Kurt Angle

[WingedEagle]

Highly inappropriate to bring up Nickelback here unless its specifically for the purposes of denigrating a Canadian wrestler.

[GOTNW]

 

Should we throw things away, because they don't fit in our current view, when they were praised by their intended audience?

That's on you. "Used to" doesn't mean anything to me and my list reflects that. I thought MVP was the best wrestler when I was 11 because I digged his outfit and name. Some opinions don't hold up.

[supremebve]

 

 

Should we throw things away, because they don't fit in our current view, when they were praised by their intended audience?

That's on you. "Used to" doesn't mean anything to me and my list reflects that. I thought MVP was the best wrestler when I was 11 because I digged his outfit and name. Some opinions don't hold up.

 

I get that, but was MVP ever a consensus top wrestler in the world like Kurt Angle was? I think Angle, more than just about anyone, is a guy we're judging negatively for traits that we once found positive. I guess the gist of my issue with how Angle is evaluated is that, somehow our opinions changed and we're upset that his style didn't change with them. He was almost universally praised for his wrestling style, what motivation would he have to change? I don't watch TNA so maybe I have a different perspective, but we didn't start picking apart his WWE run until it was over. So it is kind of like listening to RUN DMC and being mad that they don't rap like Kendrick Lamar.

[Matt D]

Nickelback is officially the new Hitler. If you bring them up in an argument you can't claim to have won. At least that is my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

 

 

I'm sympathetic to that but i feel like it's fair game if someone brings up the:

 

"Well, it DID play well with the demographic (and Dave Meltzer)."

 

argument.

 

Michael Bay is probably a better example.

[Jingus]

@Jingus - Masterpiece feels a little strong. Take a look over my reviews of some of Angle's other 2001 matches and tell me if you think I'd still find it a masterpiece: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33658-where-the-big-boys-play-82-top-100-greatest-wrestlers-ever-special-part-2-top-40/?p=5734565

How's that relevant? I'm talking about one particular match with one particular opponent, those are reviews of other matches with another opponent. Have you not seen the Summerslam match? Austin and Angle had a whole series of bouts which were all awesome, but that one was the best of 'em.

[anarchistxx]

SS01 is absolutely a masterpiece, contender for the best WWE match ever. Best Kurt Angle performance as well, face covered in blood, furiously fiery and righteous and emotional, with Austin the angry rabid dog backed into a corner and trying anything to escape with his title.

[GOTNW]

 

 

 

Should we throw things away, because they don't fit in our current view, when they were praised by their intended audience?

That's on you. "Used to" doesn't mean anything to me and my list reflects that. I thought MVP was the best wrestler when I was 11 because I digged his outfit and name. Some opinions don't hold up.

 

I get that, but was MVP ever a consensus top wrestler in the world like Kurt Angle was? I think Angle, more than just about anyone, is a guy we're judging negatively for traits that we once found positive. I guess the gist of my issue with how Angle is evaluated is that, somehow our opinions changed and we're upset that his style didn't change with them. He was almost universally praised for his wrestling style, what motivation would he have to change? I don't watch TNA so maybe I have a different perspective, but we didn't start picking apart his WWE run until it was over. So it is kind of like listening to RUN DMC and being mad that they don't rap like Kendrick Lamar.

 

I started watching wrestling after Angle's WWE run was already over so I really can't comment on something like that. To a lot of people his work still has merit. To those that it doesn't I hope they'd move on with their fandom instead of binge watching Angle matches just to pick them apart and yell about how bad they are. To me the problem with Angle is that that I just don't think he's very captivating at working the style he does. I don't think I can judge rap fairly beucase the spectrum of rap I like includes like, Milo, some Beastie Boys and that one Dr.Octagon album, but I also see no point in me arguing about any of it when the reality is that I'm a white kid removed from the struggles and the issues that fuel so much of rap music. I do however enjoy a bunch of pro wrestling that is either spotty and/or fast paced, and with me branching out and watching so much other stuff from all around the world and also having a shift in taste, Angle's stuff just didn't hold up.

[Grimmas]

SS01 is absolutely a masterpiece, contender for the best WWE match ever. Best Kurt Angle performance as well, face covered in blood, furiously fiery and righteous and emotional, with Austin the angry rabid dog backed into a corner and trying anything to escape with his title.

It's a great match but a masterpiece and in contention for greatest WWE match ever? If you consider contention like maybe the 40th best match they have had?

[Quentin Skinner]

Angle is someone I enjoyed a lot from about 1999-2008. Will on my list somewhere in the 50s. Yes his recent TNA years hurt his stock a bit, but even with that Angle is still probably one of the best wrestlers I've ever seen.

 

Now the peak of Angle's run was when I was a kid so of course I went back and watched a lot of stuff from 2001-2006. It was the same thing I did with guys I liked a lot at that age like Chris Jericho, RVD, Jeff Hardy, and Shawn Michaels during this process. I thought maybe his stuff wouldn't hold up too well since so many people in this bubble of wrestling fandom seem to be so critical of him and the guys I mentioned. While a guy like Jericho did have his stock dropped on rewatch and RVD and Hardy aren't coming anywhere close to my list, Angle like Michaels, did hold up for me. I may have liked Kanye West and Lupe Fiasco as a kid. When I go back and listen to Late Registration or Food and Liquor, I still get that feeling I would back then. Would that apply to every single musician I liked as a kid growing up? Of course not, but there will always be a few acts that stand the test of time and you still see that greatness as you get older. Angle matches from that time period always reeled me in and still do.

[anarchistxx]

 

SS01 is absolutely a masterpiece, contender for the best WWE match ever. Best Kurt Angle performance as well, face covered in blood, furiously fiery and righteous and emotional, with Austin the angry rabid dog backed into a corner and trying anything to escape with his title.

It's a great match but a masterpiece and in contention for greatest WWE match ever? If you consider contention like maybe the 40th best match they have had?

 

 

It has kind of this incessant, urgent intensity to it the entire way through that very few WWE bouts can match. There are no peaks or troughs. The closest comparison is Bret vs Austin. Everything is crisp, aggressive, purposeful. The character work is sublime. The screwy finish for once works perfectly in the context. It feels like a bloody, personal battle but is also elevated by the world title being at stake, and in the process elevates the title itself by the quality of the work and the desperation to win the match or hold on to the strap by any means necessary.

 

It is the culmination of paranoid, violent, unhinged 2001 Austin who needs the title and will do whatever it takes to hold onto it. That sequence when he repeatedly hurls Angle into the ring post and then unleashes some beautiful punches as he is prone against the apron bleeding everywhere. And Kurt's revenge, with the fiery, angry comeback, suplexing him on the floor and unleashing a beautiful moonsault. JR calls the match perfectly. Love Austin's gradual realization as the match progresses that he won't be able to beat Kurt Angle on this night, his opponent is too driven, too good.

 

Brilliant match, and possibly the only WWE match that would be a lock for my Top 25 of all time.

[Microstatistics]

 

 

SS01 is absolutely a masterpiece, contender for the best WWE match ever. Best Kurt Angle performance as well, face covered in blood, furiously fiery and righteous and emotional, with Austin the angry rabid dog backed into a corner and trying anything to escape with his title.

It's a great match but a masterpiece and in contention for greatest WWE match ever? If you consider contention like maybe the 40th best match they have had?

 

 

It has kind of this incessant, urgent intensity to it the entire way through that very few WWE bouts can match. There are no peaks or troughs. The closest comparison is Bret vs Austin. Everything is crisp, aggressive, purposeful. The character work is sublime. The screwy finish for once works perfectly in the context. It feels like a bloody, personal battle but is also elevated by the world title being at stake, and in the process elevates the title itself by the quality of the work and the desperation to win the match or hold on to the strap by any means necessary.

 

It is the culmination of paranoid, violent, unhinged 2001 Austin who needs the title and will do whatever it takes to hold onto it. That sequence when he repeatedly hurls Angle into the ring post and then unleashes some beautiful punches as he is prone against the apron bleeding everywhere. And Kurt's revenge, with the fiery, angry comeback, suplexing him on the floor and unleashing a beautiful moonsault. JR calls the match perfectly. Love Austin's gradual realization as the match progresses that he won't be able to beat Kurt Angle on this night, his opponent is too driven, too good.

 

Brilliant match, and possibly the only WWE match that would be a lock for my Top 25 of all time.

 

Great Summary. I would rate it as the best WWE match of the 2000-2009 decade and Top 10 for WWE overall.

[JerryvonKramer]

I need to re-watch that one clearly.

[Jingus]

That sequence when he repeatedly hurls Angle into the ring post and then unleashes some beautiful punches as he is prone against the apron bleeding everywhere.

I freaking love that sequence. Even aside from the punches (which seriously feel like some Lawler/Funk level fisticuffs), that part where Austin just KEEPS throwing Angle into the post over and over again was one of the better spots I've ever seen in that environment to make it clear that we're reaching a new level of viciousness within a match. It makes it clear that Stone Cold is willing to do anything in order to beat Kurt, even if it winds up putting the Olympian in a goddamn wheelchair.

[ThomasFromIowa]

I tried to come up with a sharply written summary of why I will be voting Angle really high, but it really just comes down to him being the most over wrestler with me as a teenager and that sticks with me. Angle was also one of the few wrestlers to figure out how to please both the internet crowd and the casual viewer as a main eventer in the 2000s and I think that should give him some merit. Also, if you value drawing power, Angle's leap to TNA coincided right with TNA's viewer increase and really started the company's peak period.

[Matt D]

I tried to come up with a sharply written summary of why I will be voting Angle really high, but it really just comes down to him being the most over wrestler with me as a teenager and that sticks with me. Angle was also one of the few wrestlers to figure out how to please both the internet crowd and the casual viewer as a main eventer in the 2000s and I think that should give him some merit. Also, if you value drawing power, Angle's leap to TNA coincided right with TNA's viewer increase and really started the company's peak period.

 

At least you wear it with pride, I guess.

[BigBadMick]

Politely requesting recommendations from @el-p (and others) for his best TNA matches

[BigBadMick]

@El-P

[El-P]

(disclaimer : whatever I wrote before in this thread if I did is irrelevant today as I totally flipped the coin on Kurt Angle thanks to TNA)

There are others but these were part of my TOP 25 TNA matches ever :

2008.04.13 Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe (cage match) (Final Resolution)

MMA-like shoot-style infused heel performance

2008.08.10 Kurt Angle vs AJ Styles (Last Man Standing) (Hard Justice)

Douchebag heel / great use of gimmick match 

2009.01.11 Kurt Angle vs Jeff Jarrett (no DQ) (Genesis)

Pissed off babyface / best Jarrett Special match ever

2010.04.18 Kurt Angle vs Mr. Anderson (Cage Match) (Lockdown)

Great babyface grudge bloodfest spectacle

2012.06.10 Kurt Angle & AJ Styles vs Chris Daniels & Kazarian (Slammiversary)

Total bombfest

[kid dracula]

Thanks for the helpful list, El-P. I dug for this thread because I'm interested in considering Angle for GWE, on the basis of one of these two theories:

1. His reputation as a go-go suplex meathead is unfair/incorrect, or

2. Being a go-go suplex meathead is cool. 

We'll see! I have seen very little of Kurt in TNA, so it'll at least be new. 

[El-P]

18 minutes ago, kid dracula said:

1. His reputation as a go-go suplex meathead is unfair/incorrect, or

2. Being a go-go suplex meathead is cool. 

Both.

He is much more than a go-go suplex worker. When he's going into go-go suplex mode he's awesome at it. He's also the master of pushing up the pace at *exactly* the right moments and the master at making *anyone* look better than they are (and able to push himself up to the level of superior workers like AJ). I wouldn't be surprised if he made my top 20 when all is said and done.

Reminder : I'm speaking TNA, which is his peak as a worker. Some early criticism may apply more to his WWE work, although I may have to revisit that too without my former preconceptions to really figure out where he will end up. But he'll end up pretty high on my list. Angle was awesome.

[Tetsujin]

I totally agree with El-P here. Angle was amazing as a go-go worker, but is not like he was great until 2003 and suddendly he stopped being good for the rest of his career. Great short-term seller, cocky heel dominating, limbworker, overconfident matworker, intense brawler... I think only Kobashi is better at kicking out at 2'999999 when it's necessary. He probably was the most entertaining worker to follow in TV beetween 2000 and 2006, which is awesome, and then you have his TNA run... I don't think that's Angle's peak (at least not all those years), but he is still great at what he does. His New Japan run is a bit dissapointing though, but I think you can still build his case without those matches and considering him a serious top 10 contender.

[El-P]

43 minutes ago, Tetsujin said:

I think only Kobashi is better at kicking out at 2'999999 when it's necessary. 

That's one thing he is absolutely brillant at indeed, glad I'm not alone noticing that one. It's insane how he can create a nearfall *after the fact* (because of how perception works) from any kind of spot. It's like a magic trick and it's a way to create excitement and tension with snap of a finger. Another one great at this (and they are a very rare breed because it takes insane timing to do it successfully) is actually Mariko Yoshida.

[Microstatistics]

1 hour ago, Tetsujin said:

I totally agree with El-P here. Angle was amazing as a go-go worker, but is not like he was great until 2003 and suddendly he stopped being good for the rest of his career. Great short-term seller, cocky heel dominating, limbworker, overconfident matworker, intense brawler... I think only Kobashi is better at kicking out at 2'999999 when it's necessary. He probably was the most entertaining worker to follow in TV beetween 2000 and 2006, which is awesome, and then you have his TNA run... I don't think that's Angle's peak (at least not all those years), but he is still great at what he does. His New Japan run is a bit dissapointing though, but I think you can still build his case without those matches and considering him a serious top 10 contender.

Yeah, this is a great observation. I'd add Taue to that list as well. 

He is still in consideration for my bottom 20 or so and I think his selling ability was fine but his psychology could really be wonky. His love of following up big offense with the ankle lock and tendency to shoehorn it into finishing stretches were particularly egregious. 

I feel Eddie Guerrero was his best opponent since I feel he was able to cover for Angle's psychology lapses and provide organic transitions and a structure . The WM 20 match is probably Angle's career match, especially because the shift from the ribwork on Eddie to the anklelock heavy finish felt natural and earned. 

[EnviousStupid]

Angle's been coming up a lot in terms of his "greatness", mainly by people who can't believe Meltzer gave him no 5 stars. Regardless, I thought I'd add my 2 cents here on him. I like Angle. More as a personality and promo than in-ring, but the guy was an athletic freak who could go go go with great wrestlers and often enough result in something great. Well, at least for a handful of years consistently. I think by 2005 he's clearly intent on having a kind of epic match that loses its lustre the more you see it. It can still work to a lesser degree with some guys, but it really did depend on the guy opposite him and how much his opponent was able to call their match/es. The picture of him being this great technical wrestler lies primarily on his credentials and everyone around him referring to Angle as such. Rarely ever was it his own craft living up to the moniker. Still, he had his strengths that, for a period of time could mesh well with the talent around him. I think his body of work as part of the Smackdown Six and late Attitude Era is more than enough to prove that. 

Mostly though I just like how he'd lean into being a goofball. When I think of peak Angle I don't think of matches, but Milkomania, or shooting a tranquilizer dart at Big Show.

[ohtani's jacket]

So much of the criticism of Angle back in the day was the fact that he couldn't jell with Guerrero, as though none of that was on Eddie. I'm an Angle fan. The last two matches I saw of his were a great Cena match followed by an excellent Marty Jannetty match. I don't agree with the notions that he had to be in the ring with the right guy, was a go-go-go worker and not a great technical wrestler. Add the Mysterio match from Japan and that's three long form, anti go-go-go matches in a row. The dude was a hell of a talent.