. It would have been a good term for back here. I did see Pete use it for a Misawa-Kawada the year before, but this one really has the vibe even more.

If anyone wants to see what a * hatchet-job of a review looks like, this is it. What a terrible review (of a tremendous match).

 

Also, fans of the insider terminology, that's called a payback spot.

 

 

It's not a review of a match. Which is extremely clear from the "it lost me right around here" comment.

 

My review of the full match was more concise in the prior post:

 

This was 40 minutes of my life by going over to Youtube to see if I'd forgotten about this one. I now recall why I specifically wrote that "one last time" comment in the DVDVR 90s Poll. The one thing I'd take back from it is that 6/98 isn't really all that great either.

 

 

The payback comment is cute, though.

[pol]

Greatest rookie punishment match worker on both sides of the formula?

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not going to name names but I've heard a couple of people scoff at the idea of Akiyama at a top ten contender in recent weeks. With the exception of the jdw stuff, this thread is largely filled with praise and people pointing out how strong they see him as a contender, but I think it's worth pointing out just how substantial Akiyama's career has been.

 

Akiyama's career sort of kicked into full gear right as hardcore fan cultural exploded via the internet, and he's still trucking along. This is not an irrelevancy. There is a narrative around Akiyama of failure. He's the prodigy who got it right out of the gates, had great matches with all timers where he was more than up to the task, but then when it was his turn he couldn't carry the load. There is a lot about that narrative that I think is surface level true, but collapses under critical scrutiny. There is also a lot about that narrative that I just think is false. But I do think for many people the perception of Akiyama as the guy who failed as the heir to Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada has distorted how we view his actual work.

 

Consider this. Virtually no one denies that Akiyama has been somewhere on a spectrum from very good to excellent as a worker for 24 years now. This sentiment is especially strong among those who have actually watched big chunks of his post-AJPW split work. This means in terms of things that can be documented with footage Akiyama has a longer duration of quality work than all but a small number of wrestlers in history. All of the people who might have him beat out that I can think of are number one contenders, and Akiyama's run exceeds the length of many other number one contenders (Kobashi, Bryan, dare I say, Ric Flair). As Ditch noted earlier in the vast majority of years in this period he wasn't merely a very good hand, but a guy who was having MOTYC or near MOTYC matches. And yet despite this I get the distinct feeling from conversations and podcasts I've heard that Akiyama's career is seen as clearly less impressive than absolute top tier guys.

 

Here it might be notable that the counter narrative view of people who see him as top ten, if not top five, seems to be closely related to the argument that he was one of the best handful of wrestlers on Earth from the decade of the 00s. Many of these fans grew up during this period or found puro during his period. To them the stigma of not being Misawa 2.0 probably isn't as strong and may not exist at all.

 

Some might dismiss the value of being a top level guy for the 00's, but I think that's wrong headed even if you are generally of the belief that the 80s, 90s or even 70s were better decades for ring work. I say this because technological changes and other factors made the 00's an incredible rich time period in terms of access to contemporary footage. The truth is that there is more good wrestling on tape from the 00's than any other period in history, and Akiyama emerged from that decade as someone who was probably no worse than top five, and a viable "best on Earth" contender for the era.

 

For roughly 24 years now Akiyama has been a good wrestler. This isn't a guess or a possibility. This is something we can document with video evidence and many of us have watched him from the beginning or near beginning of this run. I actually think this works against him for some people because it takes him outside of the context of history and instead makes him a sort of peer to the viewer. For others I think the narrative of failure clouds their perceptions of him.

 

I have no clue where I will rank him at this point, and I don't think he's clearly better than any of the AJPW big four. But if I'm being fully honest with myself, I don't think he's clearly worse than any of them either.

[WingedEagle]

I'm not sure there's any distortion or unfair criticism being leveled against Akiyama. You're pushing for him to be considered as a top 10 all-timer. That's a high threshold and one that many people can easily dismiss while at the same time regarding him as dynamic and consistent with an epic run of good to classic matches that earn him a spot among their top 20, 30 or 50.

[GOTNW]

 

Greatest rookie punishment match worker on both sides of the formula?

I'd say this is untrue, not because his lack of ability but I don't remember him working any rookie punishment matches where he was the punished rookie. Maybe vs. Hansen. But due to the nature of his early push I don't he worked many of them. He is amazing as the punisher, and I don't think anyone in history has excelled in that role more than Akiyama. Even if you watch something as early as his match vs The Lacrosse in 1996 you see just how fucking great he is at that sort of thing.

 

I'm not going to name names

Well you should.

[Childs]

He worked some rookie punishment matches against Kawada and certainly took on that role in tags and six-mans.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not sure there's any distortion or unfair criticism being leveled against Akiyama. You're pushing for him to be considered as a top 10 all-timer. That's a high threshold and one that many people can easily dismiss while at the same time regarding him as dynamic and consistent with an epic run of good to classic matches that earn him a spot among their top 20, 30 or 50.

 

I'm not suggesting there is distortion or unfair criticism. But I do think when you became a fan has a lot to do with how you view Akiyama. I may be wrong but I see the trends out there and it seems to point to something.

 

That said, when speaking of "thresholds" I'm not sure how many guys who have as many consensus great matches with as many different people and a run of being very good at minimum for as long as Akiyama does who aren't seen as number one contenders, let alone top ten contenders.

 

What's interesting to me about Akiyama is that no one really seems to reject the particulars (for example I might disagree with Michaels particulars, some with the lucha standouts, et.). I just think there are some fans who don't instinctively see him/feel him as being at that level because of how his career narrative has unfolded.

[Tim Cooke]

He worked some rookie punishment matches against Kawada and certainly took on that role in tags and six-mans.

 

Childs spoke to the trios matches, especially in 1993.

 

In singles matches, the 7/9/93 vs Kawada is the definition of a rookie punishment match. Same with the 4/13/95 Hansen match.

[WingedEagle]

 

I'm not sure there's any distortion or unfair criticism being leveled against Akiyama. You're pushing for him to be considered as a top 10 all-timer. That's a high threshold and one that many people can easily dismiss while at the same time regarding him as dynamic and consistent with an epic run of good to classic matches that earn him a spot among their top 20, 30 or 50.

 

I'm not suggesting there is distortion or unfair criticism. But I do think when you became a fan has a lot to do with how you view Akiyama. I may be wrong but I see the trends out there and it seems to point to something.

 

That said, when speaking of "thresholds" I'm not sure how many guys who have as many consensus great matches with as many different people and a run of being very good at minimum for as long as Akiyama does who aren't seen as number one contenders, let alone top ten contenders.

 

What's interesting to me about Akiyama is that no one really seems to reject the particulars (for example I might disagree with Michaels particulars, some with the lucha standouts, et.). I just think there are some fans who don't instinctively see him/feel him as being at that level because of how his career narrative has unfolded.

 

 

What's the problem with his career narrative? I can't speak for the masses, either at PWO or among those who have watched much AJPW or NOAH, but at no point in his career did I ever see him at the level of Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Taue or Jumbo. An absolutely phenomenal wrestler who would've been the best thing going in New Japan and many other places, but yeah, he happened to fall into a universe that prominently featured a handful of what I consider to be the greater professional wrestlers to have ever lived. That doesn't demean his output whatsoever, but its a pretty high standard to meet. Scottie Pippen was damn good, but he wasn't Jordan.

[Dylan Waco]

I think there is a ton wrong or at least exaggerated about his career narrative, but very little of that has to do with him as a worker and that's sort of my point. There is a relatively strong consensus about Akiyama as a worker even among groups of people who don't agree on almost anything else. I wouldn't say he's quite Daniel Bryan level in that regard, but he's almost certainly the Japanese wrestler of the last fifteen years who best parallels Bryan in terms of being a sort of "unity ticket" favorite, but unlike Bryan he's got years before that where he happened to be considered a great prodigy who was tearing it up with the best wrestlers on Earth in a promotion that many fans regard as the greatest in wrestling history. No one scoffs at Bryan as a top ten or even top spot candidate, but there are a few who seem really dismissive of that idea when it comes to Akiyama.

 

I mean in this thread you talk about him as a guy who some may put in top ten, or top twenty, or top fifty. That's fine and probably half or more of the lists are already in so my lobbying probably wouldn't help much anyhow at this point. But unless you disagree with the consensus (which is fine, god knows I do on many people) it would seem really odd to me to see a guy with 24 years as a very good to great wrestler, who was one of the best handful of workers of the 00's, has probably had as many very good to great matches on tape as anyone in history or at the very least would be in the upper tier, has been involved in great matches for literally the entire run of his career, has been involved in matches many consider to be among the best if not the best in history, et., et., et. and think "yeah 48 is about right." I mean it's possible but if you agree with my view on the resume - and I really don't see many people objecting to the resume as I laid it out - I don't see how he could be seen as much less than a top 25 guy.

 

I swear I'm not even trying to be super argumentative about this. I just think it's interesting that a guy with so much consensus around him being a great wrestler for as long as he has been isn't really seen as a top tier guy. I literally can't think of any other wrestler he would be analogous to in that regard. Can you?

[Jingus]

He suffers from being the young boy in perhaps the single greatest generation of talent that the industry has ever seen. I love Akiyama and he was in the top half of my list, but I'm not sure if I'd even rank him in a Top Ten AJPW Veterans list, the competition is just SO stiff in that particular category of wrestling.

 

And it also doesn't help his general perception among us that he seemingly aged from "plucky underdog rookie" to "grumpy old fucker who beats up the plucky rookies" within the blink of an eye, with practically no transitional period of The Top Guy In His Prime in between. Over and over again, the booking kept going back to Misawa & Co. as the top stars whenever they felt like Jun just wasn't ready.

[GOTNW]

Akiyama booked himself. He never wanted to be on top. If you want to judge him for not being comfortable with being the top guy then you're free to do so but that's all there it was to it.

[WingedEagle]

I think there is a ton wrong or at least exaggerated about his career narrative, but very little of that has to do with him as a worker and that's sort of my point. There is a relatively strong consensus about Akiyama as a worker even among groups of people who don't agree on almost anything else. I wouldn't say he's quite Daniel Bryan level in that regard, but he's almost certainly the Japanese wrestler of the last fifteen years who best parallels Bryan in terms of being a sort of "unity ticket" favorite, but unlike Bryan he's got years before that where he happened to be considered a great prodigy who was tearing it up with the best wrestlers on Earth in a promotion that many fans regard as the greatest in wrestling history. No one scoffs at Bryan as a top ten or even top spot candidate, but there are a few who seem really dismissive of that idea when it comes to Akiyama.

 

I mean in this thread you talk about him as a guy who some may put in top ten, or top twenty, or top fifty. That's fine and probably half or more of the lists are already in so my lobbying probably wouldn't help much anyhow at this point. But unless you disagree with the consensus (which is fine, god knows I do on many people) it would seem really odd to me to see a guy with 24 years as a very good to great wrestler, who was one of the best handful of workers of the 00's, has probably had as many very good to great matches on tape as anyone in history or at the very least would be in the upper tier, has been involved in great matches for literally the entire run of his career, has been involved in matches many consider to be among the best if not the best in history, et., et., et. and think "yeah 48 is about right." I mean it's possible but if you agree with my view on the resume - and I really don't see many people objecting to the resume as I laid it out - I don't see how he could be seen as much less than a top 25 guy.

 

I swear I'm not even trying to be super argumentative about this. I just think it's interesting that a guy with so much consensus around him being a great wrestler for as long as he has been isn't really seen as a top tier guy. I literally can't think of any other wrestler he would be analogous to in that regard. Can you?

 

I've got zero issue with the idea of Akiyama as a top tier candidate. Its a completely plausible one that doesn't exactly require digging through obscurity to reach if you're that high on him throughout the entire course of his career. The standout performances are well known during much of the run as is the depth. Because of when he rose to his position I don't think he's part of anywhere near the number of classics as the rest of the AJ crew. That's simply a function of timing rather than anything he did wrong, but I think his list is a lot shorter. In NOAH and beyond, you've got the depth and the long run once again, but I didn't find him someone churning out MOTYC's regularly. If you were blown away by what he was doing upon returning to All Japan then that stuff can pretty easily assist making an elite case for him, but your mileage may vary there. Really comes down to how you see that material.

[Grimmas]

Akiyama has a sneaky long peak and was great all of his career. Not sure where he will rank, but he is solidly in the top 30.