Kazuchika Okada

[El-P]

50 minutes ago, Tetsujin said:

I don't get the "he can bore you, it's your opinion, but that's on you, objectively he's one of the GOATs" card.

It's all a matter of perception. When I say it's on them, I'm not saying people are wrong for getting bored, but that basically what was great 7 years ago is still just as great today, only indeed there isn't that much variation and after a point, it's only natural some people would get bored especially if they would like something else out of Okada. It's even more true when it's been watched in real time, with a real-life timeframe, as opposed to jumping into a back catalogue and watching stuff not as they happen but however the viewer construct his own relationship to the body of work of worker X or Y. In real time, when, at some point maybe you want something else. Plus there's no hindsight (which also changes the perception of watching a past body of work, when you know this period is supposed to be "bad" and the next is supposed to be "better" or "different" etc...). So if you actively want something *else* and it doesn't happen, and even if it's pretty much the same kind of stuff that was considered great a few years back, you're gonna get bored by it. But whenever someone says "It's not what I wanted" about anything, it is absolutely on them, because the perception is completely biased by expectations, including expectations of something that was never promised or even teased or showed by the outside source. Not a moral judgement nor a criticism, just a fact of life. And since :

50 minutes ago, Tetsujin said:

It's just almost always the same, and that "almost" doesn't compensate enough, for me at least.

Well, I understand why you'd say you're bored. But my point is that really he's still as great as he was before when he wants to be. It's not like his work has collapsed, it has just not happened as demonstrated by the WK matches, which to me where out of this world great. Of course we can agree to disagree about that too. Even I at points I've been "Okay, another Okada match basically" at the beginnings, then during the finishing stretch and by the ending I was blown away and like "That guy is undeniable.". Probably because he's a slow burn worker and yes, doesn't deviate a lot. He's a variation on a theme guy, and it's fine. One reason I think so highly of him actually comes from the fact I feel he's just *too great* even when I'm not going in very excited about his matches. 

[EnviousStupid]

1 hour ago, Tetsujin said:

Also, his small variations have been to worse. He had a pretty fucking cool finishing hold (I don't even remember it's name now), left it for no reason, and years later came with a stupid cobra clutch to bore the living shit out of people. He had this cool "cocky rich brat" attitude, and he became less and less character driven by time. He had one Rainmaker that was an insta kill, but now he has multiple Rainmaker versions, each one looking worse than the last, but don't worry, the only one that will get him the win is the original Rainmaker so why bother anyway!?!? He had one fantastic Tombstone as a signature spot that was basically the perfect set up for his Rainmaker, so he could build tension around wheter he will execute it or not (the struggle around tombstones are part of what makes most of the Tanahashi matches amazing, imo), but now he has a regular Tombstone, the spinning Tombstone, and apron versions of both. None of them mean anything now. Hell, the first time he did the spinning Tombstone was because Omega pushed him to surpass his fucking limits at WK 11, and it felt huge, but look at it now. It's really frustrating.

This. I find it so disappointing in hindsight how Okada has managed to turn newly debuted moves or "moments" that helped him win big matches, into mere expectations from the standard Okada epics to come. The wrist-control spot against Tanahashi at WK10 is the most obvious, but how many times now did we see him do the German Suplex maintaining wrist-control that started with Styles at Dominion 2015? Or the Spinning Tombstone from WK11, now replaced by a Sitout Tombstone he initially used on Sanada in 2019. To a lesser extent, you have him hitting multiple "Half-Rainmaker" clotheslines a major match for several years, usually done the same way towards the finish. Sometimes, he'll even do a Discus variation of it. For a while, we also got the backslide pin transitioning into one. It seems like whatever the purpose of these variations served at the time, have resulted in his style being diluted so much before he's even turned 35. 

It reminds me a lot of wrestlers like Misawa and Kobashi having escalated everything across their series of matches in the 90s that they became increasingly more about bigger moves for a style that had started to collapse in on itself, still taxing on the body through their own sheer excess.

 

[Boss Rock]

And here I thought Kenny Omega was going to be the most divisive candidate.

[El-P]

4 minutes ago, Boss Rock said:

And here I thought Kenny Omega was going to be the most divisive candidate.

Wait until I begin to pimp BOTH Young Bucks for my top tier. 

[Boss Rock]

19 minutes ago, El-P said:

Wait until I begin to pimp BOTH Young Bucks for my top tier. 

Looking forward to it!

[Ma Stump Puller]

Has his moments but very complacent and is more than happy to stay in the NJPW-bubble of inflated matches and padding through the roof forever more. The Shibata match was the last time he got out of his comfort zone and it was really more of a "kicking and screaming" kind than anything else. When he does something interesting with himself that's not just mildly adding a few extra moves to pad matches out more I'll be ready to discuss his versatility. At the moment he's obviously full of good matches to bring up, but at a point where everything is just starting to melt together into one padding-stuffed cake, how much can that be ignored?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[El McKell]

I'm starting to think Okada might be the best ever at execution of offense.

[fxnj]

20 minutes ago, El McKell said:

I'm starting to think Okada might be the best ever at execution of offense.

Yeah, Okada forearms or him landing gingerly on his hip for an elbow drop are what come to mind when I think hurty looking offense.

[NintendoLogic]

In fairness, he does have a pretty amazing dropkick. It's no surprise that most of his best matches feature them as the focal point of his offense.

[KawadaSmile]

On 4/12/2021 at 11:05 AM, cubbymark said:

To me, Okada is a Japanese Randy Orton. He bores me to tears. His matches are way too long. A lot of the early mat work to drag out the New Japan epic main event style match is rendered worthless. And I absolutely loathe the Rainmaker as a finisher for him. His build is too lanky for me to believe it to be as devastating as a Stan Hansen lariat. And let’s not forget baggy pants era Okada. Not a good look. But I recognize this is a me problem.

I think this post is a great one. I think he's a bit like Orton as well, but also in some more positive aspects. I believe, like others have mentioned, that he has some great and fluid signature spots like his dropkicks, both the standard (which Orton also used to do pretty well) and the John Woo one. Also, he is capable of inserting the Rainmaker into various situations in ways that don't make the match very truncated.

I'd argue that Orton is a smoother wrestler, though.

[Tetsujin]

On 4/10/2024 at 7:23 PM, El McKell said:

I'm starting to think Okada might be the best ever at execution of offense.

That's sounds weird to me, because I believe that precisely is one of Okada's biggest weaknesses. Everything about his offense just feels AI generated.

[Childs]

Almost everything he does, even the rainmaker, looks weak. It's why I've never gotten into him, even though he has an undeniable aura and many great matches to his name.