John Cena

[Loss]

I always thought Cena-RVD at One Night Stand was awesome. The crowd was predisposed to hate him, but he still played them like a fiddle to get even more heat.

[goc]

I always thought Cena-RVD at One Night Stand was awesome. The crowd was predisposed to hate him, but he still played them like a fiddle to get even more heat.

Actually I do think that's a match Parv would really like if just for that reason alone.

[Jimmy Redman]

Fuck, I knew I'd forget something.

 

Cena tossing his t-shirt around for half an hour is just the greatest.

[ProducerMatt]

Fuck, I knew I'd forget something.

 

Cena tossing his t-shirt around for half an hour is just the greatest.

But thats not MOVEZ~!

 

(also, yeah that's the greatest thing Cena ever did to the 'smarks')

[Jimmy Redman]

Indeed, although I do love a good,

 

"YOU CANT WRES-TLE!"

*proceeds to have workrate classic*

 

as well.

[Slasher]

My favorite part of the match was Cena's entrance where he marched down to the ring in total defiance with the belt held up high, as if to say "I am the champ whether you like it or not." It seemed like a very subtle but firm statement that worked so well in context.

[Jimmy Redman]

He's done something similar since then as well, in big matches where his opponent is the clear hometown hero. He just puts his head down, holds the belt up and goes to work. Not heelish, but defiant.

 

Sidebar, Kelly Kelly did the same thing when she faced Beth Phoenix in Buffalo in 2011. One of the many reasons why I love that match.

[ProducerMatt]

Indeed, although I do love a good,

 

"YOU CANT WRES-TLE!"

*proceeds to have workrate classic*

 

as well.

Oh, God yeah. Cena can bring it when he needs to. Plus, it seems when he goes against so-called indy darlings (Well, Punk, Owens & Bryan immediately spring to mind, but I believe some ace stuff happened in the Rollins/Lesnar triple threat at the Rumble) he busts out something new that you'd never expect him to. Whether it's an Emerald Flowsion, Yoshi Tonic (Still can't believe that).

[Mr. Lacelle]

I think his TV match with Cesaro from last year was his best & Parv would dig the heck out of Cesaro.

[Coffey]

My favorite part of the match was Cena's entrance where he marched down to the ring in total defiance with the belt held up high, as if to say "I am the champ whether you like it or not."

 

I liked the crowd chanting "same old shit!" so then he did some new stuff, including that top rope legdrop which might have been the first time I ever seen him do that. They then chanted "...you still suck!"

[GOTNW]

Matt D in the MSG thread:

 

It's pretty ironic: Cena overreacting to the notions that he can't wrestle has done a lot to make him someone who can't wrestle instead of one of the best in the world like he used to be.

 

How do others think this year has been for Cena? I wasn't especially fond of the Owens workrate matches but I liked the Rollins matches, especially the Night Of Champions bout. It had a strong layout and focus on countering finishers and presenting them as threats instead of just spamming them a lot. He also carried Cody Rhodes to an entertaining match and most folks over here seem to be irrationally high on the Rusev matches.

[goc]

I wouldn't agree with that last statement. I didn't see a lot of praise for the Rusev matches outside of the first one. If anything I'd say people were being irrationally high on the Owens matches. I haven't seen the Rollins matches as there is no way I'm giving WWE money anymore now that NWAClassics has come out and given me way more enjoyment for a buck cheaper than WWE Network ever did at $9.99.

[DMJ]

As an overall year, I'd put him at the top of the WWE. Lesnar has been excellent too, but his aura as a part-timer makes his "nothing" matches (like squashing Big Show on Saturday) seem top notch even if they're nothing better than average. For my money, Lesnar is more "must see," but Cena's been a constant for a decade+ so its hard to view him that way anyway.

 

Here's what seals it for me -

* The Triple Threat from Rumble is probably still my MOTY

* I liked Owens/Cena 1 a good bit

* Cena/Neville was cool

* Cena/Zayn was cool

* Cena/Cesaro was cool

* I liked the Rusev/Cena "I Quit" match even if it was cartoonish

* Last week's 30-minute segment/matches with New Day proved he's still RAW's "MVP." As good as New Day is, against lesser opponents, they merely overshadow their foes. Up against Cena, they came off as a legit main event act.

* The Cena/Rollins match at SummerSlam was great until the finish

* The Cena/Rollins RAW match where Cena got his nose broke was a strong TV match

* Cena/Rollins in the cage was solid on Saturday, it just sucked from these two already fighting like 6 times this summer already

 

Reigns has quietly had a good year too, arguably a Top 3 in the WWE, but there were also some really weak moments - his Rumble performance, his SummerSlam performance, his 5-minutes-too-long-and-cop-out-ending match against Bray Wyatt at Battleground (I think it was?) - that keep me from putting him on the same level as Cena.

 

If Cena is leaving for awhile, he left after a pretty darn strong 10 months.

[JerryvonKramer]

I haven't really been a fan of many of those matches because Cena seems to be working a strange hybrid of Indy spotfest and WWE main event psychology, compounded by this sense that everything is a bit rehearsed. I'd give it to Brock, but then I've only been watching the PPVs. I'd probably have Reigns above Cena too based on this year. Lower on Kevin Owens.

[rvd356]

I got to disagree that he has been working Indy spotfests this year. He's been working with great grade A Indy talent, and doing it well. I think he just took the biggest complaint about him, his move set and just through it back in everyone that complained about its face. I was one of those people. Before this year I would have had him in my top 30, but add in 2015 and I have him at #15.

 

vs. Seth Rollins Summerslam, vs. Owens Elim. Chamber and vs. Cesaro 06.06.15 RAW were all so awesome and so different. Also loved the 3 Way Dance with Rollins & Brock at the Rumble. Rusev series sucked. Mania match was ok.

 

Basically I loved him in 2003 on Smackdown(minus the Brock Backlash match, which I think sucked despite having 2 of my favorites, the 02.06.03 SD match was much better.). Liked the Triple H Mania 22 match and the Sabu/RVD ECW feud in 2006.

 

Liked the HBK Mania 23 match & RAW 55-minute match in 2007. Just plain didn't like the Umaga LMS match but maybe I need to see it again. However did like the 3 way with Khali & Umaga and the Khali LMS match.

 

More later

[goc]

I'd much rather watch a guy who suffers from having the horror of horrors in a LIMITED MOVESET~! than a guy who throws out goofy contrived looking moves seemingly just so he can get his shit in. That's the new John Cena especially when it comes to the springboard stunner move and his awful Code Red. If he added that shit in to try and appease his critics he's not nearly as smart of a worker as I used to think he was because it's not like it helped his crowd reactions all that much and his matches have suffered for it.

 

I actively disliked the Owens matches and thought they were lame finisher trading spotfests and not even creative spotfests seeing as how they copied so many of the same spots in the rematches. I still don't understand the love for the Rumble 3 way because it suffered from the always present WWE multi man trope of one guy laying on the outside for the majority of the match while 2 guys do a bunch of pointless stuff that you know doesn't matter because the other guy hasn't come back yet. I'd take the majority of the Orton feud from 09 (which seemed to be not very popular as it was going on) over anything Cena has done this year. If I was putting a ballot together then his work this year would be actively moving Cena down my list.

[Loss]

I could have handled the Code Red if it was him busting out a brand new move that got a win. Same for the springboard stunner. If you can only get two counts doing them, what's the point of keeping them in your repertoire? Remember the standing "wow" reaction Bret got for his pin reversal to Piper's sleeper at WM8? Bret doing that would have been the finish and it would have gotten that same reaction.

 

There are also times I've seen Cena win over a tough crowd, but he always loses them again with the Five Knuckle Shuffle leading to them getting up and walking into the FU. That sequence never looks good. I'd probably still have Cena in my top 50, but add to that his inability to hide (or just not caring about) the visible/audible calling of spots and he ends up closer to 50 than 30 where he might have been before.

 

I like the guy and think he takes a lot of shit he doesn't deserve. He works far harder than he has to for a guy with his tenure in his position, and he has adapted to the indy crew when by all rights, they should be the ones adapting to him. That right there is one of many reasons he gets the reactions he does -- most great workers in WWE these days only know how to make themselves look great, so he is always put in the Ric Flair position of getting over his opponent as at his level instead of the Hulk Hogan position of having the guy built up through good booking only to be fed. Anyone who thinks Cena hasn't proven himself as a worker isn't paying attention, but I also think it's easy to overrate him when his flaws are pretty big and are often detrimental to the company's ability to get things over in the desired way.

[Matt D]

He's used the Springboard Stunner to set up the FU at least once. Kind of like the time he beat CM Punk by surprising him with a 'rana first.

[rvd356]

I'd much rather watch a guy who suffers from having the horror of horrors in a LIMITED MOVESET~! than a guy who throws out goofy contrived looking moves seemingly just so he can get his shit in. That's the new John Cena especially when it comes to the springboard stunner move and his awful Code Red. If he added that shit in to try and appease his critics he's not nearly as smart of a worker as I used to think he was because it's not like it helped his crowd reactions all that much and his matches have suffered for it.

 

I actively disliked the Owens matches and thought they were lame finisher trading spotfests and not even creative spotfests seeing as how they copied so many of the same spots in the rematches. I still don't understand the love for the Rumble 3 way because it suffered from the always present WWE multi man trope of one guy laying on the outside for the majority of the match while 2 guys do a bunch of pointless stuff that you know doesn't matter because the other guy hasn't come back yet. I'd take the majority of the Orton feud from 09 (which seemed to be not very popular as it was going on) over anything Cena has done this year. If I was putting a ballot together then his work this year would be actively moving Cena down my list.

#1 thing: I do not like the Springboard Stunner for John Cena. John is a big ass dude, much bigger than Austin was. I am totally cool with Cena using The 'Stunner' as a secondary finisher but it should be given to Dean Ambrose by Austin himself(Or to Punk at Wrestlemania in Dallas next year, in my dreams but still possible! That's my long shot predicition)

 

But I do like how he's included the Ligerbomb, the Code Red is cool once in a while. If he could master the Frankensteiner, that would rule. But I think he would have had to try that back in 2002 for it to be like Scotts or Furnas'. I like the Magnum TA belly 2 belly suplex, definitely love the Emerald Flowsion as a secondary finisher if he could make that stick, because it looks awesome and he's so strong that he could hit it on say, The Undertaker next year at Mania(another hopeful Mania predicition, please don't waste Taker & Cena on Wyatt or Rusev again this year! This past year was like having Hogan(Cena) vs. Haku(I wish Rusev could be traded out for 1989 Haku) and Undertaker vs Jim Neidhart(Wyatt, great tag/trios wrestler, not interesting as a singles). Just for kicks I'd like to see Cena do the 'YOLO' Tope Suicida again like he did to Punk in 2012.

 

I literally just watched Cena/Owens I from EChamber and it's not finisher trading at all. Owens hits The Pop Up Powerbomb early for a 2 count, but this is the #1 wrestler in the world, the #1 guy since the end of 'Attitude'(Mania 17) and the beginning of 'Ruthless Agression' (2002) (I'd put Brock and Taker above him as far as 'greatness' and Rey, Eddy & Benoit based on skill but that's my list) and the #2 World champion of all time.

 

So it should take more than one finisher on Cena unless it's a Vader over Inoki/Vader over Sting kinda of situation. Owens kicks out of 1 AA and reached the ropes on the STF to prove he is a badass veteran from beyond 'The Universe'. At another point Cena flies over another Powerbomb attempt. Owens hits a sick Super Fishermans

Buster and swanton bomb for 2 before Cena comes back with a big Lariat and then gets popped up going for another into the Power bomb. ****1/4

 

I don't think that match was like Austin-Rock 3 or Rock-Cena 2 finisher spam at all. Now the Battleground(3rd match) was definitely overkill. The 2nd match is somewhere in between but I've only watched it once.

 

Well that's the whole point of this project. Both of us will rate him highly for different reasons. You couldn't pay me to watch the 40+ big Cena-Orton matches. The one I did like was the 8 minute Unforgiven 2007 WWE title match where Orton beat up Cenas dad. My rating is based on:

 

2003 Rapper heel/2004 rapper face untill Wrestlemania 20 and then sparingly untill 201/

 

vs. Lesnar 02.06.03

Commentary during A-Train/Lesnar

vs. Eddie Guerrero SD 04.??.03

vs. Eddie Guerrero Parking Lot Brawl

vs. Benoit 04.06.2003

 

vs. Taker Vengeance 2003

vs. Kurt Angle No Mercy 2003(my favorite Cena match untill WM23)

w/ Brock Lesnar v. The Undertaker & Kurt Angle

vs. Rey Mysterio 11.06.03

w/ Benoit vs. Big Show & Brock Lesnar

Team Angle vs. Team Lesnar

vs. Kurt Angle vs. Big Show - No Way Out 04

vs. Big Show - Wrestlemania XX

 

I've got a big blank spot on his US title run all the way untill

 

vs. Kurt Angle - No Way Out 05 - I like this one ok, but no where near the heel performance in 2003 or even the more tweener performance from the 04 version.

 

vs. JBL Wrestlemania 21 - well here you go, Cena with no moves, selling and the. Winning. We've CENUFF

 

vs. JBL - "I Quit" Judgment Day 05 - this was a badass brawl that I didn't expect. Fucking awesome bloodied enraged Cena scares Bradshaw into giving up. Where was this guy when he was tying Batistas shoelaces together to win PPV hardcore matches?

 

vs. Christian vs. Chris Jericho - Vengeance 05. This was a lot of fun, but everyone and myself were pissed it wasn't just Christian-Cena because that was the cool feud

 

vs. Jericho - Summerslam 05 - this is where Cena starts to become a LAME babyface, not helped by the DOA Y2J characters last leg snapping.

 

vs. Kurt Angle - Unforgiven 05 - this is where he sucks it up bad and would sit at a lot of the next 5 or 6 years. He somehow devolved into Rocky Maivia floppy babyface. Where's the big All Japan power moves(Turnbuckle Powerbomb? Apron DDT?) from the first match? Bad bad.

 

vs. Edge - MITB cash in, great storyline, great angle. Unfortunately I never liked any of their 40 matches just like the Orton ones. But it did lead to my favorite Edge World title match vs. Ric Flair TLC V.

 

vs. Triple H - Wrestle mania 22 - I'm an H apologist and this was an H match all the way with the perfect ending. This was the true stamp of approval of him as the #1 guy in the promotion with Big Dave being #2 due to age & injuries.

 

vs. Rob Van Dam - One Night Stand - love this whole PPV so much and this is the perfect ending. Sure it wasn't exactly RVD from say, the Sabu stretcher match, the Scorpio match, or from 2001/2 but damn one of my favorites made it. Classic moment and Cena was perfect. I think only Ric Flair 10 years earlier or Hollywood Hogan 1997 w/ cronies vs. Shane Douglas(or Sabu?) could have done this better.

 

vs. Sabu - ECW & Vengeance Lumberjack match - now this was my favorite Cena stuff since 2003. I loved that Sabu finally got a big run in WWE and killed it here(and even better with Rey, Kurt & Big Show)

 

vs. Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 23 - great match, aww boo he didn't sell the knee oh well. Great ending sequence, classic. His best since the Angle match in 03.

 

Tbc

[Jingus]

I could have handled the Code Red if it was him busting out a brand new move that got a win. Same for the springboard stunner. If you can only get two counts doing them, what's the point of keeping them in your repertoire?

To be fair, that's more a problem with the modern televised American wrestling's finisher-centric style in general than anything wrong with Cena specifically. Practically every guy in the WWE has some "patented maneuvers" which never win the damn match. Why does anyone ever hit any move which isn't their finisher and then try for an inevitably-unsuccessful pinfall? Of course the real reason is "because we've gotta do SOMETHING to kill time and get our shit in before going home". But it's long been a glaring psychological weak spot in WWE Style that the wrestlers are going for ludicrously unlikely pin attempts after hitting non-finisher offense. The best workers can get around that kind of thing (ever notice how rarely Stone Cold actually tried to pin his opponent during his matches, until the final stretch?) but it hurts most guys when the audience is palpably underwhelmed when someone's trying to get a pinfall after hitting a clothesline or bodyslam or some damn thing like that.

 

Ironically, I think this is partly to blame for the WWE's much more workrate-friendly booking in recent years. Back when half the matches routinely had non-clean-pinfall finishes, the crowd tended to be more on their toes because you never knew when the sudden DQ or countout or feet-on-the-ropes, handful-of-tights rollup might end the match without warning. A little like All Japan did back in the 90s, the current WWE has focused so heavily on mostly-clean finishes and Exciting Final Acts in their matches that the audience can often mentally check out of a match (beyond the token Pavlovian popping for particularly big moves or beloved signature spots) until they start trying to hit their finishers. Of course, unlike All Japan, the WWE doesn't have the saving grace of everyone on the roster having half-a-dozen different legit finishers, which leads to its rather video-game-ish psychology of "hit your One Big Move and win".

 

#1 thing: I do not like the Springboard Stunner for John Cena. John is a big ass dude, much bigger than Austin was.

According to their billed heights and weights, John is one inch shorter and one pound lighter than Steve.

 

Personally, I think they look just about identically-sized:

 

 

But I'd say the real problem is that Cena's just way too much of a bulky bodybuilder and doesn't have nearly enough catlike grace to pull the move off successfully. I've seem him hit it nice just once, on Rusev at Wrestlemania, but otherwise it often has that "Johnny Ace trying to hit the Ace Crusher and looking like he just bumped into his opponent and they both fell down in a heap" sort of appearance to it.

 

 

vs. Jericho - Summerslam 05 - this is where Cena starts to become a LAME babyface, not helped by the DOA Y2J characters last leg snapping.

Oh gimme a hell yeah. To this day, I've never met a single person who's been able to explain the "Y2Cheap" joke to me. What the hell is that even supposed to mean? It reeks of being one of those backstage ribs that they obnoxiously insisted on putting it in front of the camera, making all the boys laugh their ass off while the fans just stare in confused silence.

 

vs. Triple H - Wrestle mania 22 - I'm an H apologist and this was an H match all the way with the perfect ending. This was the true stamp of approval of him as the #1 guy in the promotion with Big Dave being #2 due to age & injuries.

The match itself was a fine give-and-take brawl (Trips gave Cena way more of the match than he gave Batista the previous year, when it would've made more sense for HHH to be taking more of an ass-whipping) but I don't agree with the finish. That was a straight-up Klique "Job" all the way, officially putting the other guy over while subconsciously making him look like shit. Cena had barely even started using the STF as a finisher, and Trips does such an abrupt tap-out that you can actually see the fans at ringside reacting in what-the-hell-bro disbelief when HHH submits so quickly. It lets Triple H brag forever "hey, I couldn't have put the guy over ANY harder than I did!" while sabotaging the drama of the finish. Compare it to how Trips fought and clawed and struggled to get out of Benoit's crossface two years prior, ramping up the tension, before finally succumbing to the inevitable and admitting defeat. By giving Cena such a perfunctory "submission victory" without building up to a climactic finale, Triple H made damn sure that everyone's most vividly positive memory from that match was him teasing a DX reunion with the crotch-chop.

[Jingus]

I could have handled the Code Red if it was him busting out a brand new move that got a win. Same for the springboard stunner. If you can only get two counts doing them, what's the point of keeping them in your repertoire?

To be fair, that's more a problem with the modern televised American wrestling's finisher-centric style in general than anything wrong with Cena specifically. Practically every guy in the WWE has some "patented maneuvers" which never win the damn match. Why does anyone ever hit any move which isn't their finisher and then try for an inevitably-unsuccessful pinfall? Of course the real reason is "because we've gotta do SOMETHING to kill time and get our shit in before going home". But it's long been a glaring psychological weak spot in WWE Style that the wrestlers are going for ludicrously unlikely pin attempts after hitting non-finisher offense. The best workers can get around that kind of thing (ever notice how rarely Stone Cold actually tried to pin his opponent during his matches, until the final stretch?) but it hurts most guys when the audience is palpably underwhelmed when someone's trying to get a pinfall after hitting a clothesline or bodyslam or some damn thing like that.

 

Ironically, I think this is partly to blame for the WWE's much more workrate-friendly booking in recent years. Back when half the matches routinely had non-clean-pinfall finishes, the crowd tended to be more on their toes because you never knew when the sudden DQ or countout or feet-on-the-ropes, handful-of-tights rollup might end the match without warning. A little like All Japan did back in the 90s, the current WWE has focused so heavily on mostly-clean finishes and Exciting Final Acts in their matches that the audience can often mentally check out of a match (beyond the token Pavlovian popping for particularly big moves or beloved signature spots) until they start trying to hit their finishers. Of course, unlike All Japan, the WWE doesn't have the saving grace of everyone on the roster having half-a-dozen different legit finishers, which leads to its rather video-game-ish psychology of "hit your One Big Move and win".

 

#1 thing: I do not like the Springboard Stunner for John Cena. John is a big ass dude, much bigger than Austin was.

According to their billed heights and weights, John is one inch shorter and one pound lighter than Steve.

 

Personally, I think they look just about identically-sized:

 

 

But I'd say the real problem is that Cena's just way too much of a bulky bodybuilder and doesn't have nearly enough catlike grace to pull the move off successfully. I've seem him hit it nice just once, on Rusev at Wrestlemania, but otherwise it often has that "Johnny Ace trying to hit the Ace Crusher and looking like he just bumped into his opponent and they both fell down in a heap" sort of appearance to it.

 

 

vs. Jericho - Summerslam 05 - this is where Cena starts to become a LAME babyface, not helped by the DOA Y2J characters last leg snapping.

Oh gimme a hell yeah. To this day, I've never met a single person who's been able to explain the "Y2Cheap" joke to me. What the hell is that even supposed to mean? It reeks of being one of those backstage ribs that they obnoxiously insisted on putting it in front of the camera, making all the boys laugh their ass off while the fans just stare in confused silence.

 

vs. Triple H - Wrestle mania 22 - I'm an H apologist and this was an H match all the way with the perfect ending. This was the true stamp of approval of him as the #1 guy in the promotion with Big Dave being #2 due to age & injuries.

The match itself was a fine give-and-take brawl (Trips gave Cena way more of the match than he gave Batista the previous year, when it would've made more sense for HHH to be taking more of an ass-whipping) but I don't agree with the finish. That was a straight-up Klique "Job" all the way, officially putting the other guy over while subconsciously making him look like shit. Cena had barely even started using the STF as a finisher, and Trips does such an abrupt tap-out that you can actually see the fans at ringside reacting in what-the-hell-bro disbelief when HHH submits so quickly. It lets Triple H brag forever "hey, I couldn't have put the guy over ANY harder than I did!" while sabotaging the drama of the finish. Compare it to how Trips fought and clawed and struggled to get out of Benoit's crossface two years prior, ramping up the tension, before finally succumbing to the inevitable and admitting defeat. By giving Cena such a perfunctory "submission victory" without building up to a climactic finale, Triple H made damn sure that everyone's most vividly positive memory from that match was him teasing a DX reunion with the crotch-chop.

[Benbeeach]

I've seen people make the same argument against Shawn for taking too long to tap to the Ankle Lock. Damned if you do . . .

[Jingus]

I prefer the struggle. This ain't MMA, there's far too many conventionally accepted aspects of wrestling's narrative style which would rarely-if-ever happen in a real fight. You don't see too many Irish whips in UFC either.

[Slasher]

Yeah struggle makes more sense in pro wrestling context. The only time someone should tap out so quickly is if in an Ironman match and you anticipate getting the point back without having a limp body part to deal with. But its not like you get to fight another day in a few months in MMA terms when you are more than likely expected to wrestle the next night and every night after.

[Loss]

The higher the wrestler taking the submission on the card, the longer a submission should take. That's where the drama comes in -- the lower rung guys tap out instantly and the upper card guys are able to hang on a little longer and at least tease the idea that they may be able to do what no man has done before.