Tito Santana

[shoe]

No, but Tito did say it was a big difference working in front of 2,000 people in Armarillo vs. 20,000 in the WWF.

[shoe]

I just rewatched Robinson vs. Tito from 81. From what I saw I thought Robinson looked pretty good. We didn't see a ton of him on offense. What we did see was pretty great. The best part of the match I thought were Robinson's big bumps. When Tito was in control he didn't do much for me. He used a headlock a lot but really didn't do anything with it. I really liked the European upper cut exchange, I wish Tito used that move more often.Overall I felt it was solid, but nothing I need to see anytime soon again.

[dgrblue]

Tito and Valentine had great matches.

[Coffey]

Tito Santana is on my list. I might be the high man for Tito, actually. I think Tito Santana might be my favorite babyface of all-time. I just love the way he dies. His comesbacks & fire are great too, but he's just so good at dying. He made everyone he wrestled look like a god. Even when he was squashed in a nothing match at Wrestlemania by The Barbarian. His selling of the top rope Clothesline just made it seem so much more brutal & impactful. Tito was good at what he did.

 

I remember hearing/reading about how it was down to Tito Santana Vs. Bret Hart for whom WWE was going to groom for the top spot after all the steroid trials & Hulk Hogan drama. Tito & the Latinos or Bret & the Canadians. They went with Bret. I'm not sure about the validity of this story but it's certainly fun to think about. Especially now seeing how big the Latino market is in the United States & for pro-wrestling. Would Tito have worked at a top guy if he never took on the El Matadore gimmick? I don't know. Bret was pretty damn good...

 

Of course Ricky Morton is noted for his great babyface work & he comes to mind too but Tito is up there for babyfaces for me.

[Matt D]

Tito might be the best babyface of all time. It says something about me that I have the top bad guy of all time in my top 3 and I can't see Tito above 20,

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't think Tito is in the top 5 best babyfaces.

[Coffey]

Then you should list the five.

 

I think top three best babyfaces are Tito, Morton & Steamboat.

[JerryvonKramer]

Top five working babyfaces:

 

5. Morton

4. Brisco

3. Martel

2. Steamboat

1. Kobashi

 

Top five working aces:

 

5. Bret Hart

4. Fujinami

3. Lawler

2. Misawa

1. Jumbo

 

Top five charismatic babyfaces:

 

5. Bruno

4. Dusty

3. Rock

2. Austin

1. Hogan

 

Five other great babyfaces to think about:

 

Rey

Savage

Shawn Michaels

Kerry von Erich

John Cena

 

An area someone else needs to comment on:

 

Lucha

 

Tito has stiff competition.

[Ricky Jackson]

I'm pretty sure I'll be the high vote on Tito.

 

And Savage, Backlund, Piper, Bruno, Roberts...

[Coffey]

I'm pretty sure I'll be the high vote on Tito.

 

Still months to go, stuff to watch & some placement tinkering to go... but right now on my list he's #24.

[Matt D]

If I had to guess right now 25-35, but I'm going on feel.

[JerryvonKramer]

Why though?

[Matt D]

Past maybe Ricky Morton, he's the purest living definition of the shine-heat-comeback structure of wrestling, who obviously had strong feelings about what wrestling should be and executed that understanding over years and matches to great effect. He is primal and iconic, tapped in to the very leylines that power pro wrestling.

[JerryvonKramer]

My issue is that while it is true that Tito always gives 100% and makes it seem like winning is important, he was often doing it in midcard spots in okay matches that actually didn't mean anything.

 

Whereas, let's say Rick Martel or Kobashi, were both often doing it in very good to all-time-classic matches that did mean something.

 

I maintain that card positioning does matter.

 

What are the top 20 Tito Santana matches not involving Greg Valentine?

[Matt D]

Thankfully, I don't care about any of that really. I mean I do enough that he's not #1, but not enough that he's not #30. I may have Martel above him (and if I don't, it's because he's hurt by his heel work and because I don't think he shows QUITE the level of understanding that I think Tito does). If I were to rate Kobashi, I'd probably have him above Tito.

[JerryvonKramer]

Reckon he'll finish above Hansen for you Matt?

[Matt D]

Nope. But it'll be close.

[shoe]

I'll have in my top 50.

[thebrainfollower]

My earliest wrestling memory I can ID is Tito in the hospital bed vowing revenge on Greg Valentine. Got 4-5 year old me (depends on the date) interested enough to keep watching. Tito was my favorite singles wrestler for my first two years of viewing and he holds up even better than I expected. Possibly top 35 or so for me.

[KB8]

I said in the career babybface thread that re-watching the Valentine feud would likely shoot Tito up my list, and hasn't it just. I still have a couple of their matches to go, but that feud is really awesome and even better than I remembered.

 

Tito has to be one of the best "babyface fire" guys in US history, right? Among his contemporaries like Steamboat, Martel, etc. I think he brought the most believable hate and fire, and I'm not sure it's terribly close. Not that Steamboat and Martel were meek, but the 10/84 Tito/Greg match where he's coming back from the knee injury is ten minutes of Tito going total fucking apeshit and it was amazing. Steamboat never hit that level of intensity even after Randy Savage crushed his larynx. I've ever seen Martel hit it. They've gotten "fired up" before, but not like Tito against Greg where it looked like he literally wanted to kill him at points. It's been a while since I've watched any of the Tito/Savage feud, but I think I'm gonna re-watch that as well after I get done with the Valentine series. I remember him getting plenty pissed off in that as well, and the no holds barred match from MSG has always been a huge personal favorite of mine. I also want to check out some of the Strike Force/Islanders matches that were being pimped in the Islanders Microscope thread. Not necessarily because I expect they'll feature Tito going nuts, but rather because I've never seen them before and right now I feel like I should watch as much good Tito as I can find.

 

I'm not sure how high he goes, but he's locked down a spot. He was pretty damn great.

[elliott]

I voted Tito Santana 85th in 2016 and I feel fine about that. I'm glad I didn't get carried away and vote for him in the top 50, but I'm also glad to see him on my list. He's one of those folks who could land anywhere between 80 and 200. Clearly a great wrestler with a classic feud against Valentine and a great one against Savage. Never bad. During his prime years never worse than very good. Hard to get excited about this time around but someone very worthy of consideration. 

[KB8]

I had Tito at 51 in 2016, and in hindsight that might be a bit high, but I don't regret it either. Like with many candidates proximity matters, and I watched a stack of Tito (and talked about it in this thread) before the last deadline, so he was fresh in the memory. I haven't watched much since then, but I'm not about to forget how good he was. I stand by the idea that he was better at showing a palpable sense of hatred or "babyface fire" (sort of a nebulous term, I know, but I think most people get the gist of what I mean) than many/just about all of his contemporaries. I said it five years ago, but I would have him above Martel and Steamboat in that regard without too much thought. He was a really good tag wrestler and pretty great in a brawl, which the Valentine matches KIND OF were even when they technically weren't (i.e. they kicked fuck out each other) and a couple of the Savage matches definitely were. I'm hyped about finally watching the Bockwinkel match from Houston and I should probably check to see if any substantial AWA stuff has surfaced since the DVDVR set. Tito ruled, man. 

 

TITO SANTANA YOU SHOULD WATCH:

w/Rick Martel v High Flyers (AWA, 8/29/82)

v Greg Valentine (WWF 1/21/85)

w/Ricky Steamboat v Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake (WWF, 4/21/85)

v Randy Savage (WWF 4/21/86)

v Mr. Perfect (WWF Saturday Night's Main Event, 7/28/90)

[NotJayTabb]

Had half an hour spare on Saturday, so watched a couple of Tito matches on YouTube, both of which I very much enjoyed. Not all-time classics, but matches where I thought "If Tito wasn't this, it would be a lot worse". First was a 1990 match against Al Perez, a guy who I've always thought was fundamentally fine, but I've never been excited by. This was a really good 10 minute match, with Perez focusing on the back and Tito selling and making Perez look great. The other match was a 5 minute sprint from 1993 against Headshrinker Fatu, and it was good fun. I assumed by June 93 that Tito would be checking out, but he still had great energy, still knew how to work underneath against a bigger guy, and still really fun to watch. Feel like I want to go on a deeper Tito dig now.