<Split> The decline of Vince McMahon

[Loss]

I have never gotten the sense at all that the writers set the creative direction. They take the blame when it goes badly, and Vince gets the credit when it goes well. I surmise that a WWE writer is more likely to be told "Script lines that Kane can say while attacking Daniel Bryan and Brie Bella in their rental car" than he is "Come up with ideas to get the Bryan-Kane feud over."

[Loss]

We can't ignore technology as a factor in any Vince Mcmahon 'decline' conversation. I am not surprised as The same thing happened to Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson understood music. He know what worked and what didn't work. When Invincible came out in 2001- the landscape changed. MJ was not ready for the 21st century and didn't handle it well. Despite selling 8 million copies in its first year of release, having 2 two twenty singles in the U.S., and being in the top ten highest selling albums of 2010- MJ/the world considered Invincible a 'flop'. So what did MJ do? Did he learn to adapt to the new technology and foster it to increase sales, etc? No. He started bitching and moaning while refusing to perform anything new off of Invincible, refusing to tour, etc. So how does this relate to the P.T. Barnum of Sports Entertainment?

 

Vince Mcmahon is a carny from a period in time we will probably never see again. Vince was use to working a certain way for a very long time. Vince right now is living in a world were PPV doesn't mean what is use to mean and cable is on the way out. People are watching and interacting with the product in different ways and WWE hasn't quite figured out whats going on in that regard. Look at the way WWE has handled The Network. WWE feels that it is right to slam people for NOT having The Network instead of looking at the technical complications some will need to over-come in order to properly order/view/use The Network. WWE also doesn't understand that its in competition with Youtube and other video sites. Once WWE realizes that Youtube and a bunch of underground video sites have some of the PPVs in full (WWE likes to cut out matches for some reason), perhaps they will make the need changes to The Network as its positioned as the authority for wrestling viewing, but is lacking in essential areas (as again specially relating to shows) that is currently hurting The Network and will continue to hurt them in the long run.

 

Vince Mcmahon is from the era where cable meant something and The Network is being ran like a cable channel despite existing on the internet. WWE and technology disconnects go outside of The Network and have found its way into the on-air product and the true assement of the product. Pro wrestling is such an interesting business because only in the wrestling business is the 'internet' a bad thing. Because of this belief, WWE/Vince have not full embraced it and any criticism is immediately chalked up to 'Oh its just the intenet!". The sad thing is that men in their 50's and 60's have conned men/women in their teens and 20's to believe that the internet is a bad thing when it comes to pro wrestling and the forward thinking views expressed online (in some cases) are just by a bunch of 12 year old jaded kids with no education. When these '12 year old kids' show up the show and start booing Orton/Batista plans and other things they don't like- Vince's immediate reaction is 'oh its just the internet trying to hijack the show!' and not 'Oh fuck! WWE fans don't want to see this!'. Orton/Batista is a bad example as WWE called an audible and went accordingly from there but how many times in just the last decade has WWE shown to be out-of-touch with what's really going on in the world and with what the fans really want because of its distrust and hatered of the internet?

 

Running The Networking like a cable company, making fun of those who {for technical reasons} do not have the network instead of figuring out a solution to the technical challenges, downplaying the impact/usefulness of the internet in the 21st century and the opinions fostered from that medium, and the over promoting of social media are all problems. I didn't really touche on social media, but I will say this- I know WWE has a bunch of social media accounts- and its fine to plug them. But I honestly believe that WWE plus its social media more times in a 3 hour Monday night show then The NFL, NBA, UFC, NHL, and others. OH BUT THEY NEED TO PROMOTE~! Bullshit. It comes off as grand-dad trying to be hip and reminding you that he is in touch with the youngsters.

 

This post is pretty incredible. You've found a way to articulate a lot of things that have always swarmed in my mind as incomplete thoughts. Bravo to you.

[flyonthewall2983]

I'm actually in the process (somewhat, not sure if I'll actually go through with it) with writing a very comprehensive look at 2014. I do think that this year, with the Network, and the Batista/Punk/Bryan/Streak stories and the TV rights campaign being regarded by most industry insiders as a bit of a flop, is the most important year, both on-screen and off, since 2001, if not 96'-97', if not 84'. The amount of industry shake-ups between January and today is just incredible and much of it is not positive for the WWE.

 

I don't think the "sky is falling" regarding the demise of the WWE, though. I think it is too profitable, too popular, and too big to sink...but I do think this year has, at the very least and in a weird way, put a spotlight on what things WOULD need to happen to possibly end the WWE, for example, if the Network subscriber base shrinks by 50% *and* ratings drop by another 50% *and* the next time TV rights come up, USA/NBC ain't interested *and* if the WWE fails to elevate anyone post-Cena or post-Lesnar *and* the US economy takes another major hit and it has a negative effect on house show gates and merch sales. Basically, all of these things (and more?) would have to happen which is pretty unlikely, but 2014 was the first year I think I saw (and maybe the WWE sees) that there is actually a set of dominoes that could (however unlikely) fall.

 

(Not to mention the ridiculously overblown and meaningless reports about investors possibly buying out the WWE - something that could, if it were ever to happen [probably never, but maybe decades from now], put them in a similar position as WCW by making them just a "brand" under a parent company that would cut their losses much sooner than the McMahons would)

 

I'll be interested in reading what you have to say. I think the most possible of your doomsday scenarios is USA/NBC dropping off, especially if Vince asks for what he did this year the next time their contract goes up.

[NintendoLogic]

Actually, 1998 more than 1996 is the most profitable year in WCW history. For a long time, it was the most profitable year any wrestling company had ever had. I'm guessing WWE has had more than a $55 million profit at some point in the last few years but I know they still hadn't as late as 2006 or 2007.

 

I will look in old WONs, but I'm not sure if the WWF has ever ended a year in the red. It's possible they haven't, which is another credit to Vince.

 

The WWF ended fiscal 1997 (that is, the year ending April 30, 1997) in the red. But like you said, their financial troubles were over once they raised the prices on the IYH PPVs.

[Sean Liska]

Here's one other thing to consider when talking about the idea of WWE ever going anywhere. According to Meltzer, there was a period in 2009 when TNA was profitable. This is a company that couldn't get anyone to come to their live shows, that couldn't get anyone to buy PPVs, that had bad contracts on the books, that was receiving a fraction of the rights fees from Spike that WWE can command, and yet the economics of being a content provider in this era are so advantageous, they stumbled into making money. That's how far WWE can fall and still be successful. They have very few fixed costs. They can fall to near-2009 TNA levels of popularity and still make money when you look at all of their international TV deals and revenue streams.

[Shining Wiz]

You can't really say that TNA made a profit at X income, therefore WWE could do the same. They're completely different companies with different expense structures.

 

If WWE fell to TNA levels of popularity, it would be in the middle of it's death spiral, or at the very least a MASSIVE downsizing such that it would be unrecognizable.

[sek69]

As a video game fan, WWE sometimes reminds me of Nintendo in that they are constantly subject of stories filled with doom and gloom yet somehow still manage to keep on keeping on and make money. The difference of course is that Nintendo makes products geared toward their most loyal fanbase and each game is pretty much a license to print money. It's actually kind of impressive in a way how WWE keeps telling their fans that they don't know what they want, only WWE knows what they really want despite it getting rejected time and time again. As stated before, they've managed to build a thick wall of denial where any and all criticism of their booking is nothing but kids on the internet.

[fakeplastictrees]

 

We can't ignore technology as a factor in any Vince Mcmahon 'decline' conversation. I am not surprised as The same thing happened to Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson understood music. He know what worked and what didn't work. When Invincible came out in 2001- the landscape changed. MJ was not ready for the 21st century and didn't handle it well. Despite selling 8 million copies in its first year of release, having 2 two twenty singles in the U.S., and being in the top ten highest selling albums of 2010- MJ/the world considered Invincible a 'flop'. So what did MJ do? Did he learn to adapt to the new technology and foster it to increase sales, etc? No. He started bitching and moaning while refusing to perform anything new off of Invincible, refusing to tour, etc. So how does this relate to the P.T. Barnum of Sports Entertainment?

 

Vince Mcmahon is a carny from a period in time we will probably never see again. Vince was use to working a certain way for a very long time. Vince right now is living in a world were PPV doesn't mean what is use to mean and cable is on the way out. People are watching and interacting with the product in different ways and WWE hasn't quite figured out whats going on in that regard. Look at the way WWE has handled The Network. WWE feels that it is right to slam people for NOT having The Network instead of looking at the technical complications some will need to over-come in order to properly order/view/use The Network. WWE also doesn't understand that its in competition with Youtube and other video sites. Once WWE realizes that Youtube and a bunch of underground video sites have some of the PPVs in full (WWE likes to cut out matches for some reason), perhaps they will make the need changes to The Network as its positioned as the authority for wrestling viewing, but is lacking in essential areas (as again specially relating to shows) that is currently hurting The Network and will continue to hurt them in the long run.

 

Vince Mcmahon is from the era where cable meant something and The Network is being ran like a cable channel despite existing on the internet. WWE and technology disconnects go outside of The Network and have found its way into the on-air product and the true assement of the product. Pro wrestling is such an interesting business because only in the wrestling business is the 'internet' a bad thing. Because of this belief, WWE/Vince have not full embraced it and any criticism is immediately chalked up to 'Oh its just the intenet!". The sad thing is that men in their 50's and 60's have conned men/women in their teens and 20's to believe that the internet is a bad thing when it comes to pro wrestling and the forward thinking views expressed online (in some cases) are just by a bunch of 12 year old jaded kids with no education. When these '12 year old kids' show up the show and start booing Orton/Batista plans and other things they don't like- Vince's immediate reaction is 'oh its just the internet trying to hijack the show!' and not 'Oh fuck! WWE fans don't want to see this!'. Orton/Batista is a bad example as WWE called an audible and went accordingly from there but how many times in just the last decade has WWE shown to be out-of-touch with what's really going on in the world and with what the fans really want because of its distrust and hatered of the internet?

 

Running The Networking like a cable company, making fun of those who {for technical reasons} do not have the network instead of figuring out a solution to the technical challenges, downplaying the impact/usefulness of the internet in the 21st century and the opinions fostered from that medium, and the over promoting of social media are all problems. I didn't really touche on social media, but I will say this- I know WWE has a bunch of social media accounts- and its fine to plug them. But I honestly believe that WWE plus its social media more times in a 3 hour Monday night show then The NFL, NBA, UFC, NHL, and others. OH BUT THEY NEED TO PROMOTE~! Bullshit. It comes off as grand-dad trying to be hip and reminding you that he is in touch with the youngsters.

 

This post is pretty incredible. You've found a way to articulate a lot of things that have always swarmed in my mind as incomplete thoughts. Bravo to you.

 

 

 

I correct a few typos (what can I say? I type and then more on) to make for a clearer read.

 

 

Re: Sek69

 

BlackBerry had the same thought process. In the early 2000's BB stock was in the 200's and now in 2014 the stock is selling under 10 dollars. The refused to adapt and when the customers were telling them what they want- BB was saying 'Oh! I hear you! But let me show/tell you want you REALLY want and what you REALLY mean by your assumed wants/needs!'. It took some time but eventually that type of thing bit them in the ass. If WWE keeps going on with the back-talk to the internet and the backwards application used (in some cases) in association with its product- its not going to be beautiful.

[NintendoLogic]

To me, the fact that TNA managed to draw a profit indicates that being consistently profitable in this day and age isn't that much of an accomplishment.

 

Also, for the record, Vince didn't sell out MSG for 30 years. Not even close.

[chrislatimer]

Vince is an old man now so of course a decline is going to happen. He has not been able to evolve to life without competition and the overall drop off in house shows and tv ratings shows this.

 

It's not 1998 no more vince doesnt have carte blanche over his company like he did back then. hes beholden to stockholders now and the change in culture worldwide has meant he had to go pg and you will never draw more people with pg than you would by being edgy (attitude era)

 

No one will ever make vince retire but while i am grateful for vince for making wwe the juggernaunt it is today i am glad hhh is taking more of an active role in the company and NXT gives me hope for the future of wwe it really does.

[The Thread Killer]

 

Not trying to pick a fight, but for as much criticism as Vince gets -- remember that he beat Sam Muchnick, Bill Watts, Fritz Von Erich, Eddie Graham, Verne Gagne, Jim Crockett, Paul Heyman, Ted Turner ... Vince won every single time.

 

 

OT and not trying to be nit picky, but McMahon didn't put Sam Muchnick out of business. He probably would have, but Muchnick quit after his wife passed away and he found it hard to motivate himself to go to work. He was also reportedly sick of being President of the NWA and having to referee squabbles between promoters. He was also unhappy with how the NWA Championship was being booked as he apparently saw it as devaluing the title.

 

It's also very possible that Muchnick saw the writing on the wall and didn't want to go to war with McMahon, but technically, he got out before McMahon could push him out. And I personally think McMahon would have had a hard time getting Muchnick out, because the man was no dummy and he seemed to inspire a lot of loyalty from those who worked for him.

[JerryvonKramer]

That's a fair point actually.

 

I just sub-consciously equated Vince running St. Louis in 1984 with Larry Matysik in his direct employ as a "win" for Vince. But it's true that Muchnick was technically out by then.

 

It's also true that WWF struggled for years in St. Louis.

 

It also may be true that I just threw Muchnick in there as extra weight -- got a bit carried away and veered into rhetoric.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm all for people pulling out the numbers. I'd be very interested to see.

 

You're the one who made the claim!

 

These are Vince's worst years:

 

1994 - 1995 : $87,352,000 : -$4,431,000

1995 - 1996 : $85,815,000 : $3,319,000

1996 - 1997 : $81,863,000 : $6,505,000

[JerryvonKramer]

It's interesting to see how the revenue declines there as the profit increases. Looks like a scaling down of operations / cost cutting.

 

Do we have revenue data for New Japan? Did Inoki ever have a year where revenue was $80m+?

[broccoman]

I'll say this- the Donald Sterling comparison was unfair. Al Davis would have been better.

 

The reason I think it's different now is because of age and arrogance that comes with knocking off all your competition. Vince was at his best when he had someone to beat. Who is he trying to beat now?

 

As much as HHH brings his own set of flaws to the table, I think he gets the modern wrestling landscape in a way Vince no longer does, and you do need the wrestling fans to tide you over until your next big thing comes. Part of the issue is the current environment , it's near impossible to become the next big thing , unless you somehow manage to put a transcendent talent in a body Vince likes- and we haven't had that since John Cena.

[kjh]

From old observers:

 

In 1995, New Japan drew 1,084,066 fans in 164 shows (that's including shows that are really New Japan shows but weren't New Japan in name such as Anton Promotions, Heisei Ishingun and a few late year UWFI shows) for an average of 6,610 fans per show which is probably the highest average per year for any promotion that runs a regular (as opposed to once monthly) schedule in at least the recent history of wrestling. It's a whopping 42.9% increase over averaging 4,627 in 1994. The company averaged about 5,000 in 1993.

 

By comparison, the WWF in 1995 averaged 3,039 fans per house show, at much lower ticket prices.

[pol]

From old observers:

 

In 1995, New Japan drew 1,084,066 fans in 164 shows (that's including shows that are really New Japan shows but weren't New Japan in name such as Anton Promotions, Heisei Ishingun and a few late year UWFI shows) for an average of 6,610 fans per show which is probably the highest average per year for any promotion that runs a regular (as opposed to once monthly) schedule in at least the recent history of wrestling. It's a whopping 42.9% increase over averaging 4,627 in 1994. The company averaged about 5,000 in 1993.

 

By comparison, the WWF in 1995 averaged 3,039 fans per house show, at much lower ticket prices.

 

Interesting. I'd imagine WWE ran significantly more shows than New Japan, though? But given the size of the country I'd assume New Japan would be forced to run the same buildings much more frequently than the WWF...

[The Thread Killer]

That's a fair point actually.

 

I just sub-consciously equated Vince running St. Louis in 1984 with Larry Matysik in his direct employ as a "win" for Vince. But it's true that Muchnick was technically out by then.

 

It's also true that WWF struggled for years in St. Louis.

 

It also may be true that I just threw Muchnick in there as extra weight -- got a bit carried away and veered into rhetoric.

 

Have you read "Wrestling at the Chase?" It's actually quite interesting - which in itself as a feat, since I find Larry Matysik's writing style to be maddening. The way Muchnick is painted in that book, he was pretty fair with the wrestlers regarding pay and what was there was there when it came to his word. Kind of reminds me of how people speak of Baba - but no Motoko for Sam.

 

Flipping through the book again, I actually get the impression that Vince took Muchnick's retirement in January 1982 as a kind of greenlight to start his expansion. I wonder if Muchnick had stayed around - do you think things would have ended up any different for the NWA?

[JerryvonKramer]

I haven't read Wrestling at the Chase, but I have listened to about 20+ hours of Larry Matysik running through the booking sheets on 57talk.com.

[Steve Gennarelli]

I think Vince is like most of the great performers turned bookers over the past 30-40 years.

 

I think he was so enamored of his run on top with "Stone Cold" and the 10 years that followed milking that gimmick

with an over the hill Hulk Hogan, Zach Gowan, the Divas, Bret Hart and countless others. He is so obsessed with

"The Attitude Era" that its put a cramp on what he's doing with today's talent.

 

Now mind you, some of what they were trying to do like make Daniel Bryan the champ were good decisions.

They just had bad luck with him and Reigns getting injured at the worst possible time. It's just a shame that for whatever

reason their TV has just gotten so awful.

 

I think because the past 10 years of WWE and pro wrestling in general have been so unmemorable that guys

who would be our future Superstars are no longer inspired to want to be a part of it. The Kurt Angles, Edge & Christians

and other guys like that who were inspired by the 80's superstars...they have no one coming up to take their place partly

because wrestling has become so antiquated as far as being a hot ticket item. The Monday Night Wars were exciting

times, but that was so long ago...There are so few left to pick up the mantle.

 

So its not all Vince living in the past...the oddball athletes who went into wrestling for quick cash and a wild

lifestyle are not as available as they once were.

[iamthedoctor]

Is it me or did anyone else think when Vince came back just before Survivor series he looked quite ill.

[kjh]

 

From old observers:

 

In 1995, New Japan drew 1,084,066 fans in 164 shows (that's including shows that are really New Japan shows but weren't New Japan in name such as Anton Promotions, Heisei Ishingun and a few late year UWFI shows) for an average of 6,610 fans per show which is probably the highest average per year for any promotion that runs a regular (as opposed to once monthly) schedule in at least the recent history of wrestling. It's a whopping 42.9% increase over averaging 4,627 in 1994. The company averaged about 5,000 in 1993.

 

By comparison, the WWF in 1995 averaged 3,039 fans per house show, at much lower ticket prices.

 

Interesting. I'd imagine WWE ran significantly more shows than New Japan, though? But given the size of the country I'd assume New Japan would be forced to run the same buildings much more frequently than the WWF...

 

 

Yes, WWE would have run more shows due to regularly running two tours simultaneously until mid October 1995 when they scrapped the second tour for cost cutting reasons.

[BigBadMick]

Is it me or did anyone else think when Vince came back just before Survivor series he looked quite ill.

Certainly looks to have lost a lot of weight anyway.

[Sidebottom]

Is it me or did anyone else think when Vince came back just before Survivor series he looked quite ill.

 

Ill? A man who is 70 in a few months who had a childlike energy coming to the ring on these last few appearances? Can't say I noticed it. Does he look like he is ready to burst out of skin like in the 90's? No. But ill is a stretch.

[rzombie1988]

I don't think Vince is as good as he used to be. It doesn't take away what he accomplished.

 

WWE has been basically the same since the brand split. The format is the same and a lot of the top guys are as well. Big Show, Cena, Hunter, Orton, Kane, Rey, sometimes Brock, sometimes RVD, sometimes Jericho, sometimes The Rock, once a year The Undertaker, etc.

 

I'd say the best stuff out of the last 10 years were Evolution(though not HHH's reign), The Shield, Nexus and Punk's summer run up to his MITB match with Cena.

 

The big problem and wrestling's big problem as a whole is a failure to keep talent fresh and create new stars. Every promotion I can think of now mostly has the same top guys they had 10 years ago. The only promotion I can really think of that solved that problem was All Japan Women, though they likely also lost a lot of money by forcing people to retire. A promotion that can constantly create new stars will never lose.

 

Vince's best and dumbest move will forever be killing the territories. Instead of constantly keeping a supply of gold coming in, Vince took the gold all in two swings and now doesn't have a source. Had he figured out a way to keep the promotions he destroyed open, he likely could have kept his own personal territory system and had new stars for years. He also could have kept things fresh by sending stars to his other territories while bringing in stars from those territories to take their place.