Chris Benoit

[ohtani's jacket]

The 4/91 match was a big step up from their 1990 match I watched. People will say that it wasn't worked the way a mask vs. mask match should be worked, but if you got to an Indian restaurant in Japan, or an Italian restaurant or a Mexican restaurant, it's not going to taste the way it's supposed to. The problem was that it wasn't a particularly dramatic match by *juniors* standards as opposed to not going to the places where a masks match should go. Offensively, it was much better than the 1990 bout and the excitement level was around a third.

[jdw]

Jingus has a good point in #73. Benoit, among others, was pretty much the antithesis of the NWO and Sting-Lex-Steiners-Piper-Savage-DDP guys in his Monday Night Wars time with WCW, and more than a bit of the antithesis of the Austin-Rock-Undertaker-Foley-Trip-Vince etc guys of the WWE in his early years there. Not that plenty of us didn't like Austin or Rock (from NOD on) or Foley or Mr. McMahon. But Benoit was a contrast to that.

 

I also think that it's always worthwhile to not that there are plenty of ways to have a good match, or an effective match. Hogan doesn't have to work like Flair, nor Flair like Hogan, while Misawa and Kawada can work different from them. Benoit was another way to work. It was effective or good depending on how one wants to slice it.

[Grimmas]

I really think Benoit's influence on the business is a root for a lot of people's hate of modern wrestling. The go-go-go style, no selling in favour of more spots, all action and no substance.

 

I think if more current wrestlers followed Lawler or Bret instead of Benoit the wrestling world would be a lot more enjoyable to a huge segment of the audience.

 

For example, I doubt PWG would exist without Benoit.

[thebrainfollower]

JDW and I concur totally on this. I just cannot rewatch Benoit but I did see all his stuff in WCW and WWF/E as it happened so I am reasonably sure as to my views on his work.

 

I think being the opposite of what was pushed as the main event everywhere he went is a big part of Benoit's appeal at the time to smart fans.

[Loss]

I think it's reductive to say Benoit didn't sell or was exclusively about action. It also creates a false paradigm between Benoit and Lawler, as if wrestling can only be full of Benoits or full of Lawlers.

[Grimmas]

I think it's reductive to say Benoit didn't sell or was exclusively about action. It also creates a false paradigm between Benoit and Lawler, as if wrestling can only be full of Benoits or full of Lawlers.

Yeah, that's true.

 

I didn't mean to say that is all Benoit was about, just that is kind of what he spawned and some of the things he favoured.

 

There is a lot of nuisance out there and really Benoit is not the extreme like say Davey Richards is. Neither is Lawler the extreme other end.

 

Wrestling is at it's best when there is a mix of great action and great storytelling and selling.

[ohtani's jacket]

So, it occurred to me that I've never watched the Liger/Pegasus Kid series in its entirety and I've been kind of wanting to watch Liger of late, whom I've been down on the past few years. The version of 8/19/90 I watched was JIP and showed the pair going through the motions of a finishing stretch. The excitement level for me barely rose above zero. There's something wrong w/ Benoit wearing a mask. It didn't fit Owen either. They seem too jacked up to wear one. Few luchadores had the builds they did and the ones that did looked stupid in a mask as well except for maybe Scorpio Jr. Benoit seems way too big for Liger as well even though Yamada was also juicing. Weird match-up. I'll give a point to the robot criticism since he was wrestling that way here and I remember him doing the same against the Villanos in his UWA run.

 

i watched a full length version of this with commentary from Taz and Michael Cole. A more rounded juniors match with the build included, but they drop shit and move to the next sequence with no concern for psychology (in the old parlance.) The internet, surprisingly, doesn't have that many Liger/Benoit matches floating about, so I guess I won't be watching the series in full.

[stomperspc]

I really think Benoit's influence on the business is a root for a lot of people's hate of modern wrestling. The go-go-go style, no selling in favour of more spots, all action and no substance.

 

I think if more current wrestlers followed Lawler or Bret instead of Benoit the wrestling world would be a lot more enjoyable to a huge segment of the audience.

 

For example, I doubt PWG would exist without Benoit.

 

The stuff that is imitated the most tends to be the stuff that involves the least amount of time/effort/precision to replicate. Guys see Benoit get over and think if they replicate his high impact offense style (or bring it to the next level) that can be their ticket. They overlook - consciously or otherwise - that Benoit's offense was so impressive at the time because it was a true hybrid style and totally different from what most other pushed guys did during the same period in the US. He also could sell and draw sympathy and had an innate intensity that is not so easily replicated. So while I think Benoit did influence a lot of wrestlers in the past 15 years, it is not necessarily his fault that some wrestlers focused on one area (cool offense) while ignoring the contextual and other elements that made Benoit "work".

 

Benoit is not all that different in that way than Misawa/Kobashi/ect. The fact that those guys influenced a whole generation of workers in a negative way shouldn't really be held against them. It is not their fault that wrestlers felt they too could get over with head dropping and a constant escalation of offense since those guys did, while choosing to ignore all the other things that went into making that era of All Japan work.

[ohtani's jacket]

I couldn't find any more Liger matches so I ended up watching the 1993 Top of the Super Juniors final against El Samurai. It was a pretty good match actually. Better than any of the Liger bouts. I needed to go out, but I was keen to see the finish and toyed with being late, which has to be the sign of a good match. Benoit's selling and transitions sucked, and I thought El Samurai was easily the better worker, but like Dynamite Kid, Benoit brought the offense like few others. Good match in spite of Benoit's pop-ups.

[Jimmy Redman]

I'm someone who has no problem watching Benoit matches, or voting for him, not that I blame anyone who isn't.

 

Still, I was always high on Benoit and will go high on him here. He was spectacularly good for a very long time. In the 00s he was the best seller in the company, and I don't think that's something that gets discussed enough, now that the pendulum has turned and he's seen as more of a workrate, German spamming spotty guy. His selling is the thread that ties basically any big match he has together. Has off the charts intensity and increases the physicality of basically any match just by being in it.

 

Has one of the longest laundry lists of good matches of anyone, just a smorgasbord and including basically everyone he got within 5 miles of. Major highlights for me include:

 

vs Eddie on Nitro October 95

vs Sullivan, Der Is A Laydee In Da Men's Bathroom match

vs Jericho Ladder match at the Rumble 2001

vs Austin during that week in May 2001, Raw and SD

His entire SD Six run, particularly the big tag matches, and his match vs Rey, even though the Angle matches are ultimately frustrating.

vs Brock, SD December 2003

vs Shawn, Raw Feb and May 2004 - some of the best TV matches ever

Mania XX, still a great three-way

His performance in the first MITB at WM21

vs Finlay, SD and JD 2006

The Best of Seven rehash in late 2005/early 2006 vs Booker and Orton

vs MVP, WM23, Backlash, JD 2007 - those matches MADE MVP and are awesome

 

He'll be in my Top 20.

[TheU_2001]

Disqualified for killing his wife & kid.

I agree. Yes he was a great worker. But he won't be in my list because of the above.

[KB8]

I had Benoit at number 53 in 2016. I voted for him because I thought he was a great wrestler for parts of his career, and great at a number of aspects of pro wrestling. I don't really have a ton of interest in revisiting much of that stuff, though, and I certainly have no objection to people not voting for him on moral grounds. I don't really have a whole lot else to say about him at this point.

[strobogo]

On 12/11/2015 at 11:37 AM, Grimmas said:

I really think Benoit's influence on the business is a root for a lot of people's hate of modern wrestling. The go-go-go style, no selling in favour of more spots, all action and no substance.

 

I think if more current wrestlers followed Lawler or Bret instead of Benoit the wrestling world would be a lot more enjoyable to a huge segment of the audience.

 

For example, I doubt PWG would exist without Benoit.

This is a weird statement to me considering Benoit was about as much of a carbon copy of Dynamite as possible, and the Dynamite/Tiger Mask series really directly influenced the entire junior style in the West and East for generations. Of course, Benoit was a huge influence on the generation after him, but Benoit was directly being a Dynamite clone his entire career. It's not like he took the style and innovated, brought something new, or otherwise elevated work or style in any notable way. 

[Grimmas]

5 minutes ago, strobogo said:

This is a weird statement to me considering Benoit was about as much of a carbon copy of Dynamite as possible, and the Dynamite/Tiger Mask series really directly influenced the entire junior style in the West and East for generations. Of course, Benoit was a huge influence on the generation after him, but Benoit was directly being a Dynamite clone his entire career. It's not like he took the style and innovated, brought something new, or otherwise elevated work or style in any notable way. 

Very fair you could take it back a step too and include Dynamite. Although, if nobody else really copied Dynamite like Benoit did, that influenced way more people. This is a knock against Dynamite too.

[strobogo]

1 minute ago, Grimmas said:

Very fair you could take it back a step too and include Dynamite. Although, if nobody else really copied Dynamite like Benoit did, that influenced way more people. This is a knock against Dynamite too.

I guess my point was that by the time Benoit got into wrestling (because of Dynamite), the Dynamite/Tiger Mask matches were the template for junior style for years in Japan and even Stampede by that point. You can really even take it back to before Tiger Mask was even involved and blame it on Dynamite/Fujinami. I'm sure that style becomes dominant on the indies as time goes by even if Benoit never became a wrestler. 

Would you say it was Benoit that inspired Kid and Lynn to have those matches in Global in 1991, or Tiger Mask/Dynamite/Liger? 

[Grimmas]

2 minutes ago, strobogo said:

I guess my point was that by the time Benoit got into wrestling (because of Dynamite), the Dynamite/Tiger Mask matches were the template for junior style for years in Japan and even Stampede by that point. You can really even take it back to before Tiger Mask was even involved and blame it on Dynamite/Fujinami. I'm sure that style becomes dominant on the indies as time goes by even if Benoit never became a wrestler. 

Would you say it was Benoit that inspired Kid and Lynn to have those matches in Global in 1991, or Tiger Mask/Dynamite/Liger? 

I think Kid/Lynn is more Kidd/TM, but a step further is all Benoit. Basically the 2000s indies and on. Look at the WON voting and Benoit was basically the perfect wrestler to that whole crowd. Yeah, he wouldn't had been that without Dynamite. That's very true. 

I wonder who influenced Dynamite then? Who can we blame for this style fully? 

 

To clarify, no chance of me voting for Benoit. I was over him by 05 and that was before the moral issues with voting for him.

[strobogo]

I'm definitely not saying Benoit wasn't a huge influence on the generation after him, I just think that style would have become the dominant style without Benoit ever getting into wrestling as it was already the dominant junior style for years and was already in the US indies and WCW before Benoit ever had exposure in the US. Benoit was following an already established trend.