Tomohiro Ishii

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[moazzam23]

He's been fantastic in the last couple of years but I think the earliest Ishii match I've seen was from 2011. What are some of his best pre-New Japan resurgence matches?

[tim]

How far does being the best wrestler in the world for one year get you?

 

Also had a very, very strong year last year. I remember really liking some of his 2009 matches. Between 2009 and 2013 I haven't seen anything, nor anything pre-2009. But still, Ishii's 2014 has to mean a lot. Also a guy who has a strong chance of having a much better case when the ballots are due than he does now.

[BillThompson]

I don't think Ishii's ever been the best wrestler in the world, especially not in a 2014 where Timothy Thatcher is wrestling.

[Grimmas]

How far does being the best wrestler in the world for one year get you?

 

Also had a very, very strong year last year. I remember really liking some of his 2009 matches. Between 2009 and 2013 I haven't seen anything, nor anything pre-2009. But still, Ishii's 2014 has to mean a lot. Also a guy who has a strong chance of having a much better case when the ballots are due than he does now.

Well he will have 2015 as well, to help his case.

 

I don't see myself voting for him, unless 2015 is out of this world. I don't think he's the best wrestler of 2014, either. Not even the best New Japan guy.

[WingedEagle]

He's been excellent the last couple of years. I think I need to see a whole lot of stellar performances before the current NJ run for him to make the list, but he's someone I'm more than willing to seek out gems to try and squeeze him in.

[Shining Wiz]

This will be interesting. He's never been bad that I've seen, but the 2013-2014 run is really, really, really good. Question becomes whether a relatively short run of fantastic matches is enough to take a solid undercard performer and jump him to all time status. Also makes an interesting arguing point for the number of guys who were obviously quite skilled but never given the chance Ishii has been to really stand out.

[Ditch]

Not nearly enough quality work before 2013. Like, he'd make top 100 from 2000 and later, but all-time? Nooooo. And I love Ishii a whole lot.

[Timbo Slice]

Not enough yet. He's been good in the last 18 months or so, but before then? Not really.

[Karl]

His 2014 run is absolutely my favourite of the year thus far and loved what he was doing in '13 also, but not seen enough beyond that yet to suggest that a top 100 spot.

[GOTNW]

Has a case for being the best japanese (if not global) worker the last few years but the Wataru Inoue miracle carry jobs will have earned him a spot on my list.

[W2BTD]

I will say this. Anybody who pushes for Roman Reigns but dismisses Ishii based on a short resume is being hypocritical. I don't even know if anyone specific is doing this, but I bring this up because the Reigns thread seems to have a "he could sneak on!" tone to it, while this thread is pretty much dismissive. Even if you think Reigns has peaked high enough to warrant inclusion or even a discussion of inclusion (crazy talk imo, but that's the chatter), Ishii peaked much much higher and peaked longer, and has an entire careers worth of other decent work to consider (young boy stuff in WAR, Z1 tags with Takaiwa, NJPW tags with Iizuka, Honma, Yano, Don Fujii, etc) while Reigns has 18 months as the third wheel of the Shield being carried by two other guys.

 

Neither guy should realistically be considered when you are talking about the scope of the Top 100 of all time, but at least Ishii's short peak included year of being considered best in the world by more than a few people (not me, fwiw), and he has a long career that goes back to the mid 90's which probably has a bunch of forgotten stuff that would look better than a lot of us might assume it would on a rewatch. Reigns has...bad FCW matches as a super green guy dating back to 2010?

 

I wouldn't vote for him, but I could see Ishii landing on the bottom quarter of a list or two based on the last few years, especially from younger guys with a smaller frame of reference.

[W2BTD]

On the topic of short peak guys.

 

Do super high peaks like Ishii's last three years or so have more value to you than an entire career of really good work, like a Koko Ware or Austin Aries or Psicosis or Susumu Yokosuka or whoever?

[benjaminkicks]

On the topic of short peak guys.

 

Do super high peaks like Ishii's last three years or so have more value to you than an entire career of really good work, like a Koko Ware or Austin Aries or Psicosis or Susumu Yokosuka or whoever?

I try not to fall on either side of the "peak vs. career" thing, because I think it's a case by case basis depending on the wrestler. That said, I do tend to value longevity in a wrestler a lot, because that simply means a higher quantity of quality work.

 

Pretty much everyone I think will be making my list at this point has about at least 8 or so years of quality work that I enjoy.

[Danish Dynamite]

Top 100 of ALL time??? Absolutely not yet. Definetely might have a legit shot in 10 years time, or whenever the next poll will be, if he keeps up his current level. But I absolutely can't see that happening yet. I do however also agree with W2BTD that the same has to go for Roman Reigns. I would put Ishii ahead of Reigns so far.

[Muss]

Since the poll in 2016, Ishii has maintained his pace as one of the best workers on New Japans roster and a contender for the best wrestler in the G1 Climax every year. He also had several series with the top guys on NJPW’s roster where he was able to shine in a main event context. For those who have not been watching New Japan in the last decade, here is a non-comprehensive guide of some of Ishii’s best matches from 2016-2021 with MOTYC highlighted in bold:

Tomohiro Ishii vs Katsuyori Shibata 1/4/2016

Tomohiro Ishii vs Katsuyori Shibata 2/11/2016

Tomohiro Ishii vs Tetsuya Naito 5/3/2016

Tomohiro Ishii vs Kazuchika Okada 8/6/2016

Tomohiro Ishii vs Kenny Omega 3/12/2017

Tomohiro Ishii vs Katsuyori Shibata 3/19/2017

Tomohiro Ishii vs Kenny Omega 5/3/2017

Tomohiro Ishii vs Kenny Omega 7/2/2017

Tomohiro Ishii vs Hiroshi Tanahashi 8/6/2017

Tomohiro Ishii vs Tetsuya Naito 10/9/2017

Tomohiro Ishii vs Zach Sabre Jr (Rev Pro) 4/6/2018

Tomohiro Ishii vs Tetsuya Naito 7/19/2018

Tomohiro Ishii vs Hirooki Goto 7/21/2018

Tomohiro Ishii vs Kota Ibushi 7/28/2018

Tomohiro Ishii vs Kenny Omega 8/4/2018

Tomohiro Ishii & Will Ospreay vs Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi 9/7/2018

Tomohiro Ishi & Kazuchika Okada vs Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi 9/30/2019

Tomohiro Ishii vs Yuji Nagata 3/8/2019

Tomohiro Ishii vs Jay White 7/15/2019

Tomohiro Ishii vs Juice Robinson 7/28/2019

Tomohiro Ishii vs Shingo Takagi 8/8/2019

Tomohiro Ishii vs Shingo Takagi 2/20/2020

Ishii’s age does appear to be getting to him as NJPW’s style transitions to something that is less serious and more focused on angles, but he is still able to have a great match when given the time and attention. He was arguably the best opponent of several of New Japan’s stars during their peak run from 2012-2019, including Shibata, Omega, Goto, and Makabe. A great upper-mid card workhorse who was able to beat anyone, and be beaten by anyone over the course of nearly a decade. 

[Boss Rock]

Ishii is definitely a lock for me at this point. He's been a top 10 candidate for BITW for close to a decade now and is almost always the MVP of the G1. His inconsistent booking doesn't always give him a ton to do outside of tournaments, but it's almost impossible for him to have a bad singles match. And he's not just great in hard-hitting matches against guys like Suzuki, Shingo, Goto, or Shibata. He's also been a terrific underdog face against more heavily pushed guys like Jay and Kenny. Great offense but underrated seller as well. Fighting spirit no-sell moments are extremely difficult to pull off, but he's as believable as possible when he does it.

[Jmare007]

Is it safe to say Ishii is the heir to the Hansen method of wrestling, were a wrestler is so fucking good at the stuff he knows how to do that he doesn't need to change much of his approach no matter who his opponent is because it's going to translate in a dope match anyway?

[Makai Club #1]

Unlike Hansen, Ishii reguarly runs his own match into the ground. In those G1 runs that everyone is fond of, he's just as likely to have the dullest match on the show. Ishii is also best when someone else is leading the match otherwise it just turns into a match with elbow exchanges which is just lazy by this point. Unless he is against someone like Jay White who'll do something unique with that idea (dropping immediately to the ground on strike one instead of playing the macho tough man), he can get tedious to watch. That's a criticisim of him. 

Now despite all that, he does have a large list of great matches against a variety of opponents. The G1 Shibata match is a signature match of the Bushiroad Era that constantly gets named as a match to watch., there was a series with Honma that's mostly great and he had on-off chemistry with Tetsuya Naito, but when they were on, the matches were so good. That's three opponents that you could get 10-15 good-great matches out of. Then you bring up the 2016 Okada match, the Kenny Omega 04/08/2018 match and the match where he pins Tanahashi and you got a great match playlist. 

I contridicted myself many times in this post.Ha! Ishii is someone that works upon reflection. However, I'm just sick of current Ishii which sours my opinion of him slightly. He'll make my top 100. I'm not sure if he'll go below the 50 mark though. 

[Jetlag]

People should check out Ishiis early work in promotions like WAR, DDT, CAPTURE, IWA Japan, even Michinoku Pro. It's more interesting than the groove he got into in 2010s New Japan.

[Jmare007]

Also, if they want a "miracle worker" case just watch his feud with Wataru Inoue. To this day I can't believe Ishii had me so damn invested in a nothing wrestler like Inoue.

[strobogo]

2 hours ago, Makai Club #1 said:

Unlike Hansen, Ishii reguarly runs his own match into the ground. In those G1 runs that everyone is fond of, he's just as likely to have the dullest match on the show. Ishii is also best when someone else is leading the match otherwise it just turns into a match with elbow exchanges which is just lazy by this point. Unless he is against someone like Jay White who'll do something unique with that idea (dropping immediately to the ground on strike one instead of playing the macho tough man), he can get tedious to watch. That's a criticisim of him. 

Now despite all that, he does have a large list of great matches against a variety of opponents. The G1 Shibata match is a signature match of the Bushiroad Era that constantly gets named as a match to watch., there was a series with Honma that's mostly great and he had on-off chemistry with Tetsuya Naito, but when they were on, the matches were so good. That's three opponents that you could get 10-15 good-great matches out of. Then you bring up the 2016 Okada match, the Kenny Omega 04/08/2018 match and the match where he pins Tanahashi and you got a great match playlist. 

I contridicted myself many times in this post.Ha! Ishii is someone that works upon reflection. However, I'm just sick of current Ishii which sours my opinion of him slightly. He'll make my top 100. I'm not sure if he'll go below the 50 mark though. 

 

I can't think of any year in the past 7-8 years where Ishii had the most boring match on any given G1 night unless it was in a filler tag. Everyone has some rest days and light matches during the G1, but even Ishii's breather matches tend to be pretty enjoyable even against dudes I don't particularly enjoy watching like a Yano or Tama Tonga. I understand your critique of Ishii here, but I think it's really as much of a NJ/Gedo's booking issue as it is with him specifically because everyone on the roster goes through that due to the amount of rematches Gedo runs. Especially in the last 2-3 years. I feel like White/Tana has had to have happened 8 times in the last 2 years.

 

I think last year was the first time in probably 5-6 years where Ishii wasn't my G1 MVP (which went to Jay White, who I don't think was in the best matches but was the best performer through the duration. Anyway, Ishii is a delight and I can always rely on him to give me 5-10 hype as hell matches during the year.

[Clayton Jones]

Re Jetlag's post, yeah absolutely. Ishii isn't one of those grumpy old men workers who needed some salt and pepper to get good. I noticed him and Hidaka at the same time in Michinoku Pro in a period when most of the roster was a wasteland and they still were managing to get his good matches out of most everyone.

[Makai Club #1]

22 minutes ago, strobogo said:

 

I can't think of any year in the past 7-8 years where Ishii had the most boring match on any given G1 night unless it was in a filler tag. Everyone has some rest days and light matches during the G1, but even Ishii's breather matches tend to be pretty enjoyable even against dudes I don't particularly enjoy watching like a Yano or Tama Tonga. I understand your critique of Ishii here, but I think it's really as much of a NJ/Gedo's booking issue as it is with him specifically because everyone on the roster goes through that due to the amount of rematches Gedo runs. Especially in the last 2-3 years. I feel like White/Tana has had to have happened 8 times in the last 2 years.

 

I think last year was the first time in probably 5-6 years where Ishii wasn't my G1 MVP (which went to Jay White, who I don't think was in the best matches but was the best performer through the duration. Anyway, Ishii is a delight and I can always rely on him to give me 5-10 hype as hell matches during the year.

It's not the opponents that stagnent in this case, although that's a real issue. The matches themselves go through the same spot like it's 2013 and everyone is first exposed to it. Evolve a it, is all I'm really asking. Ishii is a midcarder so perhaps that's asking too much. There has been a lot of matches where I'm like "oh here we go with this again". It's insanely fustrating at times because Ishii can do more. I know this is a criticsim that's easy the point out as it's currently on-going and I'm watching mostly every match of his. 

[strobogo]

4 minutes ago, Makai Club #1 said:

It's not the opponents that stagnent in this case, although that's a real issue. The matches themselves go through the same spot like it's 2013 and everyone is first exposed to it. Evolve a it, is all I'm really asking. Ishii is a midcarder so perhaps that's asking too much. There has been a lot of matches where I'm like "oh here we go with this again". It's insanely fustrating at times because Ishii can do more. I know this is a criticsim that's easy the point out as it's currently on-going and I'm watching mostly every match of his. 

I had the same criticism of him at one point but it's like....shit that's his thing, it's gonna happen, and it's not as egregious as guys who rerun intricate spots.