Dynamite Kid

[El-P]

25 minutes ago, elliott said:

Is this a positive or negative overall for wrestling?

I expected this question.  Well, it is what it is. Whether people like it or not it entirely a matter of subjective taste, but there is a global historical evolution of pro-wrestling outside of the influence of just one guy, and it always went toward more, not less. Dynamite Kid is just a cog in the machine, but a cog that just was 10, 20, 30 years in advance, in that way he was so influential because it's like he showed how things would be eventually. Visionary for sure, not in a theorical (or even messianic ! ) way, but simply by how he worked and how his work transcended his own era.

Now, if I consider my own enjoyment of pro-wrestling and how I have watched more great pro-wrestling watching current stuff in the last 5 years, of course I'll say it's positive. But honestly if Dynamite doesn't happen, someone else does it (and really he wasn't the only one either moving things along, of course, he's just extremely striking). I know the comparison won't float well with some if they can't stand Dynamite, but honestly at the same time, Jaguar Yokota strikes me as the same kind of super fast, super intense, pushing the pace and spots and attitude toward what modern pro-wrestling will be.

To me the question is less "Is it positive or negative", because the "negative" answer reeks of a melancholic, almost sentimental, feel about the past that I have no time for (which is an attitude that isn't restricted to pro-wrestling for me, it covers a lot of ground), than "Why and how did things evolved that way ?", without any sense of judging, because again, it is what it is. I won't blame anyone who doesn't connect to today's mostly spread style of pro-wrestling since for a long time I did not either, but then again to me there's also more joy in trying to get what may be great about it even if it's completely different than what you were used too. Case in point, I probably never been more satisfied as a pro-wrestling fan than in those last past few years. 

[elliott]

How much importance are you putting on influence when you make your list?

[El-P]

3 minutes ago, elliott said:

How much importance are you putting on influence when you make your list?

Hum... That's a really good question. I guess where I will end up putting Dynamite Kid will be a good answer. I guess if you have the influence but also the great output (and I don't think Dynamite has that great of an output when all it's said and done), chances are you're gonna get pretty high. But simply being influential won't matter that much, I guess (then again...). I'm asking myself a bunch of questions and not answering much, sorry ! 

[elliott]

You're good! Its good to work through the processes becasue there's a million things to consider and you went from an old curmudgeon like a lot of us last time to a huge fan of new stuff so its interesting to see your thoughts. I got another one for you about a really different wrestler but one that is also in some ways kind of similar...

https://forums.prowrestlingonly.com/topic/29664-sabu/?do=findComment&comment=5965439

 

[ohtani's jacket]

5 hours ago, elliott said:

I'm excited to watch that one. Watching this one now and its ok. OJ, I know you're a big fan of the Marty Jones match (or you were at one point), when was the last time you watched the Mark Rocco match. 

I was never a big fan of the Rocco matches largely because of how they paled in comparison to the Rocco/Jones matches, though to be fair Rocco and Jones' matches in the early 80s didn't hold a candle to their 70s work. I liked that Mr. Wrestling match. There was a bit of a lull towards the end, but it was pretty neat. Mr. Wrestling looked like the more impressive wrestler even with the whole veteran vs. youngster thing they had going on. You will probably want to check out Dynamite's IWE stuff as well. 

[ohtani's jacket]

There' are some interesting looking Dynamite Kid matches in the ITV archives -- vs. Breaks, Grey, Ken Joyce, Sid Cooper, and Jean Corne (!) I've said it before, but I wish Dynamite had been around more in that early 80s era where Rocco, Jones, Finlay, Murphy & Myers were all kicking out great matches. 

[MoS]

I don't think the Dynamite backlash was as much about the workrate/MOVEZ criticism as much as it was about his sloppy execution in the TM matches. He and Tiger Mask were so fast, so wiry, that they would end up missing half their moves. In that respect, while DK is certainly influential, I am not sure how his work would look next to modern wrestlers like Rey Fenix, who try crazy moves and actually hit them. I prefer the Bulldog tags to his junior heavyweight work, but I have always appreciated how grumpy and pissed off he would look even missing moves. He had a lot of personality and that always helps.

[fxnj]

I kind of wonder why it is that a lot of the crowd that gives a pass to Sabu's sloppiness for adding to chaotic ECW atmosphere of his matches also dig into TM/DK for sloppiness in their matches. When I go back to watch their series, it feels like a similar principle applies there where even if the matches have been topped endlessly by guys doing more complex moves with more interesting psychology behind them, the sloppiness and botches gives a rawness to the whole thing that you don't really get with newer matches. Not saying they're classics, but they have a car crash appeal knowing how brutal that style was on both guys.

[MoS]

I don't plan on ranking Sabu, but I would say the answer probably is because Sabu and ECW would mostly do chaotic out-of-control fights which were very much marketed that way; where the sloppiness was not just acceptable but probably needed to be a part of it. I don't think the DK-TM matches were ever sold or hyped that way: I could be wrong, but they were sold like amazing high-flying technical marvels, where precision and smoothness becomes more important. I guess another reason would be that few Sabu defenders would consider ranking him in their top 100 GWE while most DK fans will probably want to rank him very high.

[Microstatistics]

The more I watch of him, the more I am perplexed that he was once painted as a purely workrate guy. His heel act was great and worked in nearly every setting, from NJPW to WoS to Portland. The Fujinami 2/5/1980 and Marty Jones 1/19/1983 matches are major career highlights.

 

[club]

Dynamite will likely make the back half of my list somewhere. Matches with Jones, Breaks, Rocco, Hara, Fujinami, Rose and Dennison are all great. The Tiger Mask stuff not so much. WWF not so much. Japan and Portland I'm looking forward to.