Andre the Giant

[Matt D]

My current #9.

[JerryvonKramer]

So many terrible matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

Why is Andre 9th on you list?

 

Have you watched all the MSG and Philly matches? Or are you basing this entirely on the 30 second squashes against Warrior?

[Matt D]

Flair's currently at 8, but he's having a rough morning, so we'll have to see.

[JerryvonKramer]

You can do what you want with your list.

 

Andre is someone who seems to be praised for his best moments but not criticised for his many many many disappointing ones.

[Matt D]

I look forward to you posting that same comment for about 15 other people in my top thirty this morning.

 

(though Blackwell isn't in my top 30. More like around #50)

[Dylan Waco]

I think there is something to the argument that Andre gets a bit of a pass for underwhelming performances, but I would also listen to an argument that a guy his size is almost working against himself so he deserves some slack. I'm not sure I'd buy hat argument mind you, and I doubt very seriously it's an argument Matt would make, but it's one that I wouldn't completely dismiss out of hand.

 

I also think there are a lot of guys with underwhelming performances that you've been gentle or favorable too JVK, including Ted and Bob Orton.

[JerryvonKramer]

It occurred to me recently that he worked exactly to the promotion. In WWF (Vince Sr era) he was slow and lazy, and boring. In Mexco he worked more comedy. In Houston against Race he worked more NWA style. In Japan against Hansen, he got stiff. He was very adaptable, and that should be a plus point for him. And will be in my final estimation.

 

However, that does mean that if the enviroment wasn't very good, he wasn't very good. The matches against Hogan in 1980 really should be better than they are. And Hogan was green, so that's on Andre the smart worker to get a compelling set of matches. The stuff against Studd and Blackjack Mulligan etc. is absolutely terrible. And most of it around EXACTLY THE SAME TIME he was having those matches in NJ. That stuff should count against Andre, and will in my final estimation.

[Matt D]

If you really want me to be specific and name names, I was talking about Matt D putting Andre 9th on his list on the basis that he thinks he worked very well around his limitations in 1989, which seems to go back to a particular Demolition match. You asked, you got.

I might just be moody today, but that's what I had in mind. Matt can do what he wants with his list, and I'm not bothered, but ideally I'd want something a bit more holistic and thoroughgoing when thinking about a workers' placement. I haven't seen every Andre match on tape, but I feel like I've watched my fair share of him. But I haven't really seen much from Matt beyond that late 80s stuff that would suggest a 9th-place rating.

I do actually have something interesting to say about Andre and will do that in that thread.

 

I quite like Jimmy Redman's post earlier.

 

I haven't necessarily written a comprehensive post, sure, but if you go back through my posts over the years, you'll find me high on a number of his matches from a variety of places and eras.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21005-andre-the-giant/?view=findpost&p=5563589

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/21078-1980s-lucha-wrestling-party-1/?view=findpost&p=5566948

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/19444-kamala/?view=findpost&p=5608586

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31399-nwa-classics-247/?view=findpost&p=5683190

 

I'm sure I've written something on the Blackwell match, something on the Hansen match, something on the Piper/Orton/Orndorff tag, and something on Andre the Giant, Franz van Buyten & Ali Bey vs Rusher Kimura, Teranishi & Thunder Sugiyama as well.

 

What I will say is that I suppose, at #9, I think the case for 70s Andre is fairly well discussed by others, driven home by the footage we've gotten in the last few years. The biggest hurdle for Andre is the last five years of his career when he was immobile, and doing things like picking up worst match WONs vs Warrior, and as you said, I've written quite a bit about that.

 

So, the murky area would be 80-85 performances that you find terrible, of which I've admittedly not written much. Andre, like Bockwinkel, is a wrestler that I jump to watch any match of his that I haven't yet seen, however, so it's not like I'm blind to them. If I have time between now and the end of March, I will write up some of those matches. I think it's been made quite evident over the last couple of months that our criteria is different in certain key places, while being very consistent for both of us from wrestler to wrestler and match to match. I've written thousands of words on just what I'm looking for and how I tend to find it. I don't think anyone on PWO wants to see me go into any of that again, frankly.

[JerryvonKramer]

I guess the biggest knock is, even from the 70s when he was at his athethletic peak, is that almost all his best performances where away from his home promotion.

 

He's almost like two different workers, Andre on the road and Andre at home.

 

I even saw an Andre vs. Sheik match from Detroit from the 70s, that I thought was fun, but I reckon pick up those two guys and stick them in MSG and they'd have dogged it.

 

The clearest example is Killer Khan, with whom has a great match in NJ and a couple that are not great back home.

[Matt D]

I guess the biggest knock is, even from the 70s when he was at his athethletic peak, is that almost all his best performances where away from his home promotion.

 

 

I don't necessarily agree, but that's when you should pull my own words about Hansen out against me. Come on.

[JerryvonKramer]

And I am not doing this to be an asshole.

 

But just to point out that Andre doesn't get this sort of scrutiny, and in some other threads we have people dropping Bret Hart out of their top 50s "because he dogged it on house shows".

 

You understand the point I hope.

[JerryvonKramer]

I should also say that we have lots of guys with extremely impressive appearances at MSG from the same time frame. To name a few ... Patterson, Dibiase, Patera, Orton Jr, Adonis, Hansen, Martel ... many others. It wasn't impossible to have a good match in that environment and Killer Khan has a fun one against Backlund.

 

We also get a good few little one-shot cameos of guys "away from home" killing it at MSG: Ricky Steamboat / Jay Youngblood and Dynamite Kid / Tiger Mask both spring to mind. Tiger Mask in particular was arguably more crisp and better on his execution in that one match than in any single NJ match.

 

Andre, however, steadfastly dogged it.

[Matt D]

And I am not doing this to be an asshole.

 

But just to point out that Andre doesn't get this sort of scrutiny, and in some other threads we have people dropping Bret Hart out of their top 50s "because he dogged it on house shows".

 

You understand the point I hope.

I think a slight danger for you here is taking a look at me and people. My criteria is my criteria. I don't punish Bret for that. I do punish Hansen for his AJPW tag team slights because I think they actively hurt a large number of matches (the majority of matches that we have on tape from him in his physical prime) that look great on paper for very selfish reasons. (and even then, he's in my top 25 most likely so it's all relative!).

 

I look for very specific things and I'm not entirely sure, even if I came to agree with you that those matches were bad, and bad due to Andre's laziness, which is not a point I am yet willing to agree to, then that may not necessarily mean he should be bumped down my list, even relative to Hansen, and that could (and probably would) still be entirely consistent with everything else I've said.

[Ricky Jackson]

Totally agree that Backlund-era WWF Andre has a ton of boring as hell matches. He's basically early- 90s Undertaker, working slow against a revolving door of monsters. He was clearly breaking down physically at this time, which makes a difference. His one standout match from the time is a bloody brawl with Hogan from Philly, 3/21/81

[Childs]

Andre is one of the trickiest guys to rank for me. I was legitimately blown away by his best New Japan work--not just the unmatched spectacle of the Hansen match but his world-class selling against Khan and his wonderful character touches against Inoki. I had the same feeling a few months ago with the release of his NWA title challenge against Race. It was like, "Wow, I didn't know Andre could do that." And yet there's little question he wrestled hundreds of boring, throwaway matches for Vince. I have no question he had it in him to be an all-time great wrestler. I'm just not sure he was an all-time great wrestler most of the time. I like his peak performances too much to leave him off. But his volume of great work isn't enough to push him into my top half.

[Jimmy Redman]

I must have absolutely nailed my cherry picking, because I don't think I've yet seen a disappointing Andre match. At least not a disappointing Andre performance.

 

Actually no, I can think of the weird non-co operation "match" with Maeda. That was hideous. And I don't like Andre vs Hogan in 1980 - I reconcile that by knowing that they got it right later on, and I've never much cared for early heel Hogan.

 

So what exactly are we talking here, WWF cards of the early 80s? I might be a good sport and look at them. But at the same time, I'm not sure it would affect my ranking of him all that much. My criteria - vague and nebulous as it is - skews far more towards looking for positives, rather than negatives. Looking at peak, positive attributes, best matches, and trying to answer the question "what is he really capable of?" I get that from him already, and seeing his worst matches won't take that away.

 

In the case of Andre, I'd never knock him for inconsistency, if that's what I found. The man was in a unique situation in regards to his body, and you get the feeling that pretty much anything he managed to do in the ring was the result of a brief victory in a struggle with nature. Especially once he started to break down. It's amazing he was able to work at all. And again, his late WWF career shows just how much he was able to do even when handicapped physically so severely. If he had to mosey through his early 80s WWF career, so be it. I don't think him being mediocre or whatever in one run takes away from him being awesome in almost all of his other runs.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well it's not exactly one run, I'm talking dozens of matches over many years in his home promotion.

[soup23]

The first Mystery Titans match vs. Studd is a good watch. That was a match that was the biggest match on that show and both guys give one of the laziest performances I have ever seen. Studd isn't a good worker but his stuff in the AWA set proved that when motivated, he could be led to something decent. I don't rank matches lower than a DUD and this match with Andre is a DUD. I haven't personally seen a Hogan match on top with less energy and I would even take Warrior beating guys in 90 seconds over what they laid out. Andre is perplexing for me to rank as he universally has some amazing matches that are some of my personal favorites. However, it did seem like a big talking point that we were missing Andre's physical peak and that could have happened in the early 70's but he was still pretty limber in the Titans run of WWWF stuff and it has been almost universally disappointing when I have been watching in correlation to the guys. I really wish some of his Mid-Atlantic stuff from the early 80's would have survived as that would have been a great point of comparison on his effort level.

[Matt D]

Just watched and really liked the 06/05/1982 Mulligan match.

I imagine that the rematch isn't as good, but this made me actively want to seek it out. Great way to build interest for the next match. The opening four minutes were very back and forth, with Mulligan's toughness coming to play in a fairly compelling way, and the remainder of the match was very smartly centered around the question of whether or not the claw could be the weapon to take out Andre, with Andre really getting it over, both by going out of his way to counter it, breaking his bear hug to put on a top wrist lock, trying to get the glove off, working over the hand at times, Mulligan teasing it over and over again, and then, them prefacing it finally getting locked on for the finish on the outside through Mulligan opportunistically reversing Andre's corner butt smashes with it to the trap, which downed him and then made him stagger big when he finally started to fight his way back. Vince, here, did an excellent job selling the intrigue of it. If that could do this much damage to Andre, what would happen when Mulligan got it on the temples?

Liked it a lot.

-Mulligan bouncing around with Blassie. Mulligan takes it right to Andre. Andre headbutts back. Mulligan's keeping on him though, and Andre punches back but has to duck. Andre's really giving for him early. But all he had to do is get his hands on him and he does with two headbutts, holding the hair, no three.

-Walks with him for #4, holding on. Mulligan punches back.Goes for the chin. Andre recoils back repeatedly. Goes for the claw but Andre blocks it. Headbutt.

-Wrenches the arm. (counter to the claw. REALLY working it, putting it in deep. They're so big that it makes for a good visual).

Mulligan to the face, but Andre doesn't let go. Not til he gets punched. really back and forth here. Andre kicks back but Mulligan punches back. Finally Andre settles into a bear hug.

Mulligan teasing the claw, bit of an inversion here. HA! Andre grabs it into a top wrist lock. Just pressing down upon him.

Headbutt down. Mulligan into ropes and Andre body presses.

-Mulligan punches back. Teases claw. Hands up. Andre knee to stomach. Kick. Mulligan fires back. But then Andre catches his foot!

-Points to crowd and chops him in the face.Headbutt.

-Mulligan bumps on a back body drop, and then Andre misses the splash. Solid 4 minute opening.

-Mulligan teasing Claw again. But Andre blocks it again. Andre slams his hand into the turnbuckle. WRENCHES arm around the top rope. And just hammers on it. Trying to get glove off.

-Mulligan punches back, but Andre gets him in the corner and presses back to pops. Mulligan teasing claw again and this time, for the first time, gets it to the trap. Mulligan couldn't get it otherwise so he was opportunistic. It makes sense that this is his first bit of control since they spent the whole match building to it.

-Andre goes down to one knee, Vince uses it to build up the Claw to the temple by using Andre's going down as an example.

-Andre not necessarily working this as much as he could, but he's so big that him just being down and being in peril has meaning to this crowd and he's milking that.

-Mulligan has him down. goes for a stomp but Andre shoves him off. Mulligan goes for the claw to the temple, but Andre kills him with a chop. They repeat this twice. Headbutt and Andre is selling bit, trying to recover from the damage. Still using headbutts to keep distance and stagger Mulligan. Andre misses the big boot and Mulligan FINALLY gets the claw. Both of them go flying over the top though. Into the post. And Mulligan puts the claw on Andre for the countout.

Andre throws tons of chairs in to get his heat back.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrhfr_andre-the-giant-vs-blackjack-mulligan_sport

[JerryvonKramer]

The first Mystery Titans match vs. Studd is a good watch. That was a match that was the biggest match on that show and both guys give one of the laziest performances I have ever seen. Studd isn't a good worker but his stuff in the AWA set proved that when motivated, he could be led to something decent. I don't rank matches lower than a DUD and this match with Andre is a DUD. I haven't personally seen a Hogan match on top with less energy and I would even take Warrior beating guys in 90 seconds over what they laid out. Andre is perplexing for me to rank as he universally has some amazing matches that are some of my personal favorites. However, it did seem like a big talking point that we were missing Andre's physical peak and that could have happened in the early 70's but he was still pretty limber in the Titans run of WWWF stuff and it has been almost universally disappointing when I have been watching in correlation to the guys. I really wish some of his Mid-Atlantic stuff from the early 80's would have survived as that would have been a great point of comparison on his effort level.

I believe this was the match in which he famously fell asleep in the ring, if I'm not mistaken, Kelly?

[Ricky Jackson]

No, that supposedly happened in a match between the two of them in Philly around the same time

[goc]

Might be my favorite guy to watch in squash matches. Been watching a few Andre squash matches on youtube today and this is my favorite one.

 

[Timbo Slice]

Man alive. I did that great Andre show a few months back and loved what I watched, and I think he has some high points that are truly untouchable. He's gonna be on my list, but I don't know how high I can put him. Off the top of my head, it would be in the 50-100 range.

[Matt D]

 

Just watched and really liked the 06/05/1982 Mulligan match.

I imagine that the rematch isn't as good, but this made me actively want to seek it out. Great way to build interest for the next match. The opening four minutes were very back and forth, with Mulligan's toughness coming to play in a fairly compelling way, and the remainder of the match was very smartly centered around the question of whether or not the claw could be the weapon to take out Andre, with Andre really getting it over, both by going out of his way to counter it, breaking his bear hug to put on a top wrist lock, trying to get the glove off, working over the hand at times, Mulligan teasing it over and over again, and then, them prefacing it finally getting locked on for the finish on the outside through Mulligan opportunistically reversing Andre's corner butt smashes with it to the trap, which downed him and then made him stagger big when he finally started to fight his way back. Vince, here, did an excellent job selling the intrigue of it. If that could do this much damage to Andre, what would happen when Mulligan got it on the temples?

Liked it a lot.

-Mulligan bouncing around with Blassie. Mulligan takes it right to Andre. Andre headbutts back. Mulligan's keeping on him though, and Andre punches back but has to duck. Andre's really giving for him early. But all he had to do is get his hands on him and he does with two headbutts, holding the hair, no three.

-Walks with him for #4, holding on. Mulligan punches back.Goes for the chin. Andre recoils back repeatedly. Goes for the claw but Andre blocks it. Headbutt.

-Wrenches the arm. (counter to the claw. REALLY working it, putting it in deep. They're so big that it makes for a good visual).

Mulligan to the face, but Andre doesn't let go. Not til he gets punched. really back and forth here. Andre kicks back but Mulligan punches back. Finally Andre settles into a bear hug.

Mulligan teasing the claw, bit of an inversion here. HA! Andre grabs it into a top wrist lock. Just pressing down upon him.

Headbutt down. Mulligan into ropes and Andre body presses.

-Mulligan punches back. Teases claw. Hands up. Andre knee to stomach. Kick. Mulligan fires back. But then Andre catches his foot!

-Points to crowd and chops him in the face.Headbutt.

-Mulligan bumps on a back body drop, and then Andre misses the splash. Solid 4 minute opening.

-Mulligan teasing Claw again. But Andre blocks it again. Andre slams his hand into the turnbuckle. WRENCHES arm around the top rope. And just hammers on it. Trying to get glove off.

-Mulligan punches back, but Andre gets him in the corner and presses back to pops. Mulligan teasing claw again and this time, for the first time, gets it to the trap. Mulligan couldn't get it otherwise so he was opportunistic. It makes sense that this is his first bit of control since they spent the whole match building to it.

-Andre goes down to one knee, Vince uses it to build up the Claw to the temple by using Andre's going down as an example.

-Andre not necessarily working this as much as he could, but he's so big that him just being down and being in peril has meaning to this crowd and he's milking that.

-Mulligan has him down. goes for a stomp but Andre shoves him off. Mulligan goes for the claw to the temple, but Andre kills him with a chop. They repeat this twice. Headbutt and Andre is selling bit, trying to recover from the damage. Still using headbutts to keep distance and stagger Mulligan. Andre misses the big boot and Mulligan FINALLY gets the claw. Both of them go flying over the top though. Into the post. And Mulligan puts the claw on Andre for the countout.

Andre throws tons of chairs in to get his heat back.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrhfr_andre-the-giant-vs-blackjack-mulligan_sport

 

Bumping this, because I was genuine. I'll take up another "terrible Andre match" challenge if someone really feels strongly about giving me one, but it'd probably be more of the same.