elliott Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Here is a genuine question that I'd love someone to explain for me. Kurt Angle has been criticised for being "go go go", but how is that different from the All Japan style which is worked at a fast pace with lots of bombs and offense in general? What I'd love is for someone to break down for me what each of the four pillars has as a worker over Angle WITHOUT leaning on Great Matches. That is: what do each of them do WITHIN matches that puts them over a guy like Angle? This might appear rudimentary to a lot of people, but I think a lot of others would be interested to see it fleshed out. Selling, psychology, structure, etc etc etc But more importantly...now I wish instead of Kurt Angle vs Shane McMahon it was Shane vs Toshiaki Kawada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Just watched that No Way Out match against the Rock, and thought it was piss poor. I wouldn't hold that up as an example of Angle being a great pro wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Come on guys, no bumping this thread. It reminds me I never watched those matches Bill wanted me to (I forgot) and now I'm obliged to again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Here is a genuine question that I'd love someone to explain for me. Kurt Angle has been criticised for being "go go go", but how is that different from the All Japan style which is worked at a fast pace with lots of bombs and offense in general? What I'd love is for someone to break down for me what each of the four pillars has as a worker over Angle WITHOUT leaning on Great Matches. That is: what do each of them do WITHIN matches that puts them over a guy like Angle? This might appear rudimentary to a lot of people, but I think a lot of others would be interested to see it fleshed out. It's not the fact that he works "go go go", it's that he's fucking terrible at the stuff that makes pro wrestlng matches feel special. He has zero grasp of selling and psychology and comparing him to guys like Kawada and Kobashi who carried enormous portions of their matches on selling and emotion is ridiculous and stupid. Not to mention how inferior he is at working the style, how poor he is at structuring matches, how weak his strikes are, how limited his move-set is and how he has made his offence seem completely worthless. Also the All Japan guys could and did work more than one style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Come on guys, no bumping this thread. It reminds me I never watched those matches Bill wanted me to (I forgot) and now I'm obliged to again. Obliged you are, sucker! As for Angle on the whole, I disagree with the majority of negative points being made about him and he will still place incredibly high on my final ballot most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Sorry guys but this is all a bit unspecific and general. Can you point to exactly what Angle does that makes him good / bad? Like actual examples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I have seen very little of All Japan but comparing Angle to those guys seems to miss the mark. At the very least from the standpoint that they all seemed to protect their big moves pretty well while Angle's 2 big "finishers" the Angle Slam and the ankle lock have all been completely over exposed and killed off. It's difficult to even think of someone that Kurt Angle has wrestled in any kind of big match over the last...like, decade, that HASN'T kicked out of his Angle Slam or gotten out of the ankle lock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 How much Angle have you actually watched and from what time period? his tendendcy to do counter spots which make no sense at all in the context of the match just because they looked cool the first time he did them For instance any fancy Ankle Lock counter. Why is AJ Styles trying to Tombstone Piledrive Angle even though he never uses that move? Oh right because he's not going to actually use it it's a contrived set-up to an Ankle Lock counter that we're going to get because it looked cool in a 2006 match vs The Undertaker that Angle's been trying to recreate since. He has zero grasp of selling and psychology As evident in any watch where he was actually calling the spots. Could you honestly point to an example where Angle offered something other than moves? He'll do the "repeated German Suplexes" spot and have the other guy no-sell it for a shitty transition out of control and yet they're supposed to be what, his third most efficient maneuver? Your defence here could be "well it's the other guy going for the Tombstone/no-selling the German, so it's not his fault" but these are things that happen exclusively in Angle matches and are obviusly his calls. how poor he is at structuring matches how inferior he is at working the style how limited his move-set is has made his offence seem completely worthless http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xywkzi_kurt-angle-vs-jeff-hardy-no-surrender-2010_sport No argument I could make would depict Angle's flaws as good as this match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I have seen very little of All Japan but comparing Angle to those guys seems to miss the mark. At the very least from the standpoint that they all seemed to protect their big moves pretty well while Angle's 2 big "finishers" the Angle Slam and the ankle lock have all been completely over exposed and killed off. It's difficult to even think of someone that Kurt Angle has wrestled in any kind of big match over the last...like, decade, that HASN'T kicked out of his Angle Slam or gotten out of the ankle lock. From what I've seen, those AJPW matches had selling in the moment, selling over time, and meaningful escalation. I think they have too much of the third but I woudn't deny the first two for the most part (give or take a few lapses). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I have seen very little of All Japan but comparing Angle to those guys seems to miss the mark. At the very least from the standpoint that they all seemed to protect their big moves pretty well while Angle's 2 big "finishers" the Angle Slam and the ankle lock have all been completely over exposed and killed off. It's difficult to even think of someone that Kurt Angle has wrestled in any kind of big match over the last...like, decade, that HASN'T kicked out of his Angle Slam or gotten out of the ankle lock. From what I've seen, those AJPW matches had selling in the moment, selling over time, and meaningful escalation. I think they have too much of the third but I woudn't deny the first two for the most part (give or take a few lapses). Well I can definitely say that with Kurt there is no sense of "meaningful escalation" whatsoever. He just does Angle Slams over and over for the obvious "nearfall" that you know isn't going to be the finish. And the only thing he does different with the ankle lock is the heel hock that used to signal the end but I have to assume he's killed that off as well during his time in TNA that I haven't watched. And since I can't just assume that JVK has any idea what's happened in TNA, Kurt Angle has essentially let EVERYONE on the roster who has faced him on TV and PPV kick out of the slam or get out of the ankle lock, in nearly every meaningful encounter. From Jay Lethal to Samoa Joe. When those are your 2 big moves and there's really nothing else after that it's kind of hard to have any kind of meaningful escalation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 It doesn't answer Parv's question, which I think is a good one, but the All Japan crew simply did everything better. Selling, offensive diversity / strikes / execution, storytelling, escalation -- you name it, they did it better. I'm not in the camp of Angle haters, even if some of his stuff hasn't aged as well as the AJPW stuff, but I also wouldn't begin to put him on that level. As far as domestic / WWE goes, when he was at his peak I enjoyed his top matches quite a bit and still do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Escalation is another good term in assessing the quality of matches and workers. Haven't really heard it used a lot but I think I understand Kurt being viewed as anti-escalation. It's about protecting moves essentially, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Watching him in 2000-2003 I think the opposite is true. He shows a decided eye for escalation, building his matches until the reach a crescendo that the fans buy into every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Can you point to any examples Bill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 The Austin series in 2001, the Benoit matches (but especially the Rumble '03 match), his series versus Edge in 00-01, and his tag matches with Benoit in 01 would probably be the best examples of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Cheers, I will take a look soon, after Cena, Angle is the next "modern guy" I'll be looking at. I remember liking Angle back in the day, but preferred three Is nerdy Kurt to "mouth shield" Kurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Most people do. I don't mind the more serious Angle, and think he works for the most part, but his best character work was easily as the nerdy jock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I'd also add the Misterio match from Summerslam '02, as well as the triple threat with Lesnar & Big Show from '03. Its not as widely regarded as the Lesnar PPV matches (and rightly so) but its different and worth watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 If you are going to watch a bunch of early 2000s Kurt Angle then you can't NOT watch the match with Rey from Summerslam 2002. I like Kurt from this time period and I think this might be his best singles match. I thought the Benoit matches around 2003 is when he started to become more like the current Angle and less like the early version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted March 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 If you are going to watch a bunch of early 2000s Kurt Angle then you can't NOT watch the match with Rey from Summerslam 2002. I like Kurt from this time period and I think this might be his best singles match. I thought the Benoit matches around 2003 is when he started to become more like the current Angle and less like the early version. I have a theory that the Benoit matches really ended Angle's career (in terms of being good). Those matches were so crazy and awful and got such praise that he went even more and more into that style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I actually really liked the Benoit-Angle Rumble match the last time I watched it, even if it did signal a bad direction for Angle. It was supposed to be the ultimate showdown between the two most athletic, "serious" wrestlers on the roster, and they established that sense of competition by pushing the pace and avoiding long control sections. That wouldn't work for most matches, but for those two guys at that moment, it fit quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Rewatched Mania 21 yesterday and I thought Angle/Michaels held up incredibly well. Perhaps some find it an example of excessive finishers, but I thought the build and escalation were terrific and it wasn't just something they resorted to. The cumulative selling down the stretch was great and even knowing the outcome, I was still popping at certain counters and near falls. Easy 4.5 stars in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted March 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Rewatched Mania 21 yesterday and I thought Angle/Michaels held up incredibly well. Perhaps some find it an example of excessive finishers, but I thought the build and escalation were terrific and it wasn't just something they resorted to. The cumulative selling down the stretch was great and even knowing the outcome, I was still popping at certain counters and near falls. Easy 4.5 stars in my book. On the Top 100 matches on the Network I had to watch this garbage of a match and I hated it. Only Chad liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Sorry it didn't work for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Angle is weird for me, because I've never really been a fan of how he works in the ring, or his character work, but he's been apart of a bunch of matches that I've really enjoyed. I guess that speaks to the "great matches vs. overall package and/or how the guy actually works" thing I've seen debated around here. He's had matches that I would consider 4 stars or higher with guys like Benoit, Austin, The Rock, Undertaker, Lesner, Michaels, Mysterio, Styles, Joe, Jarrett, McGuinness, and probably some others that I can't think of right now, but because I like pretty much all those guys a lot more than Angle, it's easy for me to go "oh, he was carried in those matches". Which is something I generally don't like to think, because, as the saying goes, "it takes two to tango". And while I truly think that those matches were made great by his opponents, I think I just have a pretty strong bias against Angle that makes it hard for me to objectively look at the positives that he brings to the table. I might try to set aside that bias and rewatch some of his matches for the purpose of this project, but I highly doubt he's going to make my list at this point, and there's plenty of other guys that I think my time would be better spent checking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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