Crowd Chants

[Matt D]

 

 

I am just asking a question about the difference in their styles.

Most likely, Danielson and Low-Ki were known quantities. Gulak and Busick aren't. Most people who are fans of any kind of entertainment give creators they like more rope than people they have no idea.

 

This, basically.

 

And wrestlers most definitely work in stuff where they think they're going to get a This Is Awesome chant. Guys who work to that aren't doing it right. That's not organic. That's reactionary to the point where it's like a Pavlovian reflex. I understand the idea that Joe's presenting, but there's a big difference between a couple of guys doing something organic that elicits that type of reaction and a couple of guys working through spots for the hand clapping or This Is Awesome chant in response. You don't work for that response like it's a spot in the match.

 

If it's worked that way instead of portraying organic competitiveness, or, you know, actual heat and hatred, then something is innately broken and that's when the "pretending to be a pro wrestler" criticism comes up.

[Shining Wiz]

 

 

 

I am just asking a question about the difference in their styles.

 

Most likely, Danielson and Low-Ki were known quantities. Gulak and Busick aren't. Most people who are fans of any kind of entertainment give creators they like more rope than people they have no idea.

This, basically.

 

And wrestlers most definitely work in stuff where they think they're going to get a This Is Awesome chant. Guys who work to that aren't doing it right. That's not organic. That's reactionary to the point where it's like a Pavlovian reflex. I understand the idea that Joe's presenting, but there's a big difference between a couple of guys doing something organic that elicits that type of reaction and a couple of guys working through spots for the hand clapping or This Is Awesome chant in response. You don't work for that response like it's a spot in the match.

If it's worked that way instead of portraying organic competitiveness, or, you know, actual heat and hatred, then something is innately broken and that's when the "pretending to be a pro wrestler" criticism comes up.

I hate it when two guys buy a ring, rent a building, sell tickets, put on flashy clothes, get in the ring and proceed to pretend to be pro wrestlers by doing wrestling moves on each other in hopes of entertaining the people pretending to be fans in the crowd.

 

Please note - high level of sarcasm in above comment.

 

I know most people here think about wrestling on a slightly higher level than a lot of folks do, but this may be the snobbiest comment I have read.

[Dylan Waco]

 

Well, obviously they didn't think it was great. Thatcher got booed at CZW, too. That style is a hard sell, especially at a PWG show.

The BOLA reaction was an anti-CZW thing. The past page and a bit are biased people criticising other people for being biased. Fact of the matter is Thatcher isn't the most charismatic wrestler in the World and you can't control a crowd (with reason) you are a poor professional. If the promotion and person were different people would be talking about how he was EXPOSED.

Like how Tanahashi was exposed v. Mike Bennett?

[Steenalized]

PWG fans wildly cheered the worst match I"ve ever seen, so I couldn't possibly care less about what the couple hundred flip fetishists that line the walls of that facility think about anything.

 

/off my lawn rant over

What match was that?

 

Also, there were hardly any chants at the AAW show I went to last night. Maybe a holy shit during the big six-man spotfest that they run out after intermission. I can't remember any "this is awesome" or this is wrestling. Mostly chanting people's names, booing heels, cheering faces. The big exception was that a match ended in DQ in a promotion whose tagline is "No Countouts, No Disqualifications." The place chanted "bullshit" for a few minutes after, paused while a video played, then picked it back up for the first half of the next match, as well they should have.

[MoS]

On an unrelated note, The Rock was really great at working the crowd and feeding off reactions. Joe brought up Batista getting flustered and having no idea how to react to the crowd turning on him. Contrast that with Rock getting booed against Hogan or against Lesnar, and how he managed to work the fans by heeling it up and amplifying the reactions. It was a win-win situation; everyone came out having a better time. The only time when he did not do it was against Austin at WM 17, and that was because Austin was supposed to turn heel.

[Steenalized]

Orton has historically been pretty great for flipping out and not handling the crowd reactions well when they don't go his way. But then he also hammed it up and tagged in Ryback when the Las Vegas crowd was chanting the big guy's name, so maybe he's turning it around.

[MoS]

Orton has historically been pretty great for flipping out and not handling the crowd reactions well when they don't go his way. But then he also hammed it up and tagged in Ryback when the Las Vegas crowd was chanting the big guy's name, so maybe he's turning it around.

Seeing how horrible he was at handling crowd reactions, he can only improve.

 

John Cena is also good at handling crowd reactions. While he does not heel it up like Rock does, he remains unflustered, and often responds to a "You can't wrestle" by busting out a bunch of chain wrestling moves, for example, I think his responses to hostile crowds, like ONS in 2006 and MitB in 2011 were extemely laudable.

[Phil Schneider]

 

When did Gulak and Busick work each other in PWG? It looks like they were both in the BOLA but not against each other

 

Tonight.

 

 

It looks like Busick worked Ciampa not Gulak

[rovert]

Like how Tanahashi was exposed v. Mike Bennett?

Not really. Tanahashi was hurting and he always tailors his performances to the size of the crowd as do most of his peers.

[Dylan Waco]

So you are making excuses for a favorite. Got it.

[Shining Wiz]

So you are making excuses for a favorite. Got it.

I see what you did there.

 

And it amuses me.

[rovert]

So you are making excuses for a favorite. Got it.

Not an excuse beyond the injury thing. That's just always been the case with a lot of Japanese Wrestlers. They largely Wrestle like THAT when they come to the UK too.

 

Of this new wave of technical wrestlers Zack Sabre Jr. understands how to get over the most to Western audiences. By every and all accounts he ripped it up at BOLA. Blaming just the fans and not the Wrestlers is silly.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not saying your wrong.

 

I just think you should be consistent and rightfully condemn Tanahashi for his professional failures, particularly relative to his peers.

[WingedEagle]

How is it a failure to actively choose and put expend less effort in front of a smaller audience that bears no relation to your core/base? if you have a job and claim to put forth the exact same effort in every single task you do relating to it, you are likely lying. We all need to save ourselves and put forth a little more on some occasions as opposed to others. Its called prioritizing and allows someone to deliver when it counts. Not all situations / tasks / clients / matters / wrestling matches are equals.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't begrudge Tanahashi for his choices. But he should be held to the same standard others are held to, including people like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels who have been routinely - and at times viciously - attacked for years for sub-par house show/small show efforts. More to the point Tanahashi did not get over at the level of Liger, Okada, Nskamura or the Bullet Club. If we can criticize Thatcher for not getting over in a PWG setting where some have theorized anti-CZW sentiment fueled contempt, is it not fair to criticize someone who is praised as an all time great by many, for half assing it and not getting over nearly as much outside of NJPW? One would think the argument about failure to adapt/adjust to crowds would be universal and not just something used to take shots at niche indie guys and WWE workers.

[Zenjo]

'Ladies and Gentleman, the opening contest is scheduled for one fall.

Introducing first...

From the Internet Wrestling Community,

They are the workrate champions of the woorrrrllddd,

The Smart Marks!!!'

 

'Fans of the year'

'Five star fans'

'We are awesome'

 

[Repeat for 4 hours]

[moazzam23]

Nakamura generally does a lot better in CMLL and the British indys than Tanahashi, from what I've seen. More over and also has better matches.

[WingedEagle]

I don't begrudge Tanahashi for his choices. But he should be held to the same standard others are held to, including people like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels who have been routinely - and at times viciously - attacked for years for sub-par house show/small show efforts. More to the point Tanahashi did not get over at the level of Liger, Okada, Nskamura or the Bullet Club. If we can criticize Thatcher for not getting over in a PWG setting where some have theorized anti-CZW sentiment fueled contempt, is it not fair to criticize someone who is praised as an all time great by many, for half assing it and not getting over nearly as much outside of NJPW? One would think the argument about failure to adapt/adjust to crowds would be universal and not just something used to take shots at niche indie guys and WWE workers.

 

I don't have a problem with criticizing his lack of effort or the decision to go easy at a house show. Though I think we can agree there's a difference between Tanahashi taking it easy on an ROH show or a show in Europe as opposed to a NJPW show at Korakuen, much as the same is true for Hart or Michaels crapping the bed on a small show in Europe or Mexico as opposed to a big house domestically. I just don't see the basis for extrapolating from what's clearly a strategic decision to prioritize one's base or big performances at the expense of something small or insignificant in the picture. if he and Okada put on one of their long matches at a smaller show and it didn't get over at all and they failed to adapt, that'd be one thing. That distinction seems important to me.

[Shining Wiz]

I don't begrudge Tanahashi for his choices. But he should be held to the same standard others are held to, including people like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels who have been routinely - and at times viciously - attacked for years for sub-par house show/small show efforts. More to the point Tanahashi did not get over at the level of Liger, Okada, Nskamura or the Bullet Club. If we can criticize Thatcher for not getting over in a PWG setting where some have theorized anti-CZW sentiment fueled contempt, is it not fair to criticize someone who is praised as an all time great by many, for half assing it and not getting over nearly as much outside of NJPW? One would think the argument about failure to adapt/adjust to crowds would be universal and not just something used to take shots at niche indie guys and WWE workers.

Criticizing him for the lack of effort is one thing, but you bring up a more interesting point - in front of a crowd that knew them all, Tanahashi got a much smaller reaction than the others mentioned. Presumably, this was a crowd pretty well acquainted with all of them, and particularly Tanahashi's track record. Might have been that they had lower expectations given his opponent and position on card, or maybe Tanahashi doesn't translate as well as other NJPW stars to North America.

[rovert]

I don't begrudge Tanahashi for his choices. But he should be held to the same standard others are held to, including people like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels who have been routinely - and at times viciously - attacked for years for sub-par house show/small show efforts. More to the point Tanahashi did not get over at the level of Liger, Okada, Nskamura or the Bullet Club. If we can criticize Thatcher for not getting over in a PWG setting where some have theorized anti-CZW sentiment fueled contempt, is it not fair to criticize someone who is praised as an all time great by many, for half assing it and not getting over nearly as much outside of NJPW? One would think the argument about failure to adapt/adjust to crowds would be universal and not just something used to take shots at niche indie guys and WWE workers.

Didn't see much of the JAPW/New Japan shows a couple years ago. But Tanahashi does get over in the UK and what I've seen on Twitter Okada blew people's minds at the big Rev-Pro tonight in the UK.

 

Thatcher's record on the other hand in front of various crowds is spotty. It is also worth noting that Thatcher eventually won over the PWG crowd. People here are running away with the PWG crowd are horrible narrative. I received PWG BOLA in the post on Friday will probably watch a lot of it tomorrow. I suggest people withold judgement until they see the match in question.

 

As a general rule if you are going work PWG you really should have one or two cool spots either high spots or comedy as an ice breaker.

 

Criticizing him for the lack of effort is one thing, but you bring up a more interesting point - in front of a crowd that knew them all, Tanahashi got a much smaller reaction than the others mentioned. Presumably, this was a crowd pretty well acquainted with all of them, and particularly Tanahashi's track record. Might have been that they had lower expectations given his opponent and position on card, or maybe Tanahashi doesn't translate as well as other NJPW stars to North America.

That show was a really weird one. The crowd reactions for matches between what people on iPPV heard and what people who attended it live said they were in a completely different orders. It was just a case of the crowd mics were turned down or turned off it was that sound levels kept changing on the iPPV. I suggest if you are talking about the ROH/NJPW War of the Worlds. I stress that people should go off the live accounts of people who attended. If you base what Tanahashi is or isn't based off what you heard on the iPPV that night you might not come to the correct conclusion. That said Liger was super over for sure both live andon iPPV.

[dawho5]

Alright, why not try approaching this from a completely different angle?

 

Let's say somebody like Ric Flair or (we are on PWO after all) Jerry Lawler were confronted with a crowd reacting with something unwanted during a match during the 80s or 70s respectively. Do they play into said reaction and continually do so, allowing the crowd to condition them? Or do they find a way to get the crowd to do what they want?

 

Is the former a better reaction because it may be better for business? If you give the crowd what they clearly came in looking for there is a much better chance they will come back. But at the same time, wrestlers have been conditioning audiences for years and people kept showing up.

 

So maybe this really comes down to each of our individual reactions to these crowd chants and our perceptions of the motivation behind them. Or maybe there is something to it. But if that's the case, it involves both the wrestlers working in the ring (who have some control over what the crowd does) and the crowd itself. Continuing the way this argument has mostly gone is a dead end. Once an argument reaches that point, it's usually better to dig deeper into the reasons behind whatever is being argued rather than rehash the same points.

[Phil Schneider]

Thatcher never worked PWG, and Gulak never worked Busick in PWG. What are you guys even talking about?

[Blehschmidt]

I believe the comment was based on the fans booing the team of Gulak and Busick on night 2 of BOLA when they wrestled Fish and O'Reilly. Though I think the booing was based more on the CZW chants started by someone in the crowd than on the actual work of Gulak or Busick.

 

The conversation just kind of spiraled out of control after that.

[W2BTD]

 

 

Well, obviously they didn't think it was great. Thatcher got booed at CZW, too. That style is a hard sell, especially at a PWG show.

The BOLA reaction was an anti-CZW thing. The past page and a bit are biased people criticising other people for being biased. Fact of the matter is Thatcher isn't the most charismatic wrestler in the World and you can't control a crowd (with reason) you are a poor professional. If the promotion and person were different people would be talking about how he was EXPOSED.

Like how Tanahashi was exposed v. Mike Bennett?

 

 

Tanahashi didn't get booed out of the building, so I don't understand the comparison.

 

He worked a Mike Bennett match vs Mike Bennett. Everybody groaned when the match was announced because Bennett stinks, and I think we all got the match we thought we would, which was a typical 3-star Mike Bennett nothing match.

 

There is a clear pattern of Thatcher, Gulak, & Busick not doing well in front of certain crowds. It isn't an easy style to adjust to. Many people (myself being one of them) find it extremely boring. It takes a while for new shit to get over sometimes. Maybe this eventually will. Gabe Sapolsky seems think it will. Who knows? Right now, it's over in Beyond Wrestling, which is mostly other wrestlers (I still don't really completely understand what Beyond is, with shows with no fans, "secret" shows, etc or how they make money). It sort of got over at EVOLVE in Florida, but the crowds were more polite than super into what was happening.

 

I think for the style to work, the psychology has to be better. As it is, these guys sort of just chain wrestle, then work holds, and then somebody taps out of nowhere 20 minutes in. If they are working towards these submissions, then it's been lost on me and a lot of other people. Then again, i'm usually so bored that I zone out, so maybe i'm not paying close enough attention, which is entirely possible.

[BillThompson]

I believe the comment was based on the fans booing the team of Gulak and Busick on night 2 of BOLA when they wrestled Fish and O'Reilly. Though I think the booing was based more on the CZW chants started by someone in the crowd than on the actual work of Gulak or Busick.

 

The conversation just kind of spiraled out of control after that.

 

Yeah, this is what I was talking about, and I made sure to emphasize that Thatcher has never worked PWG despite being right there for so many years and it probably has everything to do with that style not being preferred by PWG fans.