JerryvonKramer Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Would it be fair to say that he's one of very few guys who could legit build three entirely separate slamdunk Hall of Fame cases? 1. As wrestler, 2. As promoter, 3. As trainer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Would it be fair to say that he's one of very few guys who could legit build three entirely separate slamdunk Hall of Fame cases? 1. As wrestler, 2. As promoter, 3. As trainer? I think he's the only one who could offhand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Would it be fair to say that he's one of very few guys who could legit build three entirely separate slamdunk Hall of Fame cases? 1. As wrestler, 2. As promoter, 3. As trainer? I think he's the only one who could offhand. Maybe Inoki? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 It's an iffy statistic because most promoters didn't train people themselves, no? Unless it's more general when it came to "developing talent and characters in their territory." At that point, I guess maybe it depends on how much credit you give to Jarrett/Lawler pairing for Hogan and the RnRs, etc (and even then only one gets in as a wrestler). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 It's an iffy statistic because most promoters didn't train people themselves, no? Unless it's more general when it came to "developing talent and characters in their territory." At that point, I guess maybe it depends on how much credit you give to Jarrett/Lawler pairing for Hogan and the RnRs, etc (and even then only one gets in as a wrestler). Verne was the actual trainer for guys like Iron Sheik, Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair. Inoki I'm less sure on because NJ Dojo had a lot of trainers, but he's credited as being the trainer of, for example, The Three Musketeers (Chono, Mutah, Hashimoto) as well as Tatsumi Fujinami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 It's an iffy statistic because most promoters didn't train people themselves, no? Unless it's more general when it came to "developing talent and characters in their territory." At that point, I guess maybe it depends on how much credit you give to Jarrett/Lawler pairing for Hogan and the RnRs, etc (and even then only one gets in as a wrestler). Verne was the actual trainer for guys like Iron Sheik, Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair. Inoki I'm less sure on because NJ Dojo had a lot of trainers, but he's credited as being the trainer of, for example, The Three Musketeers (Chono, Mutah, Hashimoto) as well as Tatsumi Fujinami. I get that (though as you listed in the other thread, he had Brad and Billy there training them a lot of the time too). It's that he's the exception not the rule when it came to training guys himself. You don't see Vince, Sr, or Don Owen doing that. Not even Bill Watts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Ultimo Dragon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Ultimo Dragon? Man you're asking for trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Ultimo Dragon? Man you're asking for trouble. It was mostly a joke, but he was successful at all 3 which very few have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 In addition to Ultimo Dragon, Gran Hamada and Taka Michinoku have done all three, although both fall short of Hall of Fame level in at least one of the categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Vince as promoter and commentator for sure. Booker would be three, but im not sure how to lay that out as a HoF case for him. Performer would be four if you want to be generous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conker8 Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Dory Funk ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Never mind my post if it's limited to just those 3 options Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Would it be fair to say that he's one of very few guys who could legit build three entirely separate slamdunk Hall of Fame cases? 1. As wrestler, 2. As promoter, 3. As trainer? I think he's the only one who could offhand. Maybe Inoki? Did Inoki do any training? I mean Kotetsu Yamamoto was the main trainer of the New Japan dojo for a long time and before that I think it was Karl Gotch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Fujiwara it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 On a much smaller scale promotionally, but Yuki Ishikawa (BattlARTS) and Daisuke Ikeda (FUTEN)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Inoki wasn't a real trainer, as others have pointed out. One can also debate whether he's really a HOF level promoter. Office credit probably is more warranted towards Hisashi Shinma in the 70s into the early 80s when Inoki was at his prime. "Promoter" is a bit limiting. Choshu wasn't exactly a "promoter" in New Japan, but he was the key "office" / "management" person during their 90s run. Patterson wasn't a promoter, but one could argue that he is at least a borderline office/management HOF candidate. * * * * * "Trainer" has always been a problematic HOF category. Loads of people take credit as the "trainer" of a wrestler. How much time they actually spent training said wrestler is debatable. Then taking all that the people they trained, and trying to figure out how much credit falls back to the trainer, tends to be pretty spurious. Someone trained Richard Fliehr. The "Ric Flair" that came out of that training process had a rather small amount to do with the Ric Flair who is a HOFer. Most of Flair's training came on the job in Mid-Atlantic. A chunk of the balance was observational: stuff he saw Stevens and Bockwinkel and others do that he pulled into how he worked. Does the person who "trained" Scott Hall deserve any credit for what Scott turned into? Not a hell of a lot. He was pretty shitty in Florida and in the AWA, and not much better when first coming to WCW. He clicked a little bit of the way with the Diamond Studd persona, then clicked to the full degree as Razor. Anyone think his trainer did such a great job with him that it took 8 years for him to find himself fully as Razor? I'm not going to say that "trainer" is an utterly overrated concept. But from a HOF standpoint, it's of pretty marginal significance. I wouldn't even count it as being significant enough to warrant being part of a "trifecta". The important one would be people who did The Double: HOF level as a wrestler / performer and HOF level as a office person (Owner / Promoter / Booker). There have been of course a number of people who are Doubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Dory Funk ? If you're talking Junior, I don't think his booking runs amount to much of a HoF case. He'd be on for a "double" wrestler / trainer one though, notwithstanding reservations about the "trainer" category. I think if ANYONE gets in on the strength of being a trainer though, Verne has got to be top of the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Vince as promoter and commentator for sure. Booker would be three, but im not sure how to lay that out as a HoF case for him. Performer would be four if you want to be generous. That's a good one Kelly. Even if you take "Promoter / Booker / Office" as a category like the Sith Lord says, he's still more or less a slamdunk in the other three: 1. Commentator, 2. Promoter, 3. Onscreen Villain (and box office draw) -- don't think being one of the biggest heels of all time in one of the biggest money feuds of all time is a difficult case to make. This is a hard one though. Bill Watts possibly as Wrestler / Promoter / Commentator? Paul Heyman as Manager / Promoter / Commentator? To have three strong strings to the bow is tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Who did Verne really train? Was he the guy there training those wrestlers all the time? Or did other people run the training process? I never got the sense that Verne was even as hands on as Stu Hart, whose training candidacy as a HOF has long been poked at by people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 If I remember correctly, Ric Flair said in his book that Billy Robinson was the guy who actually trained Flair and the rest of his class at Verne's camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Manager and PBP/Commentator would be with Wrestler in the Performer group. Office would be Owner / Promoter / Booker and arguably Trainer. It's not unreasonable to say Vince did the Double. Clearly as a Promoter, and one certainly could make a case as a Performer as Mr. McMahon being the lead heel of an insanely hot promotion. I'd buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 So we shouldn't believe the stories from Steamboat and Iron Sheik about Verne having them climb up the steps with just their arms? And all the other stuff that has been peddled over the years? The reality is with most schools (surely) is that there are going to be multiple guys involved in the actual training. Maybe Verne one day, maybe Robinson the next. Or maybe Verne did fitness and Robinson did mat skills. Or whatever. Who knows? Verne certainly gets credited with training an awful lot of people though, probably because it was called the "Verne Gagne Wrestling School". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Manager and PBP/Commentator would be with Wrestler in the Performer group. That's not true though is it? Lance Russell doesn't go in the same category as Jerry Lawler does he? I thought there was a non-wrestler section of the ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_Observer_Newsletter_Hall_of_Fame Managing, Commentating and so on are treated differently. Seems weird that jdw would question that given that ... he helped make that initial 1996 list. Interestingly, Verne is not in as a trainer but Stu Hart is. Vince didn't get a commentary credit in 1996, but Paul Boesch did. Heyman only went in as a promoter in 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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