John Cena

[Loss]

Jingus, the difference between Cena doing the Code Red and something like Bret always doing the second rope elbow drop and backbreaker and never getting a pin off of those is that they were always entrenched in his offense. Cena added a new move as the elder statesman of the company and kept doing it even though it didn't work. Compare it to Undertaker, who has gotten far more mileage out of the gogoplata at far less risk to his body.

[goc]

And really, Cena had the perfect set up to use those new moves to end a match. He was wrestling guys way beneath him on the totem pole in the Open Challenge period and it wouldn't have looked at all out of place for Stardust or Zach Ryder to lose to the Springboard Stunner or the Code Red and then they would have meant a lot more when he busted them out in a big match later on.

[Jingus]

I see your points, and do (in part) agree. But it's one of those "well, in a perfect world..." criticisms of the WWE which is completely opposite of how they do business. Except for occasionally giving a new submission hold to a guy who only had knockout finishers, the WWE practically never gives a new finish to an established top guy who already has his finishers over. And I don't mean like "Edge keeps spearing people until the move becomes so popular that he starts pinning guys with it", I mean a main eventer debuting a brand new move and immediately beating people with it. It's so rare that I can only remember it happening twice, Undertaker with the Last Ride and Jericho with the Codebreaker. Both those times were extenuating circumstances; the office was scared of piledrivers and Taker had knocked HHH out with a sloppy Tombstone upon his return, and Jericho's old finishers were seen as being too flimsy and weak-looking to still be believable. They're not gonna let Cena complicate things by adding another Patented Finishing Maneuver for the fans to keep track of while the old F-U still works perfectly fine, is completely over and he can still safely hit it on everyone.

[Slasher]

It's actually more common than you think.

 

Seth Rollins- Curb Stomp to Pedigree

Daniel Bryan- Adding the running knee after using the Yes Lock solely.

Rey Mysterio- Stopped doing the West Coast Pop and switching to other flying moves.

Kurt Angle- Angle Lock after the Angle Slam was pretty much devalued significantly.

Big Show- Knockout Punch added.

Wade Barrett- Bullhammer after using Wasteland as finisher.

Dean Ambrose- Switching from a headlock driver to a DDT but keeping the same name for it.

 

There's more but that is just off the top of my head. Thanks to the WWE's desire to manufacture the "epic" match, it is always inevitable that a finisher gets devalued and they have to add a new finisher before ruining that as well.

[Jingus]

I already said, it's different when you're talking about giving a submission to a guy who only has a knockout finisher, or vice versa; the company does tend to prefer their upper-carders be able to do both, if necessary. That knocks out two of your examples. Two more were based around angles: Big Show feuding with a boxer, and Rollins being HHH's hhhenchman. That's also different when they've got a storyline reason for adopting a new move, it's not a guy randomly adding some move from left field without a kayfabe explanation why. And the last three aren't guys adding a new move to an already-established list of finishers, it's changing from one move to another and then no longer using the old one. That's different from what Loss & the others are wishing Cena would do, which is much more like "Misawa still pins people with elbow strikes and tiger drivers, but sometimes he now pins them with emerald fusions instead".

[Slasher]

Fair enough. I guess then all I have to say is that isn't happening. Finishers are the same as catchphrases and gestures, everyone has to have identifiable things for marketing purposes. The other reason being that even though there is obvious tiers or hierarchy of people with pushes vs people without, I think they try to afford everyone that has SOME marketability a certain degree of respect that only a finisher can beat them. Having Cena pin guys off springboard stunners may make for some interesting things but if Stardust falls to that while Kane requires a finisher, Stardust looks worse. Well unless you were a former WCW champion who happens to be black, then the WWE doesn't mind you falling to an extremely delayed pinfall at Wrestlemania that is.

[DR Ackermann]

Thats not a bad thing, though. If Kane is at the top of the card and Stardust is a midcarder at best, then Kane should look better than him.

[rvd356]

 

I could have handled the Code Red if it was him busting out a brand new move that got a win. Same for the springboard stunner. If you can only get two counts doing them, what's the point of keeping them in your repertoire?

To be fair, that's more a problem with the modern televised American wrestling's finisher-centric style in general than anything wrong with Cena specifically. Practically every guy in the WWE has some "patented maneuvers" which never win the damn match. Why does anyone ever hit any move which isn't their finisher and then try for an inevitably-unsuccessful pinfall? Of course the real reason is "because we've gotta do SOMETHING to kill time and get our shit in before going home". But it's long been a glaring psychological weak spot in WWE Style that the wrestlers are going for ludicrously unlikely pin attempts after hitting non-finisher offense. The best workers can get around that kind of thing (ever notice how rarely Stone Cold actually tried to pin his opponent during his matches, until the final stretch?) but it hurts most guys when the audience is palpably underwhelmed when someone's trying to get a pinfall after hitting a clothesline or bodyslam or some damn thing like that.

 

Ironically, I think this is partly to blame for the WWE's much more workrate-friendly booking in recent years. Back when half the matches routinely had non-clean-pinfall finishes, the crowd tended to be more on their toes because you never knew when the sudden DQ or countout or feet-on-the-ropes, handful-of-tights rollup might end the match without warning. A little like All Japan did back in the 90s, the current WWE has focused so heavily on mostly-clean finishes and Exciting Final Acts in their matches that the audience can often mentally check out of a match (beyond the token Pavlovian popping for particularly big moves or beloved signature spots) until they start trying to hit their finishers. Of course, unlike All Japan, the WWE doesn't have the saving grace of everyone on the roster having half-a-dozen different legit finishers, which leads to its rather video-game-ish psychology of "hit your One Big Move and win".

 

#1 thing: I do not like the Springboard Stunner for John Cena. John is a big ass dude, much bigger than Austin was.

According to their billed heights and weights, John is one inch shorter and one pound lighter than Steve.

 

Personally, I think they look just about identically-sized:

 

 

But I'd say the real problem is that Cena's just way too much of a bulky bodybuilder and doesn't have nearly enough catlike grace to pull the move off successfully. I've seem him hit it nice just once, on Rusev at Wrestlemania, but otherwise it often has that "Johnny Ace trying to hit the Ace Crusher and looking like he just bumped into his opponent and they both fell down in a heap" sort of appearance to it.

 

 

vs. Jericho - Summerslam 05 - this is where Cena starts to become a LAME babyface, not helped by the DOA Y2J characters last leg snapping.

Oh gimme a hell yeah. To this day, I've never met a single person who's been able to explain the "Y2Cheap" joke to me. What the hell is that even supposed to mean? It reeks of being one of those backstage ribs that they obnoxiously insisted on putting it in front of the camera, making all the boys laugh their ass off while the fans just stare in confused silence.

 

vs. Triple H - Wrestle mania 22 - I'm an H apologist and this was an H match all the way with the perfect ending. This was the true stamp of approval of him as the #1 guy in the promotion with Big Dave being #2 due to age & injuries.

The match itself was a fine give-and-take brawl (Trips gave Cena way more of the match than he gave Batista the previous year, when it would've made more sense for HHH to be taking more of an ass-whipping) but I don't agree with the finish. That was a straight-up Klique "Job" all the way, officially putting the other guy over while subconsciously making him look like shit. Cena had barely even started using the STF as a finisher, and Trips does such an abrupt tap-out that you can actually see the fans at ringside reacting in what-the-hell-bro disbelief when HHH submits so quickly. It lets Triple H brag forever "hey, I couldn't have put the guy over ANY harder than I did!" while sabotaging the drama of the finish. Compare it to how Trips fought and clawed and struggled to get out of Benoit's crossface two years prior, ramping up the tension, before finally succumbing to the inevitable and admitting defeat. By giving Cena such a perfunctory "submission victory" without building up to a climactic finale, Triple H made damn sure that everyone's most vividly positive memory from that match was him teasing a DX reunion with the crotch-chop.

[rvd356]

Wow I quoted a bunch of shit with no reply. What an idiot. Am working on that lol

[Jingus]

I wondered what the deal was there. A few years ago, I woulda put in some cheap joke about "well, clearly we see the quantifiable content of your contribution", but as I get older I find myself tiring of the ritualistic putdowns that we too often devolve into. Hey... shit happens, maybe you were just drunk and posted wrong, I've done that. Last week I somehow managed to post a reply into the wrong thread at another board, one I've been posting at for like a decade and I know every quirk and kink that their software has to offer. It was just plain ol' human error. (And the same thing happens in wrestling matches, too, which is good thing to remember.)

[rvd356]

Many narcotics I can't name+me posting sometimes turns out weird. Go figure.

 

1) I'm into bodybuilding so when I mean " bigger" than Austin I just meant he's way more shredded. Way bigger. Austins all legs.

 

2) In 2005 after the bad ass I Quit match w/ JBL (check out Cena's gory face, we will never see that again), Cena started flopping around the ring like Bluechipper Rocky Maivia babyface and I haaaate that. I think his work suffered for many years. Check out the Cena-Angle No Mercy 03 vs. Cena-Angle Unforgiven 05 and its night and day. Cena is all focused on hurting Angle with the awesome Turnbuckle Powerbomb, Apron DDT etc and well just incorporating a cool move set into his "street Brawler" gimmick. But in 05 he just seems to be trying so hard to get babyface heat and the matches sucked.

 

But ever since 2011 and the CM Punk feud he's really put both together plus become the veteran ace and Living Legend type all while being better than ever. I do like a lot of matches from 05-11 though don't get me wrong: vs. Batista WM26, vs. Michaels WM23 but strangely did not like the Umaga series like I figured I would. I think I've made a similar post to this lol. But basically I have him at #15 based on half of his career mostly.

[Microstatistics]

Apologies if this comparison has been made somewhere else on the site but he draws an interesting parallel to Misawa (even though their characters are quite different). Booked as the near invincible babyface ace who rarely gets pinned (clean obviously), something that draws the ire of a lot of fans just as I have seen a few people on other sites accuse Misawa of being selfish.

 

Anyways back to Cena, he is definitely a great wrestler. As noted, he has consistently delivered good to great product since 2005 against a variety of opponents including some broomsticks plus he nails the role of the ace like only a handful of people (Misawa, Hashimoto etc.) have. He is also really good at selling (though sometimes he shrugs off offense a bit too easily) especially for someone who is basically superman. He will be in my 40-50 range.

[GOTNW]

I think I've seen some people (Matt specifically) say Cena's last run has diminished him in their eyes. It hasn't in mine and I want to expand on that.

 

It's true that the Owens matches were complete spotfests. I don't think they were great either. But I see them more as a political play than anything. I think Triple H and Cena were behind the guy and having him kick out of more finishers than the Rock did is sending a pretty clear "I won't let you fuck this guy up" message. I also tremendously enjoyed most of his matches from the time period when he was working guys like Neville, Zayn and even guys like Stardust and Zack Ryder whom I've never really cared about. And I think more often than not whenever there was kicking out of finishers in his matches it could be excused for some reason, and it also helps that he didn't do those when he was facing a Ryder, a Stardust or a Kane. What also hepled me not lose my confidence in Cena as a worker was the shockingly strong match he has vs. Rollins at Night Of Champions that was pretty much the antithesis of his work with Owens, and nothing Rollins has done in his entire career has indicated he has the brains to structure a match that well, not to mention we now Cena calls the spots anyway.

 

As for the Rock-Cena matches, I found the first one shockingly good, though I haven't seen it pretty much since it happened. The rematch I loathed, but I do think there is at least some merit in what was done in it. There was the genius callback spot, but also it may have been the first match to break the "rule of three" WWE had been so strict about following in big matches. The problems there are that the rule was kind of broken in the big Undertaker Wrestlemania matches in the previous years and also that the result was a foregone conclusion. And Rock may have gotten injured in the match like he did in every other return match of his so who knows how that affected things as well.

 

 

So, while I do see merit in the criticisms against his work in the last calendar year, I'm still confident in my ranking of him, and the placement i picked.

[JerryvonKramer]

I thought one of the Cena vs Rock matches was a crime against wrestling. Think I gave it a minus rating. Pretty sure it was the rematch.

[Jimmy Redman]

Not even I like the rematch.

[JerryvonKramer]

Didn't know where to put this, and didn't want to keep posting about it in the reaction thread for that show, but as two of the most important voices during this project and two of the characters that have made GWE so memorable, I absolutely want Jimmy and Matt D to somehow come together and make the ultimate odd-couple countdown show. We need to do what it takes to make that happen. We have more than enough people who can handle production.

 

Sorry John Cena, you were the first thread I thought it might be fitting to post that in!

[Bierschwale]

I watched his first title win last night. If anyone but a WWE debutante had pulled off his comeback, it'd be called "fighting spirit at its purest".

[Bierschwale]

Doubled.

[Dylan Waco]

I need to do a countdown with someone.

 

To make this relevant to Cena, I ended up having him really high. And almost had him "you have got to be fucking kidding me" high.

[Grimmas]

I need to do a countdown with someone.

 

To make this relevant to Cena, I ended up having him really high. And almost had him "you have got to be fucking kidding me" high.

Musgrave sent in his ballot... Wrestling Culture baby!

[goc]

I need to do a countdown with someone.

 

To make this relevant to Cena, I ended up having him really high. And almost had him "you have got to be fucking kidding me" high.

He was very close to making my top 10.

[Luchaundead]

 

I need to do a countdown with someone.

 

To make this relevant to Cena, I ended up having him really high. And almost had him "you have got to be fucking kidding me" high.

Musgrave sent in his ballot... Wrestling Culture baby!

 

I second this get a Wrestling Culture GWE show cooking we need to hear it,

 

I really regret not having a place for Cena but he got negative points from me on principal for those matches where he carried wasted up never-hasbeen HBK to 5* gold.

[Jimmy Redman]

All you guys talking about going high on Cena...cute.

 

I watched his first title win last night. If anyone but a WWE debutante had pulled off his comeback, it'd be called "fighting spirit at its purest".

 

The JBL?

 

For what it's worth that match got squished after Angle/Shawn went long and they ended up with the 10 minutes or so they got, which lead to Cena's super short comeback and win.

[Dylan Waco]

No matter how high you rate Cena I won't critique it. The ONLY thing keeping him out of my absolute, tip top tier was duration of quality. In ten years he could be my number 1.

[GOTNW]

If it was a list of favourites I'd vote him #1 on a good day. Can't comment on how much that is influenced by memes. You could argue he deserves credit for managing to create these huge, easily capturable moments that are perfect for his time. It's hard for me to think of a big Cena facial expression that couldn't be used as a reaction GIF. So. Just putting that out there.